Casting a Spell

Bougeoir

Hey all,

I'm new to boards.ie and I've recently got interested in Wicca. I have done a fair bit of reading but was wondering if anyone has good information about casting circles and spells. I have never done one before and just need some advice! thanks.

Oh by the way I wasn't sure whether this belongs in Paganism or Spirituality so move it if it's in the wrong place.

Cheers.

Nevyn

Are you intrested in the religion of Wicca or in magic ?

Bougeoir

I'm rather interested in both actually! x

Nevyn

Well I would suggest that you start by having a look at these two sticked threads.

What is Wicca ? and a Great book. as both have a lot of good information.

Talliesin

If you're new to boards you probably have your settings for how many threads you see in a forum set to the default (which I think is for the last month only). While grand for keeping up with what's currently being discussed, that's not much use if you want to find out what people think on a subject more generally or get information, especially in the smaller forums, since conversations that may be very useful as far as what you want to read about will be hidden.

So it might be worth either editing your settings to change the default or else using the select-boxes at the top of the forum page to show all the threads. You'll likely find that some of the older threads both answer questions you already have and fill in a few other gaps.

ayapatrick

Bougeoir wrote: »

Hey all,


Oh by the way I wasn't sure whether this belongs in Paganism or Spirituality so move it if it's in the wrong place.

.

any a these spells ever work.??

Talliesin

ayapatrick wrote: »

any a these spells ever work.??

That's sort of the point.

ayapatrick wrote: »

i think i see the CUCKOO flyin round!:eek:

In February? While it's snowing? I don't think you're entirely sane.

Bougeoir

ayapatrick wrote: »

any a these spells ever work.??


i think i see the CUCKOO flyin round!:eek:

Well it's sort of like asking if prayers work. Many faithful people will say they do. I wouldn't dismiss somebody as "cuckoo" for having faith in prayers or spells so quickly.

ayapatrick

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well it's sort of like asking if prayers work. Many faithful people will say they do. I wouldn't dismiss somebody as "cuckoo" for having faith in prayers or spells so quickly.

ah im gonna retract my comment! each to his own!

Bougeoir

ayapatrick wrote: »

ah im gonna retract my comment! each to his own!

Okay each to their own precisely. After all though you're on a Pagan forum what should one expect! lol :P

Nevyn

ayapatrick wrote: »

ah im gonna retract my comment! each to his own!

Good cos I would hate to have to interupt what I am doing and to go and ban you.

Please read the charter of a forum ( which contains the rules and remit of the forum ) before posting, not all forums are the same and some have additional rules, it will save you a lot of bother, enjoy your time on boards.

By the way the site does have a forum called the coocoo's nest you will find it
here.

hmmm are prays spells, I guess that depends on how one defines what a 'spell' is.

Any takers on that one ?

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

Good cos I would hate to have to interupt what I am doing and to go and ban you.

Please read the charter of a forum ( which contains the rules and remit of the forum ) before posting, not all forums are the same and some have additional rules, it will save you a lot of bother, enjoy your time on boards.

By the way the site does have a forum called the coocoo's nest you will find it
here.

hmmm are prays spells, I guess that depends on how one defines what a 'spell' is.

Any takers on that one ?

Wow what a lively forum! haha

Hmmm... it is a good question well I do think they're different but they share common elements in that one has a desire for something and faith in its authenticity and directs energy. But spells are usually more elaborate and structured but prayers and spells can be equally personal. Actually there is probably more repetition and structure in prayers like the way in catholic masses you repeat the same prayers all the time and in Islam likewise. I suppose it's hard to define really and many people would lump spell casting in the same bracket as other forms of worship.

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

Hmmm... it is a good question well I do think they're different but they share common elements in that one has a desire for something and faith in its authenticity and directs energy.

Ok.

Bougeoir wrote: »

But spells are usually more elaborate and structured

How so ?

Bougeoir wrote: »

but prayers and spells can be equally personal.

