Civilian targets

Fratton Fred

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes, very much so. But that does not mean they set out to do so.

they fired shots into a crowded bar with the intention of missing everyone, or threw a bomb into a restaurent fully expceting no one to be killed?

it is pure luck no one died, that is all and these guys knew what they were doing.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so they did target civilians. They were trying to terrorise the general public by targetting them with bombs.

They put bombs in pubs, in shops, in railway stations. How is that not targetting civilians? At le Mons they tried their hardest to kill as many civilians as was possible.

Economic targets, fair enough, you could even argue that Harrods at Christmas was an economic target but Argos in Warrington? A rememberance parade in Eniskillen?

I agree, I think €100 to santa Strike force is the best place for the donation.

I agree in general but I think le Mon wasn't intended. It just wan't their style and its one occasion where I believe they meant to do structural damage only but failed to get a warning in.

Don't get me wrong. I think had they were caught they should have been given life for it, but I honestly don't think they meant it to turn out the way it did.

Armin_Tamzarian

Fratton Fred wrote: »

blurred where and how? if you want to terrorise someone, you have to target them. the threat of death has to be there otherwise no one is going to get scared.

You don't have to 'target' someone to terrorise them.
A bomb in Birmigham may well terrorise people all over Britain without them ever actually being targetted.

The 'threat of death' and the 'intention to kill' are two very different things.

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

Yes, of course the IRA deliberately murdered civillians. just remember how many Bombs the IRA planted in Cars, Pubs, Resteraunts, Busses & Bars in Northern Ireland + all the other civillians thay murdered in Britain, not forgetting the campaign they waged against 'their own' civillians in the form of Knee Cappings, Torture, Punishment beatings, & execution for those wee Republican lads & lassies who stepped out of line . .

The IRA avoided 'Full On' engagement with the Army because they knew that they would have been anialiated within days, hence the drip-drip feed of Murders in all their various forms, Car Bombs, Bus Bombs, Shootings, Pub Bombs etc etc .............

Civilians were expendable in the eyes of the Provo's, and some of their victims have never been found.

What examples to you have of the IRA 'deliberately killing civilians.
They recklessly endagered the lives of civilians and their actions
directly caused the deaths of civilians but I'm not sure about deliberately killing them.

Killing / wounding people that the IRA believed had 'stepped out of line' is very different to killing innocent civilians.
They were engaged in terrorist warfare so obviously people are going to get hurt.
Whether the victim was innocent or guilty, killing someone who you believe is an enemy, i.e. informers, etc is very different from just targeting random, innocent civilians for death.

Of course the IRA avoided 'Full On' engagement with the Army, that's why it's called guerilla warfare, although there are incidents of them engaging 'full on' .

FTA69

Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »

What examples to you have of the IRA 'deliberately killing civilians.

Kingsmills. Although to be fair that was an isolated incident as opposed to the campaign itself being directed against civilian targets.

OhNoYouDidn't

FTA69 wrote: »

Kingsmills. Although to be fair that was an isolated incident as opposed to the campaign itself being directed against civilian targets.

Kingsmill wasn't even the IRA.....

LordSutch

There is NO DOUBT that the Provisional IRA deliberately Murdered innocent people!

The catalogue of deaths in Northern Ireland is very transparent for all to see, as to who killed who in the Troubles, but I am getting the distinct impression from this Thread that some posters are pretending (in hindsight) that the IRA didn't deliberately Murder Civilians :mad:

This is cause for concern.

Bottle_of_Smoke

FTA69 wrote: »

What an absolute load of bullsh*t. The UVF was formed in 1965 and was killing Catholic civilians a good three years before the Provisional IRA was even founded, the first cop to die during the war was killed by rioting Loyalists. The Ulster Defense Association was founded during the riots in 1970and remained legal until 1992 despite it carrying out hundreds of random, sectarian murders.

Paramilitary Loyalism has existed before modern Republicanism itself, the first being the Peep O'Day boys; later we had the Ulster Volunteer Force and the quasi-military B-Specials. For you to insinuate that it was the Provos who somehow created murderous aspects of sectarian Loyalism is to deny history itself.

The notion that the IRA is to blame for butchers like Lenny Murphy semi-decapitating people at random is ludicrous. Instead of blaming the reactionary bigotry that lies at the heart of Loyalism you decide to absolve sectarian murderers and blame Republicans. I have to say yours is the most ridiculous argument I have ever encountered on this forum.

Absolve? will you come off it, I said their formation isn't surprising, that's not condoning them. Such a pathetic tactic to twist words & mention the worst loyalist attrocities to make a point.

Vast majority of their killings happened during the times the Provos were in action. And the pre-provo groups had been in action for decades which undoubtedly had a major part in providing the motivation for UVF/UDA formation/membership. Hasn't been many Loyalist attacks on Catholics in recent years now has there? Wonder why that is:rolleyes: The Shankhill Butchers killings as you mentioned certainly didn't happen before the PIRA

As I said, I'm not defending them, I'm just not surprised they came about given the acts of the IRA.

