Civilian targets

Bottle_of_Smoke

FTA69 wrote: »

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Nonsense. You said you blame the IRA for the formation of these groups despite the fact the UVF was killing people for a good 3 years before the Provos even existed. I don't have to twist anything, as your obvious lack of understanding on the topic at hand is all to evident. It's such a lazy argument to blame the IRA for manifestations of racist Loyalism which have existed since they were first planted here.



No they weren't, not since the 50s anyway. The IRA by the late 60s was a spent force and wasn't a threat to anyone, in fact they were completely inactive in a military sense. The formation of the UVF and the UDA were simply recent phases in Loyalist militarism which spread back centuries and were motivated out of a siege mentality and the need to keep the Taigs in the box.



Not half. Sure wasn't a 15 year old boy stabbed to death in Ballymena by known members of the UVF no more than a year ago? The people of Short Strand were subjected to a continuous barrage of bullets, pipe-bombs etc for months during the summer of 2002. There have also been ongoing campaigns in Stoneyford as well as Ligoneil. Up until a year ago Loyalist paramilitaries (when not killing each other over drugs) were invovled in sectarian attacks in a number of areas.


No, but apparently you're "pointing the finger at the PIRA" because a shower of twisted psychopaths decided to slice up innocent people with butcher knives.

Yeah, and they came about before the IRA in its current formation even existed. Basically you're blaming the worst excesses of Loyalism on the IRA which is wholly innaccurate.

Read the posts again. There's no point in me arguing further, you'll just put further quotes of your own in my mouth. I'll give you an analogy. If someone says the IRA came about and were successful because of the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland by the Unionist society it doesn't mean they condone acts of terrorism by the IRA.

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

There is NO DOUBT that the Provisional IRA deliberately Murdered innocent people!

The catalogue of deaths in Northern Ireland is very transparent for all to see, as to who killed who in the Troubles, but I am getting the distinct impression from this Thread that some posters are pretending (in hindsight) that the IRA didn't deliberately Murder Civilians :mad:

This is cause for concern.

If its so transparent, no doubt you can share with us what these atrocities were.

No-one here has defended or condoned what the PIRA did in showing disregard for civilian life on occasion, but there has yet to be one event listed in the tens of thousands of bombs they planted that can be pointed at as a deliberate attempt to kill English civilians with a bomb, which will win the charity of your choice €100.

OhNoYouDidn't

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh right, it was the South Armagh Catholic Reaction Force; a completely autonomous and independent group whose members consisted of completely unaffiliated indivudals. Although one has to ask the question, how does a micro-group of South Armagh farmers acquire American AR-15 assault rifles.

I don't believe it was the Army proper who was behind it, but to deny IRA members were involved is a bit far fetched. Either way it was a shameful episode.

which goes back to my point that the Army Council would not have sanctioned such attacks.....

LordSutch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If its so transparent, no doubt you can share with us what these atrocities were.

I really dont believe that you dont know what the IRA did :cool:

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No-one here has defended or condoned what the PIRA did in showing disregard for civilian life on occasion, but there has yet to be one event listed in the tens of thousands of bombs they planted that can be pointed at as a deliberate attempt to kill English civilians with a bomb, which will win the charity of your choice €100.

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

TOMASJ

Originally Posted by OhNoYouDidn't
No-one here has defended or condoned what the PIRA did in showing disregard for civilian life on occasion, but there has yet to be one event listed in the tens of thousands of bombs they planted that can be pointed at as a deliberate attempt to kill English civilians with a bomb, which will win the charity of your choice €100.

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

Im aware of quite a few occasions when loyalists/british army deliberately targeted and killed civilians but am not aware of same by the IRA,

open to correction if you can provide evidence where they did.

Sand

Im aware of quite a few occasions when loyalists/british army deliberately targeted and killed civilians but am not aware of same by the IRA,

Of course youre not.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own ... but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them

OhNoYouDidn't

Sand wrote: »

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own ... but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

Here were are on page 7 and no-one has yet listed one of these alledged attempts to kill civilians.

Camelot wrote: »

I really dont believe that you dont know what the IRA did :cool:

Fully aware.