Agreed.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Actually there is probably more repetition and structure in prayers like the way in catholic masses you repeat the same prayers all the time and in Islam likewise.

So prayers can have ritual is what you are saying ?

Bougeoir wrote: »

I suppose it's hard to define really and many people would lump spell casting in the same bracket as other forms of worship.

But then can not an atheist magician/witch preform a spell ?

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

Ok.



How so ?



Agreed.



So prayers can have ritual is what you are saying ?



But then can not an atheist magician/witch preform a spell ?

Well often spells require many objects and time and only certain ones can be performed at certain times of the moon phases. And you have to do purification first and you have to open and close the circle. It's rather complicated actually. But I suppose many prayer rituals especially Eastern ones can be equally complicated.

Yes some prayers have a ritual rather elaborate ones. Take for example the Sufi Muslims who are a more pagan-like Muslim sect who wear these white robes and hats and do these special dances and everything.

Well anyone can perform a spell but it's a matter of whether one actually believe in it or not. Of course I distinguish spells from other forms of worship because prayers and all that are usually focused upon a higher power like a god whereas spells aren't necessarily so. Although some do believe in separate entities of a god and goddess ect but it is agenerally a more earth, nature focused practice. Well different pagan witches have different beliefs some are seen as atheist because they are pantheist which is the belief that what one calls god is actually synonymous with nature. Well one should distinguish magic from magick. The former refers to the art of deceiving as practised by magicians whereas the latter is moreso an Earth-focused practise of directly energy and desires.

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well often spells require many objects and time and only certain ones can be performed at certain times of the moon phases.

hmmm what makes you think that ?

Bougeoir wrote: »

And you have to do purification first and you have to open and close the circle. It's rather complicated actually.

So you are saying that spells have do be done in a magic circle ?
And that you have to do purification rites before hand ?

Bougeoir wrote: »

Yes some prayers have a ritual rather elaborate ones. Take for example the Sufi Muslims who are a more pagan-like Muslim sect who wear these white robes and hats and do these special dances and everything.

I think ligthing a candle is ritual, prayer and spell work all rolled into one
no matter who is doing it or where if they are doing it to ask for aid to
make a change in the universe.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well anyone can perform a spell but it's a matter of whether one actually believe in it or not. Of course I distinguish spells from other forms of worship because prayers and all that are usually focused upon a higher power like a god whereas spells aren't necessarily so.

What about doing a spell and asking deity to aid the spell work or to
make what is for the best outcome happen ?

Bougeoir wrote: »

Although some do believe in separate entities of a god and goddess ect but it is agenerally a more earth, nature focused practice.

What is generally a more earth based practice ?

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well different pagan witches have different beliefs some are seen as atheist because they are pantheist which is the belief that what one calls god is actually synonymous with nature.

eh pantheist is the belive that many gods exist.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well one should distinguish magic from magick. The former refers to the art of deceiving as practised by magicians whereas the latter is moreso an Earth-focused practise of directly energy and desires.

The art of deceiving ?

No, Alister Crowley added the k on to the work magic to differentiate what he was writing about and practicing from stage magic. Crowley wrote
The standard definition of Magick "the science and the art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will" is Crowley's from MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/

If you are preforming ceremonal magic then some people will add in the k.
Personally I don't bother with it.

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

hmmm what makes you think that ?

So you are saying that spells have do be done in a magic circle ?
And that you have to do purification rites before hand ?

I think ligthing a candle is ritual, prayer and spell work all rolled into one
no matter who is doing it or where if they are doing it to ask for aid to
make a change in the universe.

What about doing a spell and asking deity to aid the spell work or to
make what is for the best outcome happen ?

What is generally a more earth based practice ?

eh pantheist is the belive that many gods exist.

The art of deceiving ?

No, Alister Crowley added the k on to the work magic to differentiate what he was writing about and practicing from stage magic. Crowley wrote
The standard definition of Magick "the science and the art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will" is Crowley's from MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/

If you are preforming ceremonal magic then some people will add in the k.
Personally I don't bother with it.

