Sad day for Waterford?

Newaglish

I still dont really get what the workers think they're going to achieve with this. They work in a business which produces a product which is not viable. The company has been in a dire financial situation for years, a primary school student could have predicted this. The country went through one of its largest ever booms over the past decade and they still couldn't make a profit.

I'm sure the receiver has tried all avenues before closing the factory but you can't justify to the creditors keeping a factory open that's losing money. Everyone is worried about the people who are going to be made redundant, but you have to think about all the small businesses who will lose out massive sums of money as unsecured creditors, who may see 20 cent in the euro in about 5 years time. Every day that is spent keeping the factory open reduces the dividend that will eventually be paid to the unsecured creditors.

I do appreciate the difficult situation these employees are in, particularly in light of their lost pension contributions. I don't however agree with what they're doing, it's not going to achieve anything and it doesn't help anyone.

Any person who buys the company (ie. the brand) is probably going to shut the place down anyway, or dramatically reduce it with about 10% of the head count kept.

Some redundancy numbers for you:
A worker with 1 year's service will receive approx. €600
A worker with 5 years' service will receive approx. €9,000
A worker with 20 years' service will receive approx. €29,400
A worker with 30 years' service will receive approx. €41,400
A worker with 40 years' service will receive approx. €53,400

These aren't really part of any point I'm making but I thought would be interesting. I'm assuming workers are terminated on the day their employment ceases and that incomes arew €600+ per week gross.

nkay1985

Right so. The last page has basically been a lot of people saying "Sure they're gone. It's over now. What do they think they're doing at all?".

Evidently, none of you are in anyway invested in this. But a huge portion of the city are.

What they're trying to achieve by staging the sit-in is to get a reversal of the decision to close the plant. The receiver said he wouldn't close the plant while there was an interested party - there are currently two! He shouldn't have made that commitment if he couldn't follow through on it. But let's just say he's got no money available to keep it running and try to sell it as a going concern. The workers want the government to provide money to keep it running for at least another week, during which time the Clarion group bid can be made and discussed.

They've pumped millions into the banks and the pork industry so why not into the Glass which would effectively be manufacturing, tourism and local businesses all being bailed out!

Raskolnikov wrote: »

The thing is, that without the baggage of the debt, the pensions/redundancy hole, high costs (average employee cost here is €60k); Waterford Crystal would be a handy little business.

Whoever takes over will outsource all manufacturing to Slovakia, but keep the visitors centre, group HQ and a small glass-blowing operation for demonstration purposes. People looking for pensions or redundancy payments will probably be stiffed.

I'm sorry but you in particular are talking out your hole! I don't mean to attack the poster, so I'll attack the post.

The Clarion bid which would involve John Foley taking over the Waterford Crystal part of the company would not present this situation. His plan is to retain some production in Kilbarry (like his plan was while he was still CEO, before they ran out of money) for the next ten years. They promise that there would be cash flow within a few weeks which would get the operation back up and running and then they'd have to try to re-negotiate the redundancies and deal with the pension etc after that.

There is European Law that prevents a company being bought without inheriting its employees. But what the receiver has done may be a way around this. The receiver will have made the employees redundant and whoever takes over would be taking over a company with no employees. They're still not sure if this would circumvent the law and you can be sure there would be a European court case if it does go ahead that way.

Newaglish wrote: »

Every day that is spent keeping the factory open reduces the dividend that will eventually be paid to the unsecured creditors.

I do appreciate the difficult situation these employees are in, particularly in light of their lost pension contributions. I don't however agree with what they're doing, it's not going to achieve anything and it doesn't help anyone.

I'm sorry but I couldn't give a sh*t about the unsecured creditors. At least they'll get something somewhere down the line. There's a very real possibility that these workers won't get a penny.
You don't know that it's not going to achieve anything and if it only achieves a tiny amount, it'll help a great deal of people so you're completely wrong.

Let's say they manage to secure redundancy of 1 week per year's service because of all this. For someone there 30 years that's over half a year's pay more than what they're getting at the moment. If they're only on €700 per week, that's €21,000!!! Do you have any comprehension of the sums of money involved here? Think if this lasted two weeks and they got that much. Over €10,000 for one week of sleeping in a canteen. I know I'd do that.

They've got absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.



The basics of it is that if the closure is reversed and the plant remains for sale as a going concern, the workers have a definite position, and a very real interest from a buyer. IF not they're into a complicated legal battle.

From what I've heard Foley et al were going to be making a bid early next week so there's not much longer to wait to find out what's on the table.

