Great-Uncle died in WW1 - Harry Potter ;-)

Dr Pepper

Hi Folks,

Need some help trying to find my Great-uncle who died in WW1. My Granny wasn't born until 1927 and she only knows his name, that he was (probably the oldest sibling) and that he died in WW1.

Name: Harry Potter (yes really!) (possibly born 1883)
Parents: Robert Potter, Ellen Scanlon (married 1883)
Parents Address in 1894: 9 Leo St, Dublin 1
Parents Address in 1911: 4 Clonmore Rd, Dublin (North city)

I have their return for 1911 census but Harry is not on it and I can't find him elsewhere on it (was probably 28 at the time - could have moved to England). I went in looking for their 1901 return today in the National Archives but the roll was out for duplication until Monday!

I was in the GRO yesterday looking for his birth cert (unsuccessfully) but I might call in again tomorrow - A nice lady in the National Archives told me to try 'Henry' (Harry was just like a nickname for Henry at the time) and I recall seeing a Henry Joseph, born 1883 (which is about right) so will pick up that cert tomorrow.

Anyway, here's the question: What does this picture tell you about his rank, regiment and force served. I think the badge on his cap might tell you his regiment?? That might help me to narrow down the search on CWGC.

The girls are his 2 sisters, Mary-Jane ('May'), b1894 on the left who is my great-grandmother and Alice ('Sis'), b1885 on the right.




Thanks, will let ye know how I get on.
Brian

Alun

Rather oddly, that cap badge looks Canadian to me (looks like a Maple Leaf as background).

See here for some examples http://www.arcticmedals.com/page/page/3730539.htm

I can't imagine how he'd have got into the Canadian military unless he'd emigrated there, so maybe he went there and not England as you'd first imagined?

994

I found cpl. Harry Potter who was in the Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment) and died 6-7-1916. But it said he was born November 27, 1886, so maybe it's not him. http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=96815

Dr Pepper

Hi,

Thanks very much for the input guys. That badge certainly does look Canadian alright - Don't know how I didn't spot that :rolleyes: Now I'm more confused than ever though.

I've just been back at the GRO today and found his birth cert under Henry Joseph Potter (thanks to that tip from the lady in the national archives about Harry=Henry). Thanks for that link 994 but now that I have the cert, I can see that that's not him.

He was born on 1st Aug 1883 at his parents home, 10 Derrynane Parade, Phibsborough, Dublin 7. Using that DOB, I've re-checked www.cwgc.org and come up with this man (service number 5452) - Looks promising because he was in the Leinster Regiment and his age at time of death is correct (33). Doesn't seem to fit with the Canadian badge though?? On the notes on that page, it says he was married to a Mary Potter of Kent. I looked up the UK 1911 census and found a Harry (of the right age) and Mary living together (only problem is they were both born in the Leeds and I have my Harry's birth cert which says he was born in Dublin - so possibly a dead end)
Anybody know where I can find a DOB for this service number? I got the medal card for Harry Potter, 5452 (attached) but I can't make out a DOB anywhere on it.

Any more tips or resource suggestions would be appreciated, thanks again.

Brian

PS - I think the GRO keep death certs for Irish WW1 casualties in Roscommon so I might apply to them now that I have his DOB

Dr Pepper

By the way, I also tried the Canadian 1911 census but it seems without the address, it's impossible to find a person. The don't have any index or search facility by name!!

On that note, after spending some time on the UK, Canadian and Irish 1911 sites, ours seems surprisingly superior in terms of searchability and usefulness

chasm

Hi Dr Pepper- decided to take a break from my own family Tree and ended up doing a bit of digging for you(A Change is as good as a rest!) I think ive found a bit of info for you:

He was a member of the 162nd Overseas Batt Canadian expeditionary Force

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=580871&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=u7celn15b3q3c9uqj18sdnqqm4

Name:
POTTER, HENRY JOSEPH
Rank:
CSM
Regimental number(s):
657332
Reference:
RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 7923 - 31
Date of Birth:
01/08/1883
If you go on the above link and click on "front of form" you will see a copy of his attestation paper for the "Canadian over-seas expeditionary force". I cannot make out his "present" address but all other info seems to match with what you have given. Seems he served 7(?) years in Australia-Though i could be reading that wrong.
"back of form" gives his description on enlistment ie age/height/distinctive marks etc.
Hope that helps-still no luck on cwgc though im afraid, but good luck.