Oh gosh the questions, the questions! haha well ok you're right spells don't necessarily have to be elaborate and it really is up to the individual on how they choose to perform them even if it is as simple as lighting a candle. Just I generally tend to go with the more structured form of casting a circle and purification rituals and living by the moon phases because I feel it works for me. oh no the pantheist isn't the same as the polytheist who believes in multiple gods. From Wikipedia:

Pantheism (Greek: πάν ( 'pan' ) = all and θεός ( 'theos' ) = God, it literally means "God is All" and "All is God") is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence, and the Universe (the sum total of all that is, was, and shall be) is represented in the theological principle of an abstract 'god' rather than a personal, creative deity or deities of any kind. This is the key feature which distinguishes them from panentheists and pandeists. As such, although many religions may claim to hold pantheistic elements, they are more commonly panentheistic or pandeistic in nature.Link

Myself, I take such a view. I believe that the gods and goddesses depicted are actually more like representations or symbols for aspects of Nature and the world. I don't deny the supernatural especially phenomena of nature which is so profoundly mysterious and there's so much unknown about it.

I just tend to distinguish stage magic by a magician from magick as described above like spells. I think it's because stage magic is really incredibly amazing but is really the art of illusion and it's called magic because people would have originally thought it were supernatural phenomena but now most people will agree it is largely optical illusions.

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

Oh gosh the questions, the questions! haha well ok you're right spells don't necessarily have to be elaborate and it really is up to the individual on how they choose to perform them even if it is as simple as lighting a candle. Just I generally tend to go with the more structured form of casting a circle and purification rituals and living by the moon phases because I feel it works for me.

If it works, it works.

Bougeoir wrote: »

oh no the pantheist isn't the same as the polytheist who believes in multiple gods.

Sorry that was my mistake I keep mixing those two up, damned dyslexia.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Myself, I take such a view. I believe that the gods and goddesses depicted are actually more like representations or symbols for aspects of Nature and the world. I don't deny the supernatural especially phenomena of nature which is so profoundly mysterious and there's so much unknown about it.

I would be a hard polythiest personally.

Bougeoir wrote: »

I just tend to distinguish stage magic by a magician from magick as described above like spells. I think it's because stage magic is really incredibly amazing but is really the art of illusion and it's called magic because people would have originally thought it were supernatural phenomena but now most people will agree it is largely optical illusions.

I dont know about that one, given that magic is an act of will to create a change in the macrocosm of the universe or the microcosm of the phyce of that magician stage magic I would say falls between the two
as the really good ones alter the perceptions of those participating as audience members.

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

If it works, it works.



Sorry that was my mistake I keep mixing those two up, damned dyslexia.



I would be a hard polythiest personally.



I dont know about that one, given that magic is an act of will to create a change in the macrocosm of the universe or the microcosm of the phyce of that magician stage magic I would say falls between the two
as the really good ones alter the perceptions of those participating as audience members.

Definitely it's really up to the individual to do a subjective discovery into what works for them and brings meaning to their lives whether that be lighting a candle and burning incense to casting circles or even praying in a church or dedicating one's life to science which I see as a sort of self discovery as well as helping us better understand nature in all her glory.

Oh it's easy to get confused with all these -theisms, theism, atheism, monotheism, polytheism, pantheism, it all gets rather confusing tbh! Many people think pantheism is just "sexed-up atheism" but I beg to differ like it does have common elements with atheism but we really just have a different definition of what god or gods are rather than denying them completely. It's a sort of odd and seemingly confusing belief but I like it.

Yeah I see each god and goddess as representing a unique element of nature. As I said what works for you and brings you meaning! Pagans are very diverse anyway like because paganism is really an umbrella term for a variety of different beliefs.

Yeah I suppose you're right it is an interesting take on stage magic actually. Never really looked at it in that way before I must admit. Thanks for the insight!

Talliesin

Thaedydal wrote: »

hmmm are prays spells, I guess that depends on how one defines what a 'spell' is.