Camelot wrote: »

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

Again, we are not discussing atrocities. We are discussing whether the PIRA deliberatly targetted civilians.

I repeat, page 7 and not one listed.

TOMASJ

Sand wrote: »

Of course youre not.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own ... but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them [/quote

Why don't you enlighten everyone then, refute that remarkable capacity for not hearing about IRA atrocities,

Armin_Tamzarian

FTA69 wrote: »

Kingsmills. Although to be fair that was an isolated incident as opposed to the campaign itself being directed against civilian targets.

Hi, I spoke about Kingsmilll in a previous post on page 3.
IMO one of the worst attacks perpetrated by Republicans during the troubles, mainly because only the Protestant workers were killed and the Catholics were allowed to live.
Blatant sectarianism at it's worst.

However I still believe a distinction should be made.
Republicans viewed anyone who was assisting the British security forces as being a collaborator and thus an enemy.
This would include informers and civilians who worked at army bases / RUC stations.
So if you folllow the IRA mindset then, the victims weren't innocent civilians like those killed at Warrington etc. but they were enemy collaborators.

Regarding the identities of the culprits, I don't think it's ever been established who they were for sure.
I'd be of the opinion though that the group mainly consisted of PIRA members, operating under a name of convenience.

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

There is NO DOUBT that the Provisional IRA deliberately Murdered innocent people!

The catalogue of deaths in Northern Ireland is very transparent for all to see, as to who killed who in the Troubles, but I am getting the distinct impression from this Thread that some posters are pretending (in hindsight) that the IRA didn't deliberately Murder Civilians :mad:

This is cause for concern.

I for one have the opinion that you disagree with and I'm certainly not pretending about anything.
I'm sure there are exceptions, as there are to most rules,
but I still hold by my view that the IRA didn't deliberately murder innocent civilians.
I'd imagine that cases of IRA members murdering people solely because they were, say, Protestant were down to the actions of individuals as opposed to overall strategy.

Any examples that you can produce of the IRA deliberately murdering
civilians would be appreciated and would add to the discussion.

Armin_Tamzarian

FTA69 wrote: »

Although one has to ask the question, how does a micro-group of South Armagh farmers acquire American AR-15 assault rifles.

Now that's a good point...

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

Some specific examples would really help to illustrate your point.

LordSutch

The Enniskillen Remembrance Day Massacre

Just before 11.00am on 8th November 1987 a Provisional IRA bomb exploded without warning as people gathered at the war memorial in Enniskillen for the annual Remembrance Day service. Eleven people were killed and 63 injured, nine of them seriously, when the three-story gable wall of St Michael's Reading Rooms crashed down burying people in several feet of rubble.
The Provisional IRA admitted responsibility the following day.

Many of those killed and injured in the blast had come to honour soldiers killed in action. Amateur video footage of the immediate aftermath horrified people in both communities and around the World, the bombing was condemned on all sides.

The "Poppy day massacre victims are as follows:

William Mullen 72 yrs, married with children and retired (Civilian)
Angus Mullen 70 yrs married (Civilian)
Kitchener Johnson 70 yrs married murdered with his wife Jessie (Civilian)
Wesley Armstrong 62 yrs married murdered with his wife Bertha (Civilian)
John Megaw 68yrs (Civilian)
Edward Armstrong 52 yrs member of the 'Chosen Few' Orange Lodge and a member of the RUCR
Georgina Quinton 72 yrs widow with four children. (Civilian)
Marie Wilson 20 yrs single and was a nurse (Civilian)
Samuel Gault 49 yrs (Civilian)

All of the dead were Protestants and civilains apart from one man who was a member of the Reserve RUC.

As these people and others stood waiting to remember the dead of the Two World Wars and other past and present conflicts in the World. The Provisional IRA/Sinn Fein detonated a bomb with no warning being given. This time the IRA/Sinn Fein had murdered Protestants engaged in a solemn act of remembrance and reaffirmation of their heritage. This heinous act was done while the town of Enniskillen prepared to remembered their kith and kin who died and were injured in past wars and the present 'Troubles' in Northern Ireland. This IRA/Sinn Fein bomb containing 40 IB of gelignite was hidden in a community hall just behind where the victims stood to commemorate their dead and all others throughout the World.