I called in on my way back from Cork tonight and there were over a hundred inside. So this protest isn't ending anytime soon.

rambler924

Thanks nkay1985 for taking on that previous post, I have just come off the night shift out there and am too tired and emotional to do justice to a reply.
I would like to leave with one point to ponder: The reciever has committed to paying me my notice, surely this money would of been better spent having me working under protective notice turning the half finished stock into a saleable product, therefore creating the time necessary for a deal to be struckl

Bards

Why not Part nationalise Waterford Crystal into a semi-state?

How much money does the Govt give Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Irish Rail, ESB, etc etc

Waterford Crystal is the second most visited tourist centre in Ireland. Why not charge a fee to Enter the gallery (Which at the moment is free) Increase the fee for the tourist trail.

How many businesses alone does the tourist trail/Visitor Centre support. How much VAT/PAYE/PRSI goes to the Govt each year, both direct through Crystal Employees and spin off business such as Hotels etc.

Offset this loss in earnings against an increase in Employment Benefit and what is the Nett Cost to the taxpayer?

Yet again, ladies & Gentlemen Waterford & the S.E are getting screwed over by this Govt.

Raskolnikov

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm sorry but you in particular are talking out your hole! I don't mean to attack the poster, so I'll attack the post.

The Clarion bid which would involve John Foley taking over the Waterford Crystal part of the company would not present this situation. His plan is to retain some production in Kilbarry (like his plan was while he was still CEO, before they ran out of money) for the next ten years. They promise that there would be cash flow within a few weeks which would get the operation back up and running and then they'd have to try to re-negotiate the redundancies and deal with the pension etc after that.

There is European Law that prevents a company being bought without inheriting its employees. But what the receiver has done may be a way around this. The receiver will have made the employees redundant and whoever takes over would be taking over a company with no employees. They're still not sure if this would circumvent the law and you can be sure there would be a European court case if it does go ahead that way.

Where are you getting this idea that Clarion have put a bid in on the company?

I'm don't take any pleasure in seeing this situation, but I am being realistic. With the huge liabilities, I don't see Clarion, KPS, or anyone wanting to touch Waterford Crystal with a 20-foot barge pole. The only way out of this that doesn't involve workers being stiffed is government money.

Raskolnikov

Bards wrote: »

Why not Part nationalise Waterford Crystal into a semi-state?

How much money does the Govt give Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Irish Rail, ESB, etc etc

Firstly, it would cost too much. Taxpayers would have to cover losses made by the company and pay and benefits that the workers receive. Secondly, when you nationalise one business, every failing business will want to be nationalised. Pretty soon the taxpayer would be on the hook for billions every year.

Bards wrote: »

Yet again, ladies & Gentlemen Waterford & the S.E are getting screwed over by this Govt.

Waterford Crystal is a private enterprise that has failed, the government has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

Freddie59

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Firstly, it would cost too much. Taxpayers would have to cover losses made by the company and pay and benefits that the workers receive. Secondly, when you nationalise one business, every failing business will want to be nationalised. Pretty soon the taxpayer would be on the hook for billions every year.
Waterford Crystal is a private enterprise that has failed, the government has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.

€1.2bn to Anglo Irish (MAY AS WELL HAVE BURNED IT).

More money thrown at the banks.

An attempt being made to write off developers debts.

And €39m couldn't be LOANED to Crystal. Because it would be 'anti-competitive'.

Amazing how those competition laws are sidelined when banks are involved. It's sickening.

THE BANKS ARE ALSO A PRIVATE ENTERPRISE THAT FAILED.

And I voted FF.:mad:

Raskolnikov

Two wrongs don't make a right, but your basic point shows the hypocrisy of Fianna Fail. I don't imagine they're too bothered about what's going on though. They'll always take two of the four seats in Waterford.

Newaglish

nkay1985 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I couldn't give a sh*t about the unsecured creditors. At least they'll get something somewhere down the line. There's a very real possibility that these workers won't get a penny.
You don't know that it's not going to achieve anything and if it only achieves a tiny amount, it'll help a great deal of people so you're completely wrong.

Let's say they manage to secure redundancy of 1 week per year's service because of all this. For someone there 30 years that's over half a year's pay more than what they're getting at the moment. If they're only on €700 per week, that's €21,000!!! Do you have any comprehension of the sums of money involved here? Think if this lasted two weeks and they got that much. Over €10,000 for one week of sleeping in a canteen. I know I'd do that.

They've got absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Is someone in the union telling all the employees that they aren't entitled to redundancy? Did you even read the end of my post?

Employees made redundant in a liquidation or receivership are entitled to statutory redundancy. If the company is insolvent, the DETE will cover the cost of providing this to employees.

