Third Level Fees

Pub07

Id imagine the chances of these returning have been going up dramatically in the last few months. I dont think its a bad idea for the people who can afford it to pay, ie leaving cert students where both parents are working and earning well above the average for example. But surely they cant take free fees away from the people who would otherwise be unable to return to college - kids from very low income families, unemployed people returnind to college as mature students? What do you think, will they bring back fees and if so will everyone be hit or just the people who can afford it?

turgon

Well people from disadvantaged families get grants and that would cover them.

And fees have been reintroduced, thats why the "registration" fee went up by €600, when how could the price of "registration" have gone up at all?? You couldnt make it up really.

Bottle_of_Smoke

We have fees. Approx €1500 per year. Pretty close to half what's paid in the north.

I think these fees should be paid after the course is completed in the form of a loan. €1500 is a lot of money for someone from a poor background

Het-Field

Pub07 wrote: »

Id imagine the chances of these returning have been going up dramatically in the last few months. I dont think its a bad idea for the people who can afford it to pay, ie leaving cert students where both parents are working and earning well above the average for example. But surely they cant take free fees away from the people who would otherwise be unable to return to college - kids from very low income families, unemployed people returnind to college as mature students? What do you think, will they bring back fees and if so will everyone be hit or just the people who can afford it?

Problem is, if you use this concept of "people who can pay, should pay", it will only create a "drop in the ocean" money, and it will have ramifications on those who live in University Cities. Furthermore, it will mostly hit PAYE workers, who are already being taxed heavily, with more likely to come in these troubling times. Imagine, could a middle ranking civil servant and a teacher afford to pay to put three children through college at the same time ??? I doubt it. It would become a form of affirmative action for those who cannot afford to pay at all, i.e if you cant pay then come on in...however, if you are on a decent salary, but have plenty of children around the same age...and there is more than just their education burdening your salary, then its your fault for earning too much. Also, under "the those who can pay should", one group of people will be getting free third level fees, and a grant...while others

The reality is, if the Government want to make any money from this, it will have to be a cross the board return. There is no point in bringing college fees back for some if there is no money to be made


Top Up Fees or Corporate Sponsorship and funding is the way to go. It is no longer sustainable to keep thrid level fees, without anything mitigating the loss to the college purses

ongarite

I'm not against the re-introduction of fees as the colleges need the funding to remain compettive internationally.

I think a good idea would be introduce fees with the course fee to be paid up front and then a performance related refund on completion of said course.

If you piss around and fail your course, then you get nothing back.
You work hard and get a great mark, you get fees back or high percentage of it back.

Pub07

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

We have fees. Approx €1500 per year. Pretty close to half what's paid in the north.

I think these fees should be paid after the course is completed in the form of a loan. €1500 is a lot of money for someone from a poor background

That €1500 is nothing compared to what it would cost if they got rid of the Free Fees Initiative. You'd be looking at another €6000-€7000 on top of it, every year.

Kama

I'd agree Ongar, a financial incentive would work wonders...Behaioural economics would I believe back you up on this...

It's only nominaly free atm, we already has fees as was said. There's a sound economic argument that the middleclass was being subsidised, capturing the benefits and reallocating the cash; free fees is a shibboleth of the Left, as an end in itself; a socialist equity argument as a front for more material interests, imho.

brianthebard

The people who've benefitted most from free fees are not the people they were designed to benefit; there needs to be more help given to the less well off students, and a means test for those that can afford to pay fees. Het-field, do you really think that the family earning 80,000 can't better afford to send multiple children through university than the family on 25,000? Nonsense.

titan18

ongarite wrote: »

I'm not against the re-introduction of fees as the colleges need the funding to remain compettive internationally.

I think a good idea would be introduce fees with the course fee to be paid up front and then a performance related refund on completion of said course.

If you piss around and fail your course, then you get nothing back.
You work hard and get a great mark, you get fees back or high percentage of it back.

The course fee to be paid up front?So instead of having to come up with €6000 a year, I'd have to get €24000.The incentive at the end of the course is worth it, but it'd still have to be done on an annual basis.If you get good marks at the end of your degree, you can get a percentage of it back then.

As I am in college atm, I am against fees.I think it'd be a terrible thing to bring in, as a lot of students won't be able to afford to go to college anymore.I have to say that some don't deserve the free fees though.In my course, attendance is shocking.They will ultimately pay the price at the end of the day when they fail, but it is unfair that they are getting fees paid for, they have accomadation paid for by their parents, and arent bothered to turn up to classes and put in an effort.