Enniskillen 1987 + One IRA Atrocity = 11 murdered, 63 injured.

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

Enniskillen 1987 + One IRA Atrocity = 11 murdered, 63 injured.

Yes Camelot that was a tragic day,and eight civilians were killed but the target on that day was members of the RUC who usually stood beside that wall the bomb was planted behind,
It was said at the time by republican sources that a british army electronic device was responsably for detonating that bomb, it was of a type the british army used to explode IRA bombs previousally killing IRA members in the process of moving and planting bombs.

LordSutch

The above :rolleyes: is exactly why I hesitated to start listing IRA Atrocities, because for every IRA Atrocity there will be an excuse from IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters, I could start listing all the other IRA murders over the 35 year duration of the Troubles, but somehow it seems pointless in this company.

"The litany of IRA murders are wldely available on the internet for all to see"

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

The above :rolleyes: is exactly why I hesitated to start listing IRA Atrocities, because for every IRA Atrocity there will be an excuse from IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters, I could start listing all the other IRA murders over the 35 year duration of the Troubles, but somehow it seems pointless in this company.

"The litany of IRA murders are wldely available on the internet for all to see"

Camelot, with the greatest of respect, its fundamentally rude to call people "IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters" when you clearly have not taken the time to read the thread and understand what the actual topic at hand is.

LordSutch

This Thread is called 'Civilian targets' 10 of which were murdered by the IRA in Enniskillen!

And with the greatest of respect to you > A Bomb was planted and detonated by the provisional IRA, whereupon TEN Civilians were murdered & sixty three injured while attending a Remembrance Day Service !

The lowest of the low > planting a Bomb at a Remembrance Day Service :mad:

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

The above :rolleyes: is exactly why I hesitated to start listing IRA Atrocities, because for every IRA Atrocity there will be an excuse from IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters, I could start listing all the other IRA murders over the 35 year duration of the Troubles, but somehow it seems pointless in this company.

"The litany of IRA murders are wldely available on the internet for all to see"

Camelot, as you say yes there are lists available of people killed by the IRA, and lists of killings carried out by the british army and others involved in the past troubles, but the question was, did the IRA target civilians deliberately, and your post about the Enniskillen killings does not prove that it those killings, awful as they were, they were not carried out deliberately

LordSutch

Of course the murders were deliberate, what else could they be > for God's sake man, a Bomb was planted at a Remembrance Day Service by the Cenotaph in Enniskillen, the place was packed with civilians singing Hymn's & remembering the war dead :mad:

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

Of course the murders were deliberate, what else could they be > for God's sake man, a Bomb was planted at a Remembrance Day Service by the Cenotaph in Enniskillen, the place was packed with civilians singing Hymn's & remembering the war dead :mad:

The bombing was deliberate but the same can't be said in all certaintly about the intention to kill innocent civilians.
As another poster stated, it is believed that the IRA were targeting members of the security forces, UDR I believe.

I do take on board what you are saying though.
It is possible that the intention was just to kill indiscriminatrely.
That the perpatrators felt that it was ok to kill anyone who was there as they were attending a poppy laying ceremony.

Personally, I really don't think that's the case.
The fact that all eleven victims were innocent civilians strengthens the
case that something went wrong.
The place was full of soldiers / RUC, obviously the IRA would have aimed
to kill them before any civilians.

I dug up a quote which also strengthens my argument and actually
strengthens the entire argument that the IRA didn't intentionally target innocent civilians.

The quote is from a man named Norman Baxter, he was a Detective Chief Superintendent who was charged with invesigating the Enniskillen bombing.

Here's what his opinion is,
"The civilians were collateral to the bomb but they were prepared to
accept the number of casualties."

Sounds very similar to what myself and others have been saying in this thread.

LordSutch

Lucky I dont give up easily > you just cannot just brush aside those murders like they meant nothing, and then make excuses for what the IRA did, there is no bloody excuse for what happened that day, or any other day that the IRA decided to plant Bombs which would kill & maim Men Women & Children.

I for one will Not let the IRA off the Hook (Zero excuses) :mad:

Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............