If a union rep were staging a protest in order to get 1 week's pay per year of service, I'd probably have them fired. Statutory redundancy is two weeks per year of service, plus one bonus week. On top of that, I've never come across a case where a receiver would pay an ex-gratia redundancy amount in an insolvency situation, I'm 99% sure it wouldn't be compliant with company law.

In many cases employees will get a lot more than unsecured creditors so I don't see how you can justify your point above.

@rambler924: I see where you're coming from but the reason a liquidator/receiver won't give notice to employees and keep them continuing to work is that things generally turn to chaos: theft of company stock and property damage become widespread in scenarios where people have full access to the company site but have no responsibility to keep working. Clearly this isn't always the case and it might not be in Waterford Crystal, but it's standard practice in this situation.

Hartyk87

Im all in favour and wishing you all well in this sit in. My father worked with waterford crystal. If the goverment was any good they would have this fantstic company under its wing and Dungarvan would still be there today.

nkay1985

Newaglish wrote: »

Is someone in the union telling all the employees that they aren't entitled to redundancy? Did you even read the end of my post?

I'm not talking about statutory redundancy. I'm talking about redundancy pay that the employers give redundant employees in most case. Under the redundancy deal before the company went into receivership, someone there 30 years was getting something like €60,000 or €70,000 from Waterford Wedgewood and their statutory redundancy also. Being made redundant by the receiver, they're only getting their statutory. Like the 20 voluntary redundancies in Bausch & Lomb at the moment, the deal is 4 weeks from the company which is based on your salary and 2 weeks from the government which is capped at €600 a week.

ec18

The bank bailout is different to this one. Yes both were brought about by bad management decisions. But if waterford crystal fails the effects would be relatively localised to the south east. But if the banks fail then the whole country is even more screwed than it currently is

Sully

I dislike FF as much as the next guy but you cant expect them to nationalise a company that is a dot on their radar. Sure its a major tourism attraction but do you expect every such attraction be bailed out and nationalised to prevent closure?

The banks had a much MUCH bigger effect on this country then the Crystal factory ever will. I personally think that Anglo should have been shut down but clearly the government disagreed and decided to keep it running by them.

Nationalising/saving banks is completely different then saving a big company. You cant compare them.

Bards

....Except this is not just anoter Company. This is our heritage we are talking about. all those skills are going to be lost forever.

Banks can come and go, they don;t add anything of value to society, have no heritage or culture, are the same the World over.

What we have here in Waterford Crystal is unique to Waterford and no-where else on the planet. It probably does more for promoting Irish Tourism abroad than Bord Failte

If we loose control of the Brand and it moves to the U.S or S.E Asia then it will really be a sad day for Ireland.

Sully

Bards wrote: »

....Except this is not just anoter Company. This is our heritage we are talking about. all those skills are going to be lost forever.

Banks can come and go, they don;t add anything of value to society, have no heritage or culture, are the same the World over.

What we have here in Waterford Crystal is unique to Waterford and no-where else on the planet. It probably does more for promoting Irish Tourism abroad than Bord Failte

If we loose control of the Brand and it moves to the U.S or S.E Asia then it will really be a sad day for Ireland.

I know what you are saying. I am just not sure if the government can step in and try save such a business because it is one of the biggest tourist attractions for Ireland.

Banks may "come and go" but I think its a bit different then comparing it with Waterford Crystal.

Besides, Failte Ireland South East have already stated that the tourist centre will remain. The receiver seems to confirm this in recent statements. Tourists don't always buy crystal when they come over - they come to see the manufacturing (which I believe one or two will remain for tourists) and the different results.

You will also note that the government have said very little (bar Martin Cullen, who lets face it is always where news for Waterford is) compared to when Dell left. No strategy setup, no interview on TV/Radio from the two main heads. The government are acting right now with little interest compared to other businesses shutting up shop. And we have posters here who are claiming its bigger then the banks!

next

Could someone explain the way the pensions work, did the employees pay a certain amount and if so how did the company use this without the employees permission surely this would be theft, I thought the pensions were paid into a company like Irish Life or something like that,

Sully

next wrote: »

Could someone explain the way the pensions work, did the employees pay a certain amount and if so how did the company use this without the employees permission surely this would be theft, I thought the pensions were paid into a company like Irish Life or something like that,

The scheme, which is administered by trustees, has a deficit of liabilities over assets of more than €111 million, according to the group's most recent financial results. The situation is likely to have deteriorated as the stock markets in which pensions funds invest slipped further in the final quarter of 2008.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0106/1230936700599.html

I assume they paid in X amount from each wage and it all collects up. Then I guess they just raded it to help the company which had big debts.

nkay1985

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Where are you getting this idea that Clarion have put a bid in on the company?

