'IRISH PROPERTY TAX' FOR YEAR 2009. HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER FOR THAT?

professore

20goto10 wrote: »

But its unfair to slap it on everyone. If its introduced it should be from now on and not applied to existing home owners.

In that case the income from it would be close to zero for the next few years. Unworkable.

20goto10 wrote: »

I accept we need more taxes to plug the hole. Property tax is good for going forward, but not as a quick fix. But FF are just trying to do what FF do best, that is raise taxes without pissing people off. It won't work. They're as transparent as a pane of glass. They should just accept their fate - increase income tax, call a general election and sit their fat asses on the opposition bench for the next 20 years.

I think a sq.ft. based property tax is a good idea TBH. If you are renting you are at a severe disadvantage in this country, as you have already contributed billions to the developers and FTB's out there, so this would even up the stakes a little. BTW I own my own house.

Duck Soup

professore wrote: »

Well if they can't afford it then they should sell it and buy something smaller. Square footage is the way to go.

Fags and booze. A euro or two euro on each. Seriously. Will raise billions, improve the nation's wellbeing and lessen health costs. Would probably have a beneficial social effect as well.

Beruthiel

Three years ago I paid over €10,000 stamp duty on my home. IMO, I've paid my tax and I'm not paying anymore on it.

The_Conductor

Duck Soup wrote: »

Fags and booze. A euro or two euro on each. Seriously. Will raise billions, improve the nation's wellbeing and lessen health costs. Would probably have a beneficial social effect as well.

Nope- all it would do is rekindle a massive smuggling ethos in the country- criminalising most of the populace, because they can't afford the few pleasures they have left in life.

20goto10

gnxx wrote: »

The only fair way to apply this tax is based on valuation .. I believe it would be an interesting exercise to value properties for tax purposes in this climate.

Exactly. And that cannot be done on homes that have already been bought. Its just not realistic. For example all you need to do is put it up on myhome for €5. There ya go, my homes only worth €5, so here's your 5 cent tax a year

professore

gnxx wrote: »

The government and banks played a hand in driving up property prices. Within the next 24 months, most people who recently bought property will be in a negative equity position.

We don't tax US corporations on their losses :-) Why tax homeowners who are stuck with a negative asset.

The only fair way to apply this tax is based on valuation .. I believe it would be an interesting exercise to value properties for tax purposes in this climate.

this won't work - who does the valuation? It will cost as much to implement as it brings in. Houses are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and by that metric some houses in Ireland worth very little.

DublinWriter

The Public Service Unions don't appear to be capitulating on wage cuts.

This 1K levy appears to be a 'Plan B' for the Government to raise €1.7bn quickly.

Just like the 1% income levy, it's a very unfair system of taxation as €1K would mean more to a couple struggling to pay the mortgage and bring up a young family than it would to a singleton working in a more highly paid professional career and living in his/her own apartment.

It's a band-aid over a gaping wound. The Government needs to tackle the runaway expenditure of the Public Sector. That's the root cause of the current problem.

professore

20goto10 wrote: »

Exactly. And that cannot be done on homes that have already been bought. Its just not realistic. For example all you need to do is put it up on myhome for €5. There ya go, my homes only worth €5, so here's your 5 cent tax a year

I'll buy it off you

gnxx

My point exactly. Why should somebody pay tax on an item that is worth less than they paid.

professore wrote: »

this won't work - who does the valuation? It will cost as much to implement as it brings in. Houses are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and by that metric some houses in Ireland worth very little.

20goto10

professore wrote: »

In that case the income from it would be close to zero for the next few years. Unworkable.

Exactly, its not the right tax for the solution needed. Its a good idea for the future though.

grahamo

I don't agree with a property tax on a main residence. People have had to take out huge mortgages to buy their home and pay stamp duty too. I am HUGELY in favour of bringing in a tax on second and subsequent properties. Wealth should be taxed. A large number of these properties are being let to social welfare tenants so effectively the owners are having their mortgages paid by the taxpayer.

professore

DublinWriter wrote: »

It's a band-aid over a gaping wound. The Government needs to tackle the runaway expenditure of the Public Sector. That's the root cause of the current problem.

I agree with the rest you said, but don't agree fully with this. The public sector does need to cut back on wasteful spending, but not on front line services - these are stretched to the limit in health and education to name two.

Also unemployment payments will inflate the public pay bill no matter what cutbacks are made (unless we cut dole entirely).

asdasd

Not too long ago Fintan O'Toole produced an article when he acted appalled that 1% of the population had most of the wealth : 80 billion I think. This included property wealth. He then went on to argue, as usual, that we should raise taxes on labour. Thats the typical nonsense.

The top 1% is 40,000 people. So the per capita wealth per rich person is 2 million including property. My guess is that the top one or two thousand own about 40 billion of that wealth ( not all of it in property) and the rest have assets of about 1 million in property - adding up to the total 80 billion.


