Civilian targets

K-9 · 30-01-2009 9:18pm #1

Ok, following on from the other thread that was going off topic but was getting interesting, do you think that civilian death by the IRA were casualties of war, unintentional or was there a targeted campaign to murder civilians?

I'd prefer if we can keep this solely IRA related as I think the vast majority of people are aware of British shoot to kill etc. policies and Loyalist sectarian killers.

Sand · 30-01-2009 9:58pm

civilian death by the IRA were casualties of war, unintentional or was there a targeted campaign to murder civilians?

Of course there was a targeted campaign to murder civillians. Why do you think they bombed so many main streets, pubs, resteraunts, and other public civillian targets? Thats not even considering the campaign they waged against civillians in their own areas - the punishment beatings, torture and execution of those who offended them.

The Provos did everything possible to avoid engaging military opposition - the Balcombe Street gang are loved by the Provos for throwing nail bombs into London resteraunts at unarmed families, but couldnt surrender fast enough when faced with the prospect of going up against armed and trained soldiers. I mean, the Provos feel its an outrage that when the British shot at them, they intended to kill them...

Pandcoa · 30-01-2009 10:21pm

K-9 wrote: »

Ok, following on from the other thread that was going off topic but was getting interesting, do you think that civilian death by the IRA were casualties of war, unintentional or was there a targeted campaign to murder civilians?

I'd prefer if we can keep this solely IRA related as I think the vast majority of people are aware of British shoot to kill etc. policies and Loyalist sectarian killers.

There was never an intentional policy by the leadership to directly target civilians. If they had then there would have been a much larger civilian death toll. That is not to say they tried too hard to prevent civvie casualties in operations as many bombings will show, often pubs and discos where bombed purely because they were considered 'soldiers' hangouts - that is just plain lazy and morally corrupt from a supposed professional organisation if you ask me. Other economic targets I feel just not enough pressure was placed upon volunteers to minimise innocent casualties. This didn't matter early in the troubles when British army killings almost equaled IRA killings but later on when the Army did clean up their actions and given a moral high ground, there was more pressure to ensure as little civilian casulties as possible - which was extremely hard to do in that business.

Reprisal killings does challenge this view but reactionary tactics (unjustifable though they are) does not in my mind constitude that the IRA always had the intention of killing innocent people. They were divisive within the organisation themselves. The reason for these horrendous attacks was rooted in a loyalist challenge to the IRA's proud claim that they were defenders of their community, they feared a loss of support in their community and return of "IRA = I ran away". The provos had a simple if brutal attitude towards loyalist killings. To retaliate with excessive but deliberately directed killings on the unionist community to force the UDA/UVF to cease targeting their community. Take Kingsmills for example, this was in retaliation for the murder of 5 catholics. However this only intensified their campaign of killing innocents and for a while tit for tat actions occured each trying to put other out of action. Of course many within recognised that they were extremely counter productive actions that only alienated support, vital support from southern families who offered shelter and land so a restrained retailiation policy by the Army coucil was put in place at some point. To be honest I don't know how effective these actions were in stopping loyalist attacks on the community but the fact that it went on for so long shows it wasn't very.

Pandcoa · 30-01-2009 10:39pm

Sand wrote: »

Of course there was a targeted campaign to murder civillians. Why do you think they bombed so many main streets, pubs, resteraunts, and other public civillian targets? Thats not even considering the campaign they waged against civillians in their own areas - the punishment beatings, torture and execution of those who offended them.

Economic targets and their operations were not very well carried out either by an apathetic attitude to civilian deaths, poor preparation or simple unrealiable equipment and bombs. They did assume a policing role of their local communities, and honestly they weren't soft on people, joy riding would gain you a beating, robbing houses, drug dealing would get kneecaping an re offenders might even get executed though it's not as common as the media would have liked you to believe. They felt it nessary to do this since many in the nationalist community couldn't approach the RUC. But please don't be so ignorant to believe that something as simple as disagreeing with local men would gain you their attention, that's just laughable.

The Provos did everything possible to avoid engaging military opposition - the Balcombe Street gang are loved by the Provos for throwing nail bombs into London resteraunts at unarmed families, but couldnt surrender fast enough when faced with the prospect of going up against armed and trained soldiers. I mean, the Provos feel its an outrage that when the British shot at them, they intended to kill them...