I was "getting this idea" from the fact that it was them who the Union officials were meeting with last Thursday evening to discuss their pending bid which has been made late last night, I believe.

The workers are giving the Clarion bid their full backing and want nothing to do with KPS as they want to ship it all off and have nothing to do with Waterford. They've not kept any communication lines open with the unions or anyone. They just don't give a shite. Foley isn't much of a manager but at least he's dedicated to keeping Waterford Crystal Irish.

Could be big developments tomorrow I reckon because the receiver has received two bids over the weekend. There are people coming in to show their support for the workers. And a protest march is being organised for Wednesday evening. If anyone wants to show their support, that's the time to do it.

Meanwhile, the workers are getting massive support from local businesses. Tony Walsh from The Tap Room sent down vats of stew for them today. And Nicky's furniture provided a number of mattresses so they aren't sleeping on the ground.

However this works out, I think it's been great to see the level of support shown throughout the city. Goes to show that we can still count on each other in bad times and that quality will be more and more important than ever in the coming 12 months.

Sully

Is there any talk about the unions taking legal action against the government for failing to protect the scheme? The Irish Government failed to introduce EU legislation which was to protect the scheme. They have also stated a few weeks ago they wont bail the scheme out.

Trade union officials have been addressed a meeting of around 700 Waterford Crystal employees and former staff on developments regarding the company's future.

A senior official with the trade union UNITE, Walter Cullen, said that one of the two potential buyers for Waterford Crystal is no longer interested in maintaining jobs in Waterford.

He said he has been told by the receiver the proposal that New York-based private equity firm KPS had put forward is only related to keeping the crystal brand and not the jobs at Waterford
Advertisement

Mr Cullen also said the other company interested in purchasing the company - Clarion Investments - has now made another bid.

Speaking on RTÉ's This Week, Minister for Arts, Sport & Tourism, Martin Cullen, said the Clarion consortium last night lodged a bid for the company.

He said the Government wants to maintain the Waterford brand in Ireland and stands ready through the state agencies to invest in the company.

The occupation of the visitor centre and factory in Kilbarry is continuing with 60 workers expected to remain overnight. They will be joined by colleagues tomorrow to bring the number to over 200.

Workers are protesting at the decision by the receiver to stop manufacturing and make 480 staff redundant.

Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0201/wedgwood.html

nkay1985: Im not sure if any of my business can offer anything as we dont have food/furniture to send down. If there is anything feel free to give me a shout as I am more then happy to help. I fully support what you guys are trying to do and wish you all the best.

next

maybe if we knew what was needed and posted it here ?

brendansmith

What a terrible day for Waterford.

RIP

Bards

next wrote: »

Could someone explain the way the pensions work, did the employees pay a certain amount and if so how did the company use this without the employees permission surely this would be theft, I thought the pensions were paid into a company like Irish Life or something like that,

A pension fund is like a big Savings Pot. Workers and the company pay money into it. This works well when there are more employees paying into the fund than they're are workers who have retired and extracting money from the Pot.

In Waterford Crystal's case a lot of workers have retired and there are not enough new workers comming into the business to keep the pot full, hence the drain on the fund.

There is now only enough left to keep the existing retired workers in pensions while there is not enough for employees who are retiring now.

deise girlie

It was on the news this morning that they are back in work today. Just goes to show we need to start standing up for ourselves cause this government certainly isn't doing it for us.

WELL DONE LADS!!!!

next

deise girlie wrote: »

It was on the news this morning that they are back in work today. Just goes to show we need to start standing up for ourselves cause this government certainly isn't doing it for us.

WELL DONE LADS!!!!

maybe I'm wrong but I think its only about 40 are back in work

next

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Baby4

This post has been deleted.

kilkennycat2004

nkay1985 wrote: »

Under the redundancy deal before the company went into receivership, someone there 30 years was getting something like €60,000 or €70,000 from Waterford Wedgewood and their statutory redundancy also. Being made redundant by the receiver, they're only getting their statutory.

Some of these payments are connected to the s**t the company got itself into .
While I'm all for keeping the visitors centre, (essential for waterford tourism), & some jobs in Waterford if possible, under no circumstances should government money be used to bail out a failed enterprise.
General job creation is more important for the area in the current climate.

Baby4

This post has been deleted.

akaredtop

Waterford Glass is a failed business. Nobody wants the product so why make it.I'm afraid the workers will have to face reality.

mike65

Anglo-Irish failing would have panicked the whole banking sector - thats your current and savings accounts (sure its guaranteed but the cost to the state coming good on same would be massive).

As regards events today, about 250 are in work keeping stuff ticking over and they are also part of the protest when not working.