So is none of this taxable? Or are we going just going to tax income as usual?

So lets not tax people with one house in the bottom percentile. If you want to tax the rich you need to tax wealth. And in my view unless you tax wealth the nonsense about "redistribution" is just cant - we are taxing workers to pay for the poor and letting the rich off the hook.

Duck Soup

smccarrick wrote: »

Nope- all it would do is rekindle a massive smuggling ethos in the country- criminalising most of the populace, because they can't afford the few pleasures they have left in life.

Beer and spirits in pubs are usually bought direct from the major brewers and distillers. You can't really 'smuggle' kegs of Guinness into a licensed premises. The extra tax on fags will not add on any extra smuggling into newsagents etc, since the newsagents are not paying extra for the product, they are simply collecting extra revenue for the government. I speak as a chronic smoker.

I'd rather tax pleasures (a.k.a. luxuries) than necessities, i.e. a roof over your head.

The other side of the equation should also be considered. Ireland has the largest government payroll in Europe related to the size of its population. Slash the civil service to the bone. Too many pen pushers, doing sod all, snoozing their way through the recession.

The_Conductor

Beruthiel wrote: »

Three years ago I paid over €10,000 stamp duty on my home. IMO, I've paid my tax and I'm not paying anymore on it.

I paid 35k in 2000- and I have to pay on average 2k in management fees every year, for the pleasure of living in a complex that looks like some of the under-developed areas of Beirut on a bad day. At the moment it also homes a Ford Transit sitting on blocks without any number plates, a burnt out Nissan Micra, a skip with rotting domestic waste, a destroyed communal garden (they went with the cheapest quote and ended up with a lunatic who thought it was fine to prune everything with a high power chainsaw), satellite dishes all over the place and 2 commercial properties in there that make security a nightmare (despite one of the two being a bank).

What we need to accept is the public finances are shot. We need to cutback on expenditure- the public sector wagebill is only one element of this- all areas are going to get chopped. We also need to broaden our tax base. If we don't bring in a property tax- we have to bring in the taxes elsewhere.

Would people rather lowering the threshold to bring more lower earners into the tax bands, increase the lower rate to 25% and the higher to 48-50%, lower the consumption based taxes such as VAT to mirror those in the UK and make it less attractive to piss off up to Newry- and accept that all the indirect taxation is a mistake and an upfront approach to what we are actually paying is in everyone's interests?

S.

grahamo

20goto10 wrote: »

Exactly. And that cannot be done on homes that have already been bought. Its just not realistic. For example all you need to do is put it up on myhome for €5. There ya go, my homes only worth €5, so here's your 5 cent tax a year

What happens when someone makes an offer?

professore

grahamo wrote: »

I don't agree with a property tax on a main residence. People have had to take out huge mortgages to buy their home and pay stamp duty too. I am HUGELY in favour of bringing in a tax on second and subsequent properties. Wealth should be taxed. A large number of these properties are being let to social welfare tenants so effectively the owners are having their mortgages paid by the taxpayer.

People renting would consider those with property wealthy. People with 10 bed mansions are not wealthy ?

professore

grahamo wrote: »

What happens when someone makes an offer?

I already did. 5-bed Ballsbridge pad for a fiver. Not a bad morning's work (God knows I've done f**kall else this morning)

professore

smccarrick wrote: »

I paid 35k in 2000- and I have to pay on average 2k in management fees every year, for the pleasure of living in a complex that looks like some of the under-developed areas of Beirut on a bad day. At the moment it also homes a Ford Transit sitting on blocks without any number plates, a burnt out Nissan Micra, a skip with rotting domestic waste, a destroyed communal garden (they went with the cheapest quote and ended up with a lunatic who thought it was fine to prune everything with a high power chainsaw), satellite dishes all over the place and 2 commercial properties in there that make security a nightmare (despite one of the two being a bank).

What we need to accept is the public finances are shot. We need to cutback on expenditure- the public sector wagebill is only one element of this- all areas are going to get chopped. We also need to broaden our tax base. If we don't bring in a property tax- we have to bring in the taxes elsewhere.

Would people rather lowering the threshold to bring more lower earners into the tax bands, increase the lower rate to 25% and the higher to 48-50%, lower the consumption based taxes such as VAT to mirror those in the UK and make it less attractive to piss off up to Newry- and accept that all the indirect taxation is a mistake and an upfront approach to what we are actually paying is in everyone's interests?

S.

Ouch !!! I think a property tax on houses over a reasonable size and on second homes is fair. People like you should be exempt.

Het-Field

Unless its across the board...little or no money will be generated. Taxing a few houses on Piloet View, Vico Road etc will generate a fbit of money, but the administrative costs will render it useless

Im against a Poll Tax completely. People have a right to exist and a house is paramount to this. Furthermore a private residence has already had to deal with a mortgage/stamp duty etc, is not the place to go for more taxes.