Any takers on that one ?

I would define a spell as requiring some energetic input from oneself, whereas a prayer is more directly focused upon a deity or other being (whether in worship or petition).

There are grey areas, the way my mother would pray to St. Martin involved a degree of deal-cutting that moves it out of how her religion would normally define prayer (indeed, they wouldn't really have approved, but it worked so she didn't care). Spells may contain prayers along with energy from oneself.

I also tend to think of some acts of magic (such as cord-magic) as different to spells, but that's not so much a matter of definition as nuance; I wouldn't argue with someone who did call it a spell, it's just not the word that would come to mind on my part.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well often spells require many objects and time and only certain ones can be performed at certain times of the moon phases.

Yeah, but there's always the option to approach the same problem in a different way. Master your tools, don't let them master you.

Bougeoir wrote: »

And you have to do purification first and you have to open and close the circle.

All three are a very good idea, but none of them are necessary.

Bougeoir wrote: »

It's rather complicated actually.

Can be very simple indeed.

Bougeoir wrote: »

But I suppose many prayer rituals especially Eastern ones can be equally complicated.

Or consider that a novena takes nine days. High mass with a full choir and a bishop can be complicated. Complicated prayer rituals are not restricted to the East.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Take for example the Sufi Muslims who are a more pagan-like Muslim sect

I see nothing particularly Pagan about the Sufism, and most Sufis wouldn't either.

Idries Shah and others have held that Sufism wasn't restricted to Islam and the practices can be used by non-Muslims (indeed, I used to know a Pagan Sufi of this sort) and likewise there are Muslims that consider Sufism to be outside of Islam and condemn it as such. However, the most common position in Sufism would be that it is very much part of Islam.

Bougeoir wrote: »

who wear these white robes and hats and do these special dances and everything.

Not universal within Sufism.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well anyone can perform a spell but it's a matter of whether one actually believe in it or not.

I'm not so sure.

Why is using a spell so different to using a hammer? Not believing in the efficacy of hammers may make it harder to use them well, but once you've knocked a few nails in it'll become a non-issue.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Of course I distinguish spells from other forms of worship because prayers and all that are usually focused upon a higher power like a god whereas spells aren't necessarily so.

Would they have to be "higher". If I petition something that I think of as equal or lower to me, is that still a prayer? Lingually it would still be a "pray" (ask, request - a sense we still use idiomatically in "pray tell" etc.) but would it be what we are talking about here?

Bougeoir wrote: »

Although some do believe in separate entities of a god and goddess ect

The vast majority of Wiccans and Ásatrúers I've encountered do.

Bougeoir wrote: »

but it is agenerally a more earth, nature focused practice.

What does that mean?

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well different pagan witches have different beliefs some are seen as atheist because they are pantheist which is the belief that what one calls god is actually synonymous with nature.

Yes, but also that it is still divine. An atheist does not believe in that divine nature, a pantheist does.

Pantheist statements would include the Hermes Trismegistus' "God is an infinite sphere, the centre of which is everywhere and the circumference nowhere" or Spinoza's "By God, I mean a being absolutely infinite — that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality." To the Atheist the latter is rejected (they believe in no such being) and the former considered meaningless.

Pantheism has also been used to describe the sort of polytheism of Dion Fortune ("All gods are one God, all goddesses are one Goddess, and there is one Initiator" - Dion Fortune, The Sea Priestess), but with pantheism also meaning seeing everything as divine this sense is awkwardly confusing so it is often referred to as "soft polytheism" to distinguish from "hard polytheism" which sees different deities as distinct.

Just to really confuse things, these can - and often are - combined. One could believe that everything is divine and also that there are distinct deities, while forms of Buddhism that have absorbed animist influences believe in many gods but are ultimately atheist in the sense that they don't believe in any overall intelligence and the gods they believe in they feel will also come to pass.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Well one should distinguish magic from magick. The former refers to the art of deceiving as practised by magicians whereas the latter is moreso an Earth-focused practise of directly energy and desires.