FTA69

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

However I still believe a distinction should be made.
Republicans viewed anyone who was assisting the British security forces as being a collaborator and thus an enemy.
This would include informers and civilians who worked at army bases / RUC stations.
So if you folllow the IRA mindset then, the victims weren't innocent civilians like those killed at Warrington etc. but they were enemy collaborators.

The people killed at Kingsmills were ordinary workers in a nearby linen factory, you're thinking of Teebane in Tyrone where workers repairing a British Army base were killed in 1992 I believe. There is a distinction between the two.

Kingsmills occurred during the first IRA ceasefire which lasted 11 months. During this ceasefire Loyalists went on an unprecedented killing spree and they wiped out two local families in South Armagh in two savage home invasions. The group of Loyalists responsible also perpetrated the Miami Showband massacre and it consisted of UVF/UDR members, aided by elements in British intelligence, specifically the soon-to-be-deceased Robert Nairac. My guess is that South Armagh being South Armagh were not going to tolerate this in their own backyard and individual members of that brigade decided to send a message, it worked, and no more civilians were killed by Loyalists in South Armagh. This however, is not a justification for what happened. It was a disgusting example of sectarianism which runs contrary to Republicanism and in my opinion is the biggest stain on the IRA's record.

Camelot,

Whether you care to admit it or not the Enniskillen bomb was planted with a view to targetting the UDR guard of honour at the ceremony. It was indeed a callous act, and what happened there was in no uncertain terms, wrong. However to suggest that they set out to kill as many civilians as possible is incorrect. Enniskillen was one of the biggest ever disasters for the IRA, what had they to gain by targetting civilians?

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

Of course the murders were deliberate, what else could they be > for God's sake man, a Bomb was planted at a Remembrance Day Service by the Cenotaph in Enniskillen, the place was packed with civilians singing Hymn's & remembering the war dead :mad:

If you want to portray deliberate killings of civilians, can you give a comparison to for instance Greystee,l Loughin Island, Pointspass, Grahams bookie, to name a few,in all of these cases no IRA were targeted just inocent people.

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

Lucky I dont give up easily > you just cannot just brush aside those murders like they meant nothing, and then make excuses for what the IRA did, there is no bloody excuse for what happened that day, or any other day that the IRA decided to plant Bombs which would kill & maim Men Women & Children.

I for one will Not let the IRA off the Hook (Zero excuses) :mad:

Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............

I really think that you should go back and read the first post in the thread.
We're not trying to brush anything aside or excuse the deaths of all these innocent people.

We're simply debating whether the intention was to kill innocent civilians or not.

Armin_Tamzarian

FTA69 wrote: »

The people killed at Kingsmills were ordinary workers in a nearby linen factory, you're thinking of Teebane in Tyrone where workers repairing a British Army base were killed in 1992 I believe. There is a distinction between the two.

Kingsmills occurred during the first IRA ceasefire which lasted 11 months. During this ceasefire Loyalists went on an unprecedented killing spree and they wiped out two local families in South Armagh in two savage home invasions. The group of Loyalists responsible also perpetrated the Miami Showband massacre and it consisted of UVF/UDR members, aided by elements in British intelligence, specifically the soon-to-be-deceased Robert Nairac. My guess is that South Armagh being South Armagh were not going to tolerate this in their own backyard and individual members of that brigade decided to send a message, it worked, and no more civilians were killed by Loyalists in South Armagh. This however, is not a justification for what happened. It was a disgusting example of sectarianism which runs contrary to Republicanism and in my opinion is the biggest stain on the IRA's record.

FTA69 you are completley correct.
I apologise I always fudge the details of those two incidents.

I agree comlpetely, Kingsmill was completely abhorrent and utterly indefensible.

It was a horrible and isolated example of the IRA sinking to the depths of Loyalist death squads.

Thanks for the clarification.

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............

Have you ever bothered to investigate who the Army & Police were protecting, just ask the family of Rose Mallon a old lady from Dungannon Co Tyrone how well they protected her , the actually video recorded the woman being shot dead by their murder squads and at no time intervened,

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

Lucky I dont give up easily > you just cannot just brush aside those murders like they meant nothing, and then make excuses for what the IRA did, there is no bloody excuse for what happened that day, or any other day that the IRA decided to plant Bombs which would kill & maim Men Women & Children.