*"present" address is Parrysound"

Snickers Man

His cap badge doesn't look like that of the Leinster Regiment. In fact it doesn't look like any of the Irish named Regiments that served in the Great War. You can see the Leinster Regiment's cap badge here.

As its fulll title was The Prince of Wales' Leinster Regiment, the crest is based on that of the Prince of Wales.

I have a book entitled "The Irish Regiments in the First World War" which has on its back cover the crests of 15 regiments, namely the Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, Royal Irish Lancers, Inniskilling Dragoons, Royal Irish Hussars, North Irish Horse, South Irish Horse, Irish Guards, Royal Irish Regiment, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, Royal Irish Rifles, Royal Irish Fusiliers, Connaught Rangers, Leinster Regiment, Royal Munster Fusiliers and Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

None of them look like the cap badge in the photograph.

jhegarty

chasm wrote: »

Hi Dr Pepper- decided to take a break from my own family Tree and ended up doing a bit of digging for you(A Change is as good as a rest!) I think ive found a bit of info for you:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=580871&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=u7celn15b3q3c9uqj18sdnqqm4

Name:
POTTER, HENRY JOSEPH
Rank:
CSM
Regimental number(s):
657332
Reference:
RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 7923 - 31
Date of Birth:
01/08/1883
If you go on the above link and click on "front of form" you will see a copy of his attestation paper for the "Canadian over-seas expeditionary force". I cannot make out his "present" address but all other info seems to match with what you have given. Seems he served 7(?) years in Australia-Though i could be reading that wrong.
"back of form" gives his description on enlistment ie age/height/distinctive marks etc.
Hope that helps-still no luck on cwgc though im afraid, but good luck.

Using the stamp on that form you can see he served in the 162nd Battalion, CEF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/162nd_Battalion%2C_CEF


Here is the badge

This would have had him from Parry Sound, Ontario

Dr Pepper

chasm wrote: »

Hi Dr Pepper- decided to take a break from my own family Tree and ended up doing a bit of digging for you(A Change is as good as a rest!) I think ive found a bit of info for you:

He was a member of the 162nd Overseas Batt Canadian expeditionary Force

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=580871&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=u7celn15b3q3c9uqj18sdnqqm4

Name:
POTTER, HENRY JOSEPH
Rank:
CSM
Regimental number(s):
657332
Reference:
RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 7923 - 31
Date of Birth:
01/08/1883
If you go on the above link and click on "front of form" you will see a copy of his attestation paper for the "Canadian over-seas expeditionary force". I cannot make out his "present" address but all other info seems to match with what you have given. Seems he served 7(?) years in Australia-Though i could be reading that wrong.
"back of form" gives his description on enlistment ie age/height/distinctive marks etc.
Hope that helps-still no luck on cwgc though im afraid, but good luck.

*"present" address is Parrysound"

WOW!! I am delighted with that. That's definitely him alright! Thank you very much. And thanks to the other guys for the information on the cap badges & 162nd battalion.

2 days ago, I had no idea he was in Canada, never mind Australia. He really seems to have gotten around. I'll take another look at the Canadian census and see if there's any sign of him in Parry Sound. Also, I'll see if I can find out about his service in Australia and try to piece together his travels during his adult life.

I'll apply for his full service file on that website and hopefully, I'll soon know what became of him and where he's buried (if anywhere). Would I be right in assuming that since he's not listed on CWGC, he may be one of the many 'unknown soldiers'?

Thanks Again, my Granny will be very impressed
Brian

PS - I can't believe you were looking this up for me at that late hour last night while I (funnily enough) was struggling to stay awake and finish 'Birdsong' which I must admit has been a great inspiration

spurious

CWGC is not a complete list - it is being added to all the time.