Cool story bro, got a source?

pwd · 30-01-2009 10:43pm

Pandcoa wrote: »

Economic targets and their operations were not very well carried out either by an apathetic attitude to civilian deaths, poor preparation or simple unrealiable equipment and bombs. They did assume a policing role of their local communities, and honestly they weren't soft on people, joy riding would gain you a beating, robbing houses, drug dealing would get kneecaping an re offenders might even get executed though it's not as common as the media would have liked you to believe. They felt it nessary to do this since many in the nationalist community couldn't approach the RUC. But please don't be so ignorant to believe that something as simple as disagreeing with local men would gain you their attention, that's just laughable.

Cool story bro, got a source?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/315216.stm

Pandcoa · 30-01-2009 10:53pm

pwd wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/315216.stm

Thanks but I was referring to the accusation that the provos prefered to target civilians than soldiers which to me is downright ludacris. If they had wanted to, they could have killed thousands more civilians and not killed any soldiers by that thinking

Fionnanc · 30-01-2009 11:16pm

Deliberate murders of civilians.The IRA hoped by murdering English civilians in English towns with bombs in public places they would get what they want. IRA members should be sharing cells with the Serbian leaders in the Hague

A Dub in Glasgo · 30-01-2009 11:42pm

Fionnanc wrote: »

IRA members should be sharing cells with the Serbian leaders in the Hague

They should be sharing cells with many many others including the British, Americans and Israelis to name three.

K-9 · 31-01-2009 1:10am

Pandcoa wrote: »

But please don't be so ignorant to believe that something as simple as disagreeing with local men would gain you their attention, that's just laughable.

What did Robert McCartney do?

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-01-2009 1:34am

K-9 wrote: »

What did Robert McCartney do?

He got in a fight to defend his RIRA mate who sexually harassed the wife of a local republican.

And lost.

K-9 · 31-01-2009 1:36am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

He got in a fight to defend his RIRA mate who sexually harassed the wife of a local republican.

And lost.

Even if that was completely true (links btw?), he got what was coming to him?

This is the problem with vigilantes!

Anyway, was Enniskillen a legitimate target?

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-01-2009 1:37am

Fionnanc wrote: »

Deliberate murders of civilians.The IRA hoped by murdering English civilians in English towns with bombs in public places they would get what they want. IRA members should be sharing cells with the Serbian leaders in the Hague

If you can name me one IRA bombing that was designed to "murder English civilians in English towns with bombs in public places" I will throw €100 at the charity of your choice.

Mods to referee?

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 1:38am

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

They should be sharing cells with many many others including the British, Americans and Israelis to name three.

as well as a few Irish the kind who gave you your freedom to post such nonsence.

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-01-2009 1:40am

K-9 wrote: »

Even if that was completely true (links btw?), he got what was coming to him?

This is the problem with vigilantes!

No, it was a horrific murder.

But he was not as squeaky clean as he was presented.

K-9 wrote: »

Anyway, was Enniskillen a legitimate target?

Not that place at that time.

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 1:41am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If you can name me one IRA bombing that was designed to "murder English civilians in English towns with bombs in public places" I will throw €100 at the charity of your choice.

Mods to referee?

warrington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks
and you can send the donation to boards santa strike force

OhNoYouDidn't · 31-01-2009 1:47am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

warrington
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrington_bomb_attacks
and you can send the donation to boards santa strike force

Wrong.

The attack was on a gasworks.

As a Republican those two childrens deaths outraged me. It was a callus and careless attack. But the intent was not to kill those kids.

And I really will not take a lecture in morality from a bunker in Tel Aviv

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 2:16am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Wrong.

The attack was on a gasworks.

As a Republican those two childrens deaths outraged me. It was a callus and careless attack. But the intent was not to kill those kids.

And I really will not take a lecture in morality from a bunker in Tel Aviv

maybe try reading the article before you jump on your high horse
the second bomb was outside a boots store and an argos how was that not meant to kill anyone?
or is that zionist propoganda and because it did not come from "your sources" it is biased against the republican movement?

as a republican you seem to think im sitting in a bunker in TEL AVIV
as a republican you have shown ignorance and stupidity in the post you wrote
Im sitting in an apartment in dublin.
how many IRA attacks do you condone ?

K-9 · 31-01-2009 2:18am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If you can name me one IRA bombing that was designed to "murder English civilians in English towns with bombs in public places" I will throw €100 at the charity of your choice.

Mods to referee?

.

Warrington

Canary Wharf

PS. Warrenpoint was army tactical genius as admitted by British Army sources.

Shows you, when well planned, the IRA could target Army targets only.

K-9 · 31-01-2009 2:20am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, it was a horrific murder.