FTA69

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Kingsmill wasn't even the IRA.....

Oh right, it was the South Armagh Catholic Reaction Force; a completely autonomous and independent group whose members consisted of completely unaffiliated indivudals. Although one has to ask the question, how does a micro-group of South Armagh farmers acquire American AR-15 assault rifles.

I don't believe it was the Army proper who was behind it, but to deny IRA members were involved is a bit far fetched. Either way it was a shameful episode.

FTA69

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Absolve? will you come off it, I said their formation isn't surprising, that's not condoning them. Such a pathetic tactic to twist words & mention the worst loyalist attrocities to make a point.

Nonsense. You said you blame the IRA for the formation of these groups despite the fact the UVF was killing people for a good 3 years before the Provos even existed. I don't have to twist anything, as your obvious lack of understanding on the topic at hand is all to evident. It's such a lazy argument to blame the IRA for manifestations of racist Loyalism which have existed since they were first planted here.

And the pre-provo groups had been in action for decades which undoubtedly had a major part in providing the motivation for UVF/UDA formation/membership.

No they weren't, not since the 50s anyway. The IRA by the late 60s was a spent force and wasn't a threat to anyone, in fact they were completely inactive in a military sense. The formation of the UVF and the UDA were simply recent phases in Loyalist militarism which spread back centuries and were motivated out of a siege mentality and the need to keep the Taigs in the box.

Hasn't been many Loyalist attacks on Catholics in recent years now has there? Wonder why that is:rolleyes:

Not half. Sure wasn't a 15 year old boy stabbed to death in Ballymena by known members of the UVF no more than a year ago? The people of Short Strand were subjected to a continuous barrage of bullets, pipe-bombs etc for months during the summer of 2002. There have also been ongoing campaigns in Stoneyford as well as Ligoneil. Up until a year ago Loyalist paramilitaries (when not killing each other over drugs) were invovled in sectarian attacks in a number of areas.

The Shankhill Butchers killings as you mentioned certainly didn't happen before the PIRA

No, but apparently you're "pointing the finger at the PIRA" because a shower of twisted psychopaths decided to slice up innocent people with butcher knives.

As I said, I'm not defending them, I'm just not surprised they came about given the acts of the IRA.

Yeah, and they came about before the IRA in its current formation even existed. Basically you're blaming the worst excesses of Loyalism on the IRA which is wholly innaccurate.

Bottle_of_Smoke

FTA69 wrote: »

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Nonsense. You said you blame the IRA for the formation of these groups despite the fact the UVF was killing people for a good 3 years before the Provos even existed. I don't have to twist anything, as your obvious lack of understanding on the topic at hand is all to evident. It's such a lazy argument to blame the IRA for manifestations of racist Loyalism which have existed since they were first planted here.



No they weren't, not since the 50s anyway. The IRA by the late 60s was a spent force and wasn't a threat to anyone, in fact they were completely inactive in a military sense. The formation of the UVF and the UDA were simply recent phases in Loyalist militarism which spread back centuries and were motivated out of a siege mentality and the need to keep the Taigs in the box.



Not half. Sure wasn't a 15 year old boy stabbed to death in Ballymena by known members of the UVF no more than a year ago? The people of Short Strand were subjected to a continuous barrage of bullets, pipe-bombs etc for months during the summer of 2002. There have also been ongoing campaigns in Stoneyford as well as Ligoneil. Up until a year ago Loyalist paramilitaries (when not killing each other over drugs) were invovled in sectarian attacks in a number of areas.


No, but apparently you're "pointing the finger at the PIRA" because a shower of twisted psychopaths decided to slice up innocent people with butcher knives.

Yeah, and they came about before the IRA in its current formation even existed. Basically you're blaming the worst excesses of Loyalism on the IRA which is wholly innaccurate.

Read the posts again. There's no point in me arguing further, you'll just put further quotes of your own in my mouth. I'll give you an analogy. If someone says the IRA came about and were successful because of the treatment of Catholics in Northern Ireland by the Unionist society it doesn't mean they condone acts of terrorism by the IRA.

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

There is NO DOUBT that the Provisional IRA deliberately Murdered innocent people!

The catalogue of deaths in Northern Ireland is very transparent for all to see, as to who killed who in the Troubles, but I am getting the distinct impression from this Thread that some posters are pretending (in hindsight) that the IRA didn't deliberately Murder Civilians :mad:

This is cause for concern.

If its so transparent, no doubt you can share with us what these atrocities were.

No-one here has defended or condoned what the PIRA did in showing disregard for civilian life on occasion, but there has yet to be one event listed in the tens of thousands of bombs they planted that can be pointed at as a deliberate attempt to kill English civilians with a bomb, which will win the charity of your choice €100.