Dr Pepper

spurious wrote: »

CWGC is not a complete list - it is being added to all the time.

Thanks, that's a relief. Maybe the Canadians or the GRO will be able to tell me where he is.

Centauro

chasm wrote: »

Name:
POTTER, HENRY JOSEPH
Rank:
CSM
Regimental number(s):
657332
Reference:
RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 7923 - 31
Date of Birth:
01/08/1883

If you look at the area above the cuff on his uniform tunic you will see a small crown. This denotes that he was a warrant Officer. The rank listed above is CSM or Company Sgt Major, who would indeed have been a Warrant Officer, so it all fits. The CSM would have been responsible for enforcing discipline, a hard task I'm sure amongst the notoriously laid back Canadians!

Snickers Man

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Would I be right in assuming that since he's not listed on CWGC, he may be one of the many 'unknown soldiers'?

Not at all. If you look at the records from CWGC closely, you will see that the vast majority of soldiers killed in the First World War have no known grave. Most of the WWI graves in militiary cemeteries are of unknown soldiers. Such men are commemorated in memorials such as the Helles Memorial in Gallipoli or the Menin Gate in Ypres. Frequently, there are memorials in individual cemeteries of men believed to be buried there but whose graves are unidentified. Forensic identification methods were not as sophisticated back then as they later became.

What might have happened is that he was badly wounded and died shortly after the war. Such people tend not to be listed on the CWGC site.

For example, three great uncles of mine, all brothers, served in the First World War and died as a result. One of them has no known grave, another is buried in a military cemetery and the third was gassed, discharged and died shortly after the war, still in his twenties. We regard him, with some justification, as a war casualty but he, unlike his brothers, is not listed on the CWGC website.

Died too late. This might have happened to Harry.

Fratton Fred

Have you made contact with the cwgc? You are likely to find someone there who would relish the chance to help solve your mystery.

Dr Pepper

Thanks very much for the help everyone. It seems the H & H board can't resist a good mystery/investigation

I have emailed CWGC with an enquiry and applied for a full service record from the 'Library and Archives, Canada' so hopefully I should have an answer to his grave/memorial location in the coming weeks/months.

I will keep you posted with more updates and clues as I get them..

Cheers,
Brian

chasm

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Thanks very much for the help everyone. It seems the H & H board can't resist a good mystery/investigation

I have emailed CWGC with an enquiry and applied for a full service record from the 'Library and Archives, Canada' so hopefully I should have an answer to his grave/memorial location in the coming weeks/months.

I will keep you posted with more updates and clues as I get them..

Cheers,
Brian

Hi Dr Pepper
I had meant to post this before but when i went to my bookmarks to retrieve them, firefox had decided to delete them!!

I located you great uncle on the 1911 canadian census which gives a lot of details on it including the year of immigration (1908), his occupation total hours of work/wages for 1910 plus loads more.
Here's 2 links which both supply the same info, He is number 19 on the list :

http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1911/pdf/e002028190.pdf

http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=82965

A Brief History of the Canadian Expeditionary Force:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ww1can/cef14_15.htm

I must say i have enjoyed the detective work and have come across some very interesting sites and despite being female have actually enjoyed reading up a bit more about ww1.

Happy Hunting;)

Dr Pepper

Hi Chasm,

Thanks a million for that!

I spent half the day yesterday going half-blind looking through all of the Parry Sound districts on the 1911 Canadian census, this site (without success). I didn't realise that the name information was digitised on Automated Genealogy (although the name should have given me a clue :rolleyes:). Just as well you saw this thread because (needless to say at this stage), I'm not much of a researcher!!

There are a couple of things on that census that don't seem to add up though:
Country or Place of Birth = English (The fact that this appears to say 'English' and not 'England' makes me think it's a bit sloppy and could be a mistake anyway)
Racial or Tribal Origin = English (Bit of an odd heading - Maybe his father/grandfather was originally English - 'Potter' seems much more common in England than here.)
Nationality = Canadian (Seems to say Canadian beside everyone so am not worried about that)
Religion = Anglican (His parents marriage cert is Roman Catholic. Maybe one of the parents -father?- was Anglican and that's how the children were baptised/brought up? Or maybe he converted at some stage on his travels to Australia/Canada?) - I'll have to do a bit more digging on this!