In my course, there are around 150 students enrolled for it.I'd see around 50-70 in a day, and that is only for the main modules.In the minor ones, we have an attendence of around 20-30.

So fees are being paid for these people to go to college and then they dont turn up.The march next Wednesday in Dublin, it's a pissup basically.There are people from my class going up, and staying overnight so they can go clubbing.They're taking 2 days off college so they can drink.This is a disgrace imo.The march itself won't do anything.The government won't be swayed by it.It would have to be something like the French strikes for the Government to take notice of the country.

ninty9er

What's being looked at (and will be discussed with the minister) by an internal review in FF is the idea that a minimal fee be introduced for the wealthy, as well as an increase in income tax for higher earners. There will also be views expressed regarding the entirity of the whole 3rd level system as the 2 are inextricably linked, capital budgets excluded.

Kama

College students tend not to cast ballots, so can be pretty safely ignored, politically...tokenistic politics of impotent mobilization = college politics imo.

ninty9er

Pub07 wrote: »

That €1500 is nothing compared to what it would cost if they got rid of the Free Fees Initiative. You'd be looking at another €6000-€7000 on top of it, every year.

Whether it would be €6k -€7k would depend

a) on the family income
b) on the amount of members of the family in 3rd level
c) on the actual amount charged by each individual college/department within a university/IT

I'd have no problem with a family with 1 child sending them to 3rd level having to pay fees if the income was €75k+

Many pay 2nd level fees on lower incomes, so they should have to cough up too.

brianthebard

Kama wrote: »

College students tend not to cast ballots, so can be pretty safely ignored, politically...tokenistic politics of impotent mobilization = college politics imo.

But its their parents who would be most directly affected, especially parents of children soon to become uni students?

dresden8

You're all forgetting what happened when the fees were there.

Rich farmers and the self-employed who self-declared their earnings qualified for grants whereas low to middle income PAYE people who were caught in the tax net were told to eff off.

Abolition of fees at least got rid of that rip-off.

There's no reason to assume the same won't happen again if fees are re-introduced.

brianthebard

There is because its already been said that the government won't make people earning below I think 100,000 pay fees.

muckety

Its not in the Gov't interest to put obstacles up for people who could go to college, as unemployment is likely to rise steadily. I would think that strategically they should look at alternatives (such as the corporate sponsorship mentioned earlier, or what is currently being discussed as possible mergers/specialisations between the existing colleges) but keep the student charges DOWN.

El Stuntman

student loans are the way forward imo; make them take direct responsibility for their own education.

Dr_Teeth

Free fees is one of the few decent investments the Irish government have ever made. Bringing them back is utter insanity imo. This will create serious economic hardship right across the middle class.

To those who think this government can come up with a perfect set of rules and means tests that makes everything fair and good, I say this: they will **** it up completely. The rich will find a loophole, the poor won't see any difference or won't care, and the middle class will get screwed trying to put 2-3 kids through college at the same time, when they can barely afford registration fees and accomodation as it is.

I will not vote for a party that brings back fees while so much money is being flushed down the toilet elsewhere.

Takenforaride

Students, go on the marches, go for a few pints after and complain into your pint.

Then get up off your lazy arse and Register and Vote.

Then you can do something positive and vote the bastards out !:)

BroomBurner

At least they're marching. They also vote too, when they can. For instance, when polls are not held on a Thursday meaning that they can't make it home then back to college without missing classes and spending money they don't have on train and bus fare.

Soldie

What about the students that support the reintroduction of fees?

*Honey*

I personally agree that fees should be paid by those who can afford it.. perhaps a sliding scale of contribution or something...100% if the family income is 100k, less if less for example.

When I was 18, there was no way I could afford to go to college.. I only did in the end due to the introducion of ESF grants that year. However, I will tell you that I was mostl in the pub for 2 solid years.. not slagging it or me off, I learnt a lot in the meantime and passed my course with a distinction. About 7 years ago, I was determined to get my Degree and paid for it myself, whilst working... as some may know, there has never been anything known as free fees for part-time students so I paid for everything myself. And I worked my ass off and got a 1st class honours Degree of which I'm very proud. The difference was that, this time, I was more more inclined to do something about it because it was hitting me where it hurt, in the pocket.

I work in 3rd level education and the amount of BMW's and even Porsche's I've seen in the student car park astounds me at times... I've been working since I was 14 and I couldn't afford a car like that, ever! So my thinking is that there are a LOT of people who certainly could afford to pay full fees... there are also some that can't and I certainly believe they shouldn't be discriminated against because of this. I believe that paying for something certainly gives a high incentive to make it work... so with a sliding scale of fee payment, dependent on family income is not a bad thing.