WHO IS MAKING EXCUSES? You need to calm down and read the first post and re-engage in the thread when you have figured out what is actually being debated.

Camelot wrote: »

Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............

Now who is making excuses? If you are still going to claim that the RUC and British military were honest decent neutrals caught up in the middle of a war, you are the one with the agenda.

OhNoYouDidn't

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

FTA69 you are completley correct.
I apologise I always fudge the details of those two incidents.

I agree comlpetely, Kingsmill was completely abhorrent and utterly indefensible.

It was a horrible and isolated example of the IRA sinkings to the depths of Loyalist death squads.

Thanks for the clarification.

Tut tut tut. It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack.

Armin_Tamzarian

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Tut tut tut. It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack.

As I said in a previous post, I don't think it's ever been ascertained who exactly ordered and carried out this atrocity.
I would concur with you though and think that it was IRA members operating under a name of convenience and operating of their own accord.
I don't believe it was sanctioned by higher command.

LordSutch

In the last three posts you guys have exonerated the IRA for 'Kingsmill' as well as Enniskillen :cool:

So now, lets get this straight, Enniskillen was the fault of the Army who deliberately detonated the Bomb themselves (Post 115), and Kingsmill was not sanctioned from the Top, so thats two Atrocities the IRA were not responsible for (according to some apologetic posters here).

Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

mountainyman

TOMASJ wrote: »

If you want to portray deliberate killings of civilians, can you give a comparison to for instance Greystee,l Loughin Island, Pointspass, Grahams bookie, to name a few,in all of these cases no IRA were targeted just inocent people.

Whataboutery is a waste of time.

mountainyman

Camelot wrote: »

Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

That's true but the question was about civillian targets rather than collateral damage.

Irlbo

The IRA was and is as Ive stated before a Guerilla army,and they dont use tactics or actions that a regular army would use,they are not stone cold killers whose interest is to kill people,they just use covert gurilla methods through a cell system,executions,bombings,kidnappings are a dirty business but this was the only way the IRA could have fought the war they needed to wage against Britain,the IRA's targets are anything with British interest,and while targetting these interests,innocent people have died,its unfortunate but they blame lays at Britains door,if they want to forcibly occupy this country and oppress our people(we had internment,state sponsered murder,sectarian gerrymandering to prove this) then you will have an organised movement that will retaliate and strive for freedom and justice,the innocent civillains who have died due to republican actions deserve justice I will admit,but its not as simple as to say they were murdered,it is part of a much wider more complex issue,they are undoubtably casualities of war

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

In the last three posts you guys have exonerated the IRA for 'Kingsmill' as well as Enniskillen :cool:

So now, lets get this straight, Enniskillen was the fault of the Army who deliberately detonated the Bomb themselves (Post 115), and Kingsmill was not sanctioned from the Top, so thats two Atrocities the IRA were not responsible for (according to some apologetic posters here).

Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

May I suggest, one more time, that you go back to the beginning of the thread and read in in it's entirity, very slowly perhaps.
Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

Several people have made excellent posts, backed up with examples etc.

You on the other hand make comments such as,
"Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags ............. "

All you're doing is engaging in clichéd, anti-republican rhetoric.
You continue to make the same tired old statements without backing any of them up.
Also, the reason we are concentrating on civilian deaths is because that's the purpose of the thread.
Perhaps you'd be better starting a new thread of your own.
You could title it, "The IRA are murdering scum, fo you agree?"

Who exactly exonerated the IRA for Kingsmill and Enniskillen?
Was it words such as abhorrent and utterly indefensible that suggested that I thought it was ok for the IRA to carry out these acts.

Or perhaps it was statements such as "it was a disgusting example of sectarianism".

I may have expressed a belief that the Kingsmill massacre wasn't sanctioned by the IRA's upper leadership but I also stated that I believed that it was carried out by members of the IRA.