I think it's quite likely to be him but I'm still not sure why it would say 'English' in the first 2 points above. Maybe he had some reason to pretend to be English (to make it easier to get work/lodgings)? Or maybe he was out when the census details were taken and his friends/landlord just guessed some details?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Thanks again!
Brian

994

Dr Pepper wrote: »

Hi Chasm,

Thanks a million for that!

I spent half the day yesterday going half-blind looking through all of the Parry Sound districts on the 1911 Canadian census, this site (without success). I didn't realise that the name information was digitised on Automated Genealogy (although the name should have given me a clue :rolleyes:). Just as well you saw this thread because (needless to say at this stage), I'm not much of a researcher!!

There are a couple of things on that census that don't seem to add up though:
Country or Place of Birth = English (The fact that this appears to say 'English' and not 'England' makes me think it's a bit sloppy and could be a mistake anyway)
Racial or Tribal Origin = English (Bit of an odd heading - Maybe his father/grandfather was originally English - 'Potter' seems much more common in England than here.)
Nationality = Canadian (Seems to say Canadian beside everyone so am not worried about that)
Religion = Anglican (His parents marriage cert is Roman Catholic. Maybe one of the parents -father?- was Anglican and that's how the children were baptised/brought up? Or maybe he converted at some stage on his travels to Australia/Canada?) - I'll have to do a bit more digging on this!

I think it's quite likely to be him but I'm still not sure why it would say 'English' in the first 2 points above. Maybe he had some reason to pretend to be English (to make it easier to get work/lodgings)? Or maybe he was out when the census details were taken and his friends/landlord just guessed some details?

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Thanks again!
Brian

Ireland was part off the uk and "England" was often seen as a synonym of UK. They only changed it to "Britain" in the 50s

chasm

Also as regards the "nationality" part:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~canon/research-topic-citizenship.html

Citizenship = To be a citizen of a country; Citizenship is sought by those living in a country they were not born in

Naturalization = When a person is granted full citizenship of a country they were not born in

From 1763 to 1 Jan 1947 any person born in British Crown lands or colonies were considered British subjects. These subjects were not required to be naturalized (this included those born in Upper Canada / Canada West / Ontario). After 1 Jan 1947, any person not born in Canada who wished to live in Canada was required to apply for citizenship.

British Subjects were those born in England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, parts of Canada (like Ontario), Australia, India and the British West Indies. If your ancestor was born in any of these areas prior to the 20th century (1900), you will NOT find a citizenship or naturalization record if they immigrated to another British colony.

When a non-British subject immigrated to Canada (before 1947) they could apply for Citizenship/Naturalization after living here for at least three years.

Also the above site states (R.E census) :
You don't know who the enumerator spoke with then they knocked upon your ancestor's door. It may have been the husband, it may have been the wife, a child, a hired hand, servant, or a even neighbour. Would a neighbour be able to supply all the correct information about your ancestor?

Dr Pepper

chasm wrote: »

Would a neighbour be able to supply all the correct information about your ancestor?

No.. Good point. Looks like that's a boarding house with 20 odd lads in it. Probably lucky enough that the landlord/neighbour even knew the names, never mind all of the other details.

I'd say that this was more than likely him then - I'd love if they had a next-of-kin or day of month on the DOB just to be 100% sure.

So he spent 7 years in Australia and then went to Canada in 1908 (or 9? - can't make it out for definite). He must have been in Australia by 1901/2 at the age of 18 or 19. I'll have to go back into the National Archives and get their 1901 census return to see if he was in the family home in Dublin then. After that, I may be able to narrow down the time of travel to Australia to within a year or two and maybe find his name on a ship's passenger list or something.. Haven't found any record of him in the Australian military yet but I've plenty more digging to do there...

Thanks again!