Someone earlier said that they already pay fees - you don't, you pay a capitation fee... that goes nowhere near the cost of delivering your course. It maybe covers some of the administration around exams and delivering student services but that's about it. And, believe me, the college concerned will probably not see all of that 1,500 per student anyway.

As a person who's had free fees and had to pay fees, I'd have to agree that actual payment of monies really does focus your attention on your studies - I would be inclined to agree with a sliding scale of fee payment, as long as it was pitched correctly.. with those who are honestly unable to pay, being supported in some fashion.

SeanW

Takenforaride wrote: »

Students, go on the marches, go for a few pints after and complain into your pint.

Then get up off your lazy arse and Register and Vote.

Then you can do something positive and vote the bastards out !:)

Remember that come the next election, the government will (like they did last time and the time before) gerrymander the election time so that students will not be able to vote (if it's a choice between journeying home to vote and possibly missing a final exam, or staying put to do the exam and/or study, which would any sensible student do?)

nesf

SeanW wrote: »

Remember that come the next election, the government will (like they did last time and the time before) gerrymander the election time so that students will not be able to vote (if it's a choice between journeying home to vote and possibly missing a final exam, or staying put to do the exam and/or study, which would any sensible student do?)

Students can vote in their college's constituency, if they couldn't register to do this I'd agree that they are getting screwed over but they can exercise their vote either in their home constituency or their college constituency depending on which would suit them better.

I have a lot more sympathy for people with very long commutes who get no such option.

Pub07

mikemac wrote: »

First of all there aren't that many rich farmers around, in fact there are very few full-time farmers at all. But yes are mega rich examples with connections to meat factories.

Very few full-time farmers? I take it this is still Ireland we're talking about? There are tons of full time farmers in this country, I have alot of relatives and extended relatives who are full time farmers as have 95%+ of the country. I also know loads of full time farmers in the town where I'm originally from, and guys who will be full time farmers when they're parents die and pass on the land. As for being rich, a farmer is almost by default wealthy, you do know how much land is worth dont you? Even with the recession your average farmer is sitting on land worth a small fortune.

Just because they mightn't have much cash in hand doesn't mean they are not rich, €€€ in land is worth the same as €€€ in cash.

sceptre

SeanW wrote: »

(if it's a choice between journeying home to vote and possibly missing a final exam, or staying put to do the exam and/or study, which would any sensible student do?)

A sensible student would set their voting address to where they're actually going to be or apply for a postal vote. Same as a sensible person would do.

ateam

If the middle class can afford to send their children to private secondary schools and weekly grinds, they can afford the college fees.

If you really want to go to college, you'll find the money somewhere.

On a connected point, the amount given to people in the form of "grants" is shocking, thousands upon thousands.

Hillel

ninty9er wrote: »

What's being looked at (and will be discussed with the minister) by an internal review in FF is the idea that a minimal fee be introduced for the wealthy, as well as an increase in income tax for higher earners.

dresden8 wrote: »

You're all forgetting what happened when the fees were there.
Rich farmers and the self-employed who self-declared their earnings qualified for grants whereas low to middle income PAYE people who were caught in the tax net were told to eff off.
Abolition of fees at least got rid of that rip-off.

The grants system is still there for maintenance and the self-employed are still manipulating the system to take advantage of it. The reality is that there is no political will to change this. The problem is well known, and understood. Now ninty9er, that's what I'd like the internal FF review to look at, and "discuss with the minister". Can you help?

nice_guy80

i've no problem with fees - even when i was in college i was in favour of them

but make sure that when parents pay them that they can claim tax credits if their income is below a certain level

there are plenty of people now sending their darlings to fee paying Secondary schools and grinds schools cause Third level is free

Make sure those getting grants are ENTITLED to them - cause half the fcukers i was in college were not entitled to them but got them anyway cause daddy was self employed or a farmer and had a good accountant

students nowadays seem to be very well off - lots of them driving cars into college with no shortage of money, new clothes etc. fecks sake, i remember having to survive on sweet feck all once rent and food was paid for

lucideer

After seeing the reports of 12,000+ students protesting I was fairly surprised. So I've been browsing around online trying to get an idea of whether this is representative of most students opinion or whether it's just a load of ignorant sheep following a few hacks in the USI.

Not that the online opinion would be accurately representative of the majority, but most fora, including this one, seem to have a good few people advocating some form of reintroduction of fees.

Is anyone on here aware of any kind of active movement to represent this side of student opinion publicy? (any "counter protests" or such like)

astrofool

Someone's parents should have nothing to do with their cost of education once they are over 18.