But he was not as squeaky clean as he was presented.

Exactly my point, he didn't deserve what happened to him. Come on admit it, you'll gain respect for admitting it was a wrong murder.

PS. THE second attack. Stop being selective.

At 11:58am on 20 March 1993, the telephone help charity The Samaritans received a coded message that a bomb was going to be detonated outside the Boots shop in Liverpool, fifteen miles away from Warrington. Merseyside Police investigated, and also warned the Cheshire Constabulary (who patrolled Warrington) of the threat, but it was too late to evacuate. At 12:12pm two bombs exploded, one outside Boots on Bridge Street and one outside the Argos catalogue store. It later turned out that the bombs had been placed inside cast-iron litter bins, causing large amounts of shrapnel.

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 2:28am

K-9 wrote: »

.

Warrington

Canary Wharf

PS. Warrenpoint was army tactical genius as admitted by British Army sources.

Shows you, when well planned, the IRA could target Army targets only.

K9 just as a slight ot point can you explain how it was tactical genius
not having a go just curious thats all.

K-9 · 31-01-2009 2:45am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

K9 just as a slight ot point can you explain how it was tactical genius
not having a go just curious thats all.

As a guerilla attack that resulted in as many army deaths as possible and no civilian deaths.

AFAIK, it was the biggest death toll in one incident until Omagh. 18 I think.

The first bomb attacked an Army convoy. They hid for shelter.

The second bomb was planted exactly were any Army would hide for shelter.

Classic Guerilla warfare as admitted by a British Army chief. Source may have been The Dirty War, can't remember.

Seanies32 AKA K-9

Just saying when the IRA wanted it, they could plan military targets.

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 2:48am

K-9 wrote: »

As a guerilla attack that resulted in as many army deaths as possible and no civilian deaths.

AFAIK, it was the biggest death toll in one incident until Omagh. 18 I think.

The first bomb attacked an Army convoy. They hid for shelter.

The second bomb was planted exactly were any Army would hide for shelter.

Classic Guerilla warfare as admitted by a British Army chief. Source may have been The Dirty War, can't remember.

Just saying when the IRA wanted it, they could plan military targets.

ah yes narrow water I know it now
wasnt that not warren point ?

ah just re read your post there was mixing up my points with my tons
sorry

K-9 · 31-01-2009 2:50am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

ah yes narrow water I know it now
wasnt that not warren point ?

ah just re read your post there was mixing up my points with my tons
sorry

I think it's Warrenpoint, Co. Down.

Anyway, a well planned Guerilla attack. If only the IRA stuck to that policy?

pwd · 31-01-2009 2:51am

K-9 wrote: »

Exactly my point, he didn't deserve what happened to him. Come on admit it, you'll gain respect for admitting it was a wrong murder.

a wrong murder huh?

OhNoYouDidn't wrote:

And I really will not take a lecture in morality from a bunker in Tel Aviv

wow. You really established yourself on the moral high ground there alright.

K-9 · 31-01-2009 2:53am

pwd wrote: »

a wrong murder huh?

Do go on.

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 2:58am

I think he was being sarcastic

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 2:59am

K-9 wrote: »

I think it's Warrenpoint, Co. Down.

Anyway, a well planned Guerilla attack. If only the IRA stuck to that policy?

but then there cowardly leadership wou;d have to get up off there asses and work a bit instaead of barking orders in a pub

K-9 · 31-01-2009 3:07am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

but then there cowardly leadership wou;d have to get up off there asses and work a bit instaead of barking orders in a pub

Exactly, it became a power thing, as in power over our own Community, as shown by McCartney.

When your people are in fear of you, you've lost the people.

I suppose my point is the IRA could have been a good thing, but human nature ruins it, similar to a thread on Communism on AH!

The IRA did some good things and many terrible things.

A perfect example is the Hunger Strikes. Brave, brave men exploited for political means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Hughes

IRISH RAIL · 31-01-2009 3:16am

K-9 wrote: »

A perfect example is the Hunger Strikes. Brave, brave men exploited for political means.

QUOTE]

ah yes but they wernt in prision for walking there dog

K-9 · 31-01-2009 3:19am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

K-9 wrote: »

A perfect example is the Hunger Strikes. Brave, brave men exploited for political means.

QUOTE]

ah yes but they wernt in prision for walking there dog

Indeed, still the sacrifice.

Anything you'd do that for?

pwd · 31-01-2009 3:34am

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

I think he was being sarcastic

yup

Civilian targets

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