LordSutch

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

May I suggest, one more time, that you go back to the beginning of the thread and read in in it's entirity, very slowly perhaps.
Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

Seeing as you are intent on passing the buck, may I suggest that you go back to Post #114 and read it very very slowly (very slowly), taking in the names & ages of the Civilian victims, think about the occasion, think about the scene that day, and then THINK about what was done by the IRA to the Civilians of that Town > slowly.

Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

In the last three posts you guys have exonerated the IRA for 'Kingsmill' as well as Enniskillen :cool:

Who has exonerated anyone for anything? People have been quite clear in their condemnation of both these attacks. The fact you are deliberatly ignoring that and putting words in their mouths says a great deal more about you than them.

The debate is whether the IRA deliberatly targetted civilians in their campaign as opposed to collateral damage / lack of care in targetting.

Kingsmill was deliberatly done outside of the chain of command because even the leadership of that time would have opposed it and the local bigots knew it and Enniskillen was targetting the sectarian UDR who were due to be at the spot later. Why the bomb went off early is open to debate. Rumour has it McGuinness personally led the investigation into the locals.

Camelot wrote: »

Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

I would disagree about the RUC man, but thats incidental.

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

Seeing as you are intent on passing the buck, may I suggest that you go back to Post #114 and read it very very slowly (very slowly), taking in the names & ages of the Civilian victims, think about the occasion, think about the scene that day, and then THINK about what was done by the IRA to the Civilians of that Town > slowly.

Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

One last time. Do you think that the IRA targetted the UDR and made a balls of it, or that they targetted the local Protestant population and the mission was a 'success'?

LordSutch

The Provisional IRA deliberately targeted the Civilian population of Enniskillen (1987).

By the way 'OhNoYouDidn't' you did indeed absolve the IRA in Post 126 by saying that "It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack". and by saying this you are allowing the PIRA 'Hirearchy' to keep the moral high ground, which is totally irrelavent anyway, because the 'chain of command' was that of a Terrorist organisation.

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

The Provisional IRA deliberately targeted the Civilian population of Enniskillen (1987).

See, a straight answer wasn't that hard.

I disagree, all the evidence seems to point to a botched attempt at the UDR which had appaling consequences.

Camelot wrote: »

By the way 'OhNoYouDidn't' you did indeed absolve the IRA in Post 126 by saying that "It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack". and by saying this you are allowing the PIRA 'Hirearchy' to keep the moral high ground, which is totally irrelavent anyway, because the 'chain of command' was that of a Terrorist organisation.

The war is over Camelot, people are moving on, the DUP are in government with SF. What does that sort of bitterness achieve?

The locals decided to engage in sectarian slaughter and deliberatly kept the IRA out of the loop in the full knowledge that they did not allow that sort of thing. Are you denying that? Your own personal ideology should not colour your answer.

Fratton Fred

Are we also able to claim the Paras did not target innocent people, it was a few people acting outside the chain of command. That will then make bloody sunday ok and the current enquiry can be ended. Maybe we could claim the armoured car that entered croke park did not target civilians, it just opened fire and sadly some people were killed. How about the hiroshima bomb? Surely the yanks were only bombing a munitions factory and everyone else killed was "collateral damage". If you bomb public areas you are aiming to kill innocent people, the fact you try and make a phone call to a local newspaper may get you a few brownie points from your sympathisers, but at the end of the day, the intention is to kill people.

LordSutch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The locals decided to engage in sectarian slaughter and deliberatly kept the IRA out of the loop in the full knowledge that they did not allow that sort of thing. Are you denying that? Your own personal ideology should not colour your answer.

So you have let the IRA off the hook again!

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

So you have let the IRA off the hook again!

As an organisation they were not involved in this attack. If thats 'letting them off the hook' for something they did not do, well, yes.

You really have not grasped what the rest of us are discussing, have you?

LordSutch

You are despirately trying to absolve the IRA from deliberately killing Civilians, and I am fighting back by saying that YES of course the IRA deliberately set out to murder Civilians ~ and they did on numerous occassions!

If you absolve the IRA from deliberately murdering Civilians, then ergo you give credence to 'Their War' as a legitimate war against the security forces with Civilian casualties, and I will not permit you to go there ....