Apart from what Thaedydal has already said about stage magic, I don't see what is specifically earth-focused about magic. Many forms of magic, yes, but magic as a whole, no. What's earth-focused about chaos magic, for example?

Thaedydal wrote: »

No, Alister Crowley added the k on to the work magic to differentiate what he was writing about and practicing from stage magic.

It's worth adding that at the time Crowley wrote, magic was nowhere near as well-known about as now (now everyone knows that there are people who work magic, even if they think we're all mad or what have you, this was not the case then) and stage-magic was much more popular (think about the fact that Houdini is still known of today, and that there was no such thing as television).

Thaedydal wrote: »

If you are preforming ceremonal magic then some people will add in the k.

If they are working ceremonial magic in a manner that relies heavily upon Crowleyana then it is a reasonable enough idea, since they are following so heavily one who did so, otherwise I tend to suspect it as a rather superficial affectation, and really just bad English in this century.

Bougeoir wrote: »

I believe that the gods and goddesses depicted are actually more like representations or symbols for aspects of Nature and the world.

I believe that even if you're right, it may not be a good idea to say that to their face

Bougeoir wrote: »

I don't deny the supernatural especially phenomena of nature

That statement is an oxymoron. The supernatural is that which is beyond what is natural, hence super- -natural.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I would be a hard polythiest personally.

Likewise here.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I would say falls between the two
as the really good ones alter the perceptions of those participating as audience members.

So would knocking them over the head with a baseball bat, but we generally wouldn't call that magic. I'm with Bougeoir on this one.

At the same time, I would agree that to alter perceptions in the manner of a stage illusionist does still touch on things that can be used magically.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Yeah I see each god and goddess as representing a unique element of nature. As I said what works for you and brings you meaning!

I would say that it's not what works for me and gives me meaning, but what allows me to serve my gods. That's my job as a priest of the Wicca. I find meaning in that sure, but if I saw finding meaning in it as the most important thing I would no longer find meaning in it.

Also, there's the simple fact that it's enjoyable (when asked why he was a witch, Gardner very sensibly replied "because it's fun").

brendansmith

Im definitely gonna have to check out the books listed.

Im sick and tired of casting spells and them not working. :mad: Anyone any tips?

Bougeoir

Hey Talliesin,

I won't quote because it would take up half the page! lol

Rather I'll give you an overall response. Yeah I do see where you're coming from and I always welcome different views as I helps one form new opinions and have a different perspective on things. I was just wondering though, taking on a pantheistic view in which I would see nature as divine whilst really rejecting super intelligent deity/deities per se as in like one(s) like who'd be omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, would people then not view me as an atheist in that respect? I don't consider myself an atheist though.

Are you actually Wiccan priest (with a capital W) as in initiated into the coven as opposed to an eclectic wiccan? just curious! x

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

as in like one(s) like who'd be omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient,

While I am a hard polythiest I don't think most Gods are omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient.

Bougeoir

brendansmith wrote: »

Im definitely gonna have to check out the books listed.

Im sick and tired of casting spells and them not working. :mad: Anyone any tips?

Well a lot of it has got to do with the state one is in. It is often said that one should be in a good mood whilst casting a spell to bring in positive energy whereas a bad mood would bring in negative energy into the circle. Although not necessarily necessary to some but to myself at least, I find certain types of spells work better at certain times of the moon phase like during the waxing constructive spells are recommended whilst in the waning destructive spells are recommended. Also at the full moon, spells will be at their peek. There are lots of various good websites out there but often many have dodgy spells that don't really work so be careful. There are many many factors and spell casting is a hard skill indeed. Sure I'm only a newbie at it! lol

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

While I am a hard polythiest I don't think most Gods are omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient.

Oh really? What would your view of them be? Sorry I'm just used to the concept of the Judeo-Christian god and I really should realise many pagans would have a different view of gods.