Irish Citizens are already paying extra on the salary they earn, and on the goods they buy...the government would be crippling the economy to put its hand in the Irish Pockets in this manner.

It would be morally bankrupt to add a property tax onto increased income, and goods taxes, and it would guarantee a further economic slump.

20goto10

grahamo wrote: »

What happens when someone makes an offer?

I refuse. Don't like the cut of them

JUSTaCURIOCITY

funky.monkey wrote: »

A property tax is totally unfair, as it doesn't take any account of peoples ability to pay it. You can have a unemployed family living on the same street as a two income couple, and they both pay the same property tax. how is that fair.
(I'm on 12 euros a hour so its something I'm defo worried about). Its going to force people to sell their houses in the worst possible market, to move to places where they can afford the tax.'funk
I supported FF at the last election, but if they bring this in I will never vote for them again.

'funky.monkey.' I got your point.
That is so true and terrible same time. Question. How would you imagine selling house where 1. the value of property is way lower than most of us bought it ,2. Solicitors and all process costs.... a lot, 3. Banks demands all interest back even if you are selling your property. You can count you will be on minus and you will still borrow money to pay instantly al parties involved in selling your home at time

gnxx

One thing that worries me with the government -- we appear to be working without a plan ...

If this was a business, before talking about cuts etc, you would decide what was strategic etc before getting into the nitty gritty detail.

It appears that the only solution considered is cutbacks. How about solutions that increase employment and therefore increase the tax take naturally?

We have broken infrastructure, overcrowded schools, a complete lack of funding for frontline staff in health and gardai. This list is endless. Without a doubt -- there is plenty of work to be done in this country.

We need full plan to fix Ireland. Not just the page titled "cutbacks and more taxes".

grahamo

professore wrote: »

People renting would consider those with property wealthy. People with 10 bed mansions are not wealthy ?

Of course you are right. I was thinking along the lines of your average 3 bed semi

funky.monkey

If its done like the UK Poll Tax - then different areas will have different ammounts. People are going to be going along in their job living in one place, and then they lose their job and can't aford the property tax, so you are going to have families being up-rooted and forced to move at the worst possible time for them.

The_Conductor

Duck Soup wrote: »

Beer and spirits in pubs are usually bought direct from the major brewers and distillers. You can't really 'smuggle' kegs of Guinness into a licensed premises. The extra tax on fags will not add on any extra smuggling into newsagents etc, since the newsagents are not paying extra for the product, they are simply collecting extra revenue for the government. I speak as a chronic smoker.

I'd rather tax pleasures (a.k.a. luxuries) than necessities, i.e. a roof over your head.

The other side of the equation should also be considered. Ireland has the largest government payroll in Europe related to the size of its population. Slash the civil service to the bone. Too many pen pushers, doing sod all, snoozing their way through the recession.

First of all- I wasn't talking about commercial premises smuggling tobacco and alcohol (though 14 premises in Dublin and Limerick were raided in the last week for selling illegally imported cigarettes). I had people popping up to Newry with a transit and filling it with booze in mind- or bringing 20,000 cigarettes over from Poland etc. These are everyday occurrences.

When you say you'd rather tax pleasures (aka luxuries), the problem is that its difficult to define which goods are luxuries and which are necessities or ordinary every day goods. Womens sanitary products, condoms and mens shaving products are all currently classified as luxury goods, and enjoy punitive tax and duty treatment. This is bizarre and unreasonable.

Further regarding the size of the Irish public sector- our public sector is the average size per head of population in the EU- not the largest. Further- the civil service is less than 10% of the public sector and accounts for 6% of the public sector paybill (civil servants tend to be worse paid that employees in the quangoes, state bodies, HSE etc). The Irish civil service is the smallest per head of population in the entire OECD. Check it out- you will actually be very surprised- don't automatically run with the hysterical headlines the media like to propogate- they don't actually add up at all........

vengeancepuppy

You cannot rely on property tax as a %-age of value of property because that's plummeting so how is this tax going to be calculated? What's the point in this tax if it doesn't provide the funding Ireland needs?

What about the people that cannot afford to pay the tax? Are we going to set up some sort of system to decide who pays and who doesnt? How much is THAT going to cost? And it will fail anyway, as all systems of that sort have failed in this country.

jank

Bad idea by a bad government

Godge

I read somewhere that there are 1.7 million residential units in Ireland. An average tax of €1,000 on each would yield 1.7 billion. The tax could be higher on more valuable residences. If you extended it to farms and other land, you could raise another large amount.

Too much money in it for it to be turned down at this time.

SkepticOne

I think it is being mooted by the government in order to provoke a reaction against David Begg.