Irlbo

Camelot wrote: »

So you have let the IRA off the hook again!

Yes republicans were involved at some level for Enniskillen,but republicans areant going to apoligise for every action they carry out,thats not their agenda,its the Brits who should apoligise for creating this situation

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

You are despirately trying to absolve the IRA from deliberately killing Civilians, and I am fighting back by saying that YES of course the IRA deliberately set out to murder Civilians ~ and they did on numerous occassions!

No I am not, please stop putting words in my mouth. Kingsmill was not an IRA operation and I believe Enniskillen to have been a botched operation with horrendious consequences.

As for absolving people, your polemic on the RUC and British Army is the closest this thread has gotten to apologism.

Camelot wrote: »

If you absolve the IRA from deliberately murdering Civilians, then ergo you give credence to 'Their War' as a legitimate war against the security forces with Civilian casualties, and I will not permit you to go there ....

Why not? Its my opinion. Are you not permitting opinions you disagree with? I didn't know you were a mod. Probably one for another thread though.

LordSutch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No I am not, please stop putting words in my mouth. Kingsmill was not an IRA operation and I believe Enniskillen to have been a botched operation with horrendious consequences.

So then, Enniskillen was botched, and Kingsmill was not an IRA operation :cool:

What about Bloody Friday?
What about Birmingham?
What about Darkley?
What about Shankill?

To name but four other IRA Atrocities, or were they also botched mistakes?

FTA69

Camelot wrote: »

The Provisional IRA deliberately targeted the Civilian population of Enniskillen (1987).

Why? Enniskillen did untold damage to the Republican Movement in terms of publicity, support etc, what had they possibly to gain by what happened? Nobody is denying that the people who were killed that day were innocent civilians, what we're saying is that the bomb was directed at the UDR guard.

Your notion of people plotting to murder as many innocent kids as possible is simply not borne out in reality.

What about Bloody Friday?
What about Birmingham?
What about Darkley?
What about Shankill?

Darkley had nothing to do with the IRA at all. As for the other ones, yes they were botched. If you'll recall correctly the Volunteer who planted the Shankill bomb blew himself up, I think that's a fairly clear indication of the botched nature of it. At the end of the day we can sit here all day debating the nuances of various operations, but it isn't going to accomplish much.

You seem to be holding to this idea that the IRA simply wanted to kill innocent people for the sake of doing so, for some reason, possibly to suit your biased, black and white view you need to believe they were some sort of breed of super-monsters bent on destruction. The fact is that what happened here in Ireland was a low-level, grinding, dirty and protracted war that took place over 25 years. Of course awful and horrible instances occurred over that period, the same will happen in any conflict.

Irlbo

Camelot wrote: »

So then, Enniskillen was botched, and Kingsmill was not an IRA operation :cool:

What about Bloody Friday?
What about Birmingham?
What about Darkley?
What about Shankill?

To name but four other IRA Atrocities, or were they also botched mistakes?

War is War,people die in war,to mount an armed campaign and except no innoncent civilains to perish is naive,but in general the IRA bombing campaigns proved them very successful,it got the Brits to the negociating table

LordSutch

Well thats that then, the IRA did not go out to kill innocent civilians, and when they did it was either a mistake, or a botched operation that had not been authorised by the IRA chain of command :rolleyes:

Civilians murdered by the IRA were casualties of a War against the Police and the Army, the IRA fought a clean & calculated campaign against the Imperial oppressors of the catholic people of the Six County Statelet :cool:

The IRA's war was a legitimate War against the 'Evil British' with a few Civilian casualties, but at no time did the IRA ever consider even hurting a civilian

Irlbo

Camelot wrote: »

Well thats that then, the IRA did not go out to kill innocent civilians, and when they did it was either a mistake, or a botched operation that had not been authorised by the IRA chain of command :rolleyes:

Civilians murdered by the IRA were casualties of a War against the Police and the Army, the IRA fought a clean & calculated campaign against the Imperial oppressors of the catholic people of the Six County Statelet :cool:

The IRA's war was a legitimate War against the 'Evil British' with a few Civilian casualties, but at no time did the IRA ever consider even hurting a civilian

You've got it in one my friend