Talliesin

brendansmith wrote: »

Im sick and tired of casting spells and them not working. :mad: Anyone any tips?

Do you "let go" at the end of the spell. It's a very useful thing to put your mind elsewhere when you have finished. This is one of the implications of Tacere in Scire Potere Audere Tacere.

Bougeoir wrote: »

I was just wondering though, taking on a pantheistic view in which I would see nature as divine whilst really rejecting super intelligent deity/deities per se as in like one(s) like who'd be omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, would people then not view me as an atheist in that respect?

I think this would be a matter of limitations of language. The language we speak has been influenced since before it changed from Old English to Middle English by certain assumptions. The use of Latin and Greek that influence the longer words has been influenced by those assumptions for a long time too, though they did start amongst a polytheistic view.

So I would say you were atheist in one sense and pantheist in another.

Similarly while the many gods of hard polytheist are generally not omniscient, omnipotent or omnibenevolent, many hard polytheists also believe in a divine beyond them and others don't. So I myself am a agnostic in one sense, and polytheist in another.

It's not really satisfying, but alas English doesn't distinguish between the divine and certain understandings of the divine at the level of vocabulary.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Are you actually Wiccan priest (with a capital W) as in initiated into the coven as opposed to an eclectic wiccan?

The former, though still quite inexperienced as such. I was an eclectic witch for much longer, but it wasn't what really called to me.

Bougeoir

Talliesin wrote: »

Do you "let go" at the end of the spell. It's a very useful thing to put your mind elsewhere when you have finished. This is one of the implications of Tacere in Scire Potere Audere Tacere.

I find it often hard to let go, any tips? Is it like when you close the circle and you are advised to celebrate to put yourself back into the regularity of things?

this would be a matter of limitations of language. The language we speak has been influenced since before it changed from Old English to Middle English by certain assumptions. The use of Latin and Greek that influence the longer words has been influenced by those assumptions for a long time too, though they did start amongst a polytheistic view.

So I would say you were atheist in one sense and pantheist in another.

Similarly while the many gods of hard polytheist are generally not omniscient, omnipotent or omnibenevolent, many hard polytheists also believe in a divine beyond them and others don't. So I myself am a agnostic in one sense, and polytheist in another.

It's not really satisfying, but alas English doesn't distinguish between the divine and certain understandings of the divine at the level of vocabulary.

Yeah I currently study languages myself in univeristy (French, Spanish and Portuguese) and often it's hard to express certain things in one language as opposed to other and often words and phrases have different implications. When you look up a word in a bilingual dictionary, in fact often the word or phrase doesn't mean exactly the same in the other language. Communication barriers between people who speak the same language is not a rare occurance. Language is often limiting and many things can never be expressed fully by it.

The former, though still quite inexperienced as such. I was an eclectic witch for much longer, but it wasn't what really called to me.

Oh cool that's very interesting. Are there many covens in Ireland?

Nevyn

I don't think there is any way of knowing how any covens there are or how many different types. There are some listings on witchvox but thats about it.

Talliesin

Bougeoir wrote: »

I find it often hard to let go, any tips? Is it like when you close the circle and you are advised to celebrate to put yourself back into the regularity of things?

Well, it depends. Do you close your circle immediately after the spell, then yes.Do something fun! As silly as you can is good.

This is one thing you get almost immediately with a group, because all you have to do is start chatting over your food. While not the only reason for it, this is an advantage to cakes and wine.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Yeah I currently study languages myself in univeristy

Now, there's something I often wish I was more skilled in.

sukikettle

Four people were delivered in Barnes&Noble of witchcraft and they immediately began prophesying in the name of Jesus Christ and quoting bible versus they had never read.

Talliesin

sukikettle wrote: »

Four people were delivered in Barnes&Noble

As in a woman gave birth to quads in a bookshop?

Did she get free books, like the way Harrods give you a free hamper if your waters break there?

sukikettle

No a man walked in and discerned the evil present and cast out the demons residing in these four women, they were subsequently healed in the name of Jesus Christ