OhNoYouDidn't

FTA69 wrote: »

Oh right, it was the South Armagh Catholic Reaction Force; a completely autonomous and independent group whose members consisted of completely unaffiliated indivudals. Although one has to ask the question, how does a micro-group of South Armagh farmers acquire American AR-15 assault rifles.

I don't believe it was the Army proper who was behind it, but to deny IRA members were involved is a bit far fetched. Either way it was a shameful episode.

which goes back to my point that the Army Council would not have sanctioned such attacks.....

LordSutch

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If its so transparent, no doubt you can share with us what these atrocities were.

I really dont believe that you dont know what the IRA did :cool:

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No-one here has defended or condoned what the PIRA did in showing disregard for civilian life on occasion, but there has yet to be one event listed in the tens of thousands of bombs they planted that can be pointed at as a deliberate attempt to kill English civilians with a bomb, which will win the charity of your choice €100.

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

TOMASJ

Originally Posted by OhNoYouDidn't
No-one here has defended or condoned what the PIRA did in showing disregard for civilian life on occasion, but there has yet to be one event listed in the tens of thousands of bombs they planted that can be pointed at as a deliberate attempt to kill English civilians with a bomb, which will win the charity of your choice €100.

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

Im aware of quite a few occasions when loyalists/british army deliberately targeted and killed civilians but am not aware of same by the IRA,

open to correction if you can provide evidence where they did.

Sand

Im aware of quite a few occasions when loyalists/british army deliberately targeted and killed civilians but am not aware of same by the IRA,

Of course youre not.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own ... but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them

OhNoYouDidn't

Sand wrote: »

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own ... but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

Here were are on page 7 and no-one has yet listed one of these alledged attempts to kill civilians.

Camelot wrote: »

I really dont believe that you dont know what the IRA did :cool:

Fully aware.

Camelot wrote: »

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

Again, we are not discussing atrocities. We are discussing whether the PIRA deliberatly targetted civilians.

I repeat, page 7 and not one listed.

TOMASJ

Sand wrote: »

Of course youre not.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own ... but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them [/quote

Why don't you enlighten everyone then, refute that remarkable capacity for not hearing about IRA atrocities,

Armin_Tamzarian

FTA69 wrote: »

Kingsmills. Although to be fair that was an isolated incident as opposed to the campaign itself being directed against civilian targets.

Hi, I spoke about Kingsmilll in a previous post on page 3.
IMO one of the worst attacks perpetrated by Republicans during the troubles, mainly because only the Protestant workers were killed and the Catholics were allowed to live.
Blatant sectarianism at it's worst.

However I still believe a distinction should be made.
Republicans viewed anyone who was assisting the British security forces as being a collaborator and thus an enemy.
This would include informers and civilians who worked at army bases / RUC stations.
So if you folllow the IRA mindset then, the victims weren't innocent civilians like those killed at Warrington etc. but they were enemy collaborators.

Regarding the identities of the culprits, I don't think it's ever been established who they were for sure.
I'd be of the opinion though that the group mainly consisted of PIRA members, operating under a name of convenience.

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

There is NO DOUBT that the Provisional IRA deliberately Murdered innocent people!

The catalogue of deaths in Northern Ireland is very transparent for all to see, as to who killed who in the Troubles, but I am getting the distinct impression from this Thread that some posters are pretending (in hindsight) that the IRA didn't deliberately Murder Civilians :mad:

This is cause for concern.

I for one have the opinion that you disagree with and I'm certainly not pretending about anything.
I'm sure there are exceptions, as there are to most rules,
but I still hold by my view that the IRA didn't deliberately murder innocent civilians.
I'd imagine that cases of IRA members murdering people solely because they were, say, Protestant were down to the actions of individuals as opposed to overall strategy.

Any examples that you can produce of the IRA deliberately murdering
civilians would be appreciated and would add to the discussion.

Armin_Tamzarian

FTA69 wrote: »

Although one has to ask the question, how does a micro-group of South Armagh farmers acquire American AR-15 assault rifles.

Now that's a good point...

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

Does it matter weather the victims were English Civilians, Irish Civilians or any other?

If you are not aware of the litany of IRA Atrocities, then what can I say

Some specific examples would really help to illustrate your point.

LordSutch

The Enniskillen Remembrance Day Massacre

Just before 11.00am on 8th November 1987 a Provisional IRA bomb exploded without warning as people gathered at the war memorial in Enniskillen for the annual Remembrance Day service. Eleven people were killed and 63 injured, nine of them seriously, when the three-story gable wall of St Michael's Reading Rooms crashed down burying people in several feet of rubble.
The Provisional IRA admitted responsibility the following day.

Many of those killed and injured in the blast had come to honour soldiers killed in action. Amateur video footage of the immediate aftermath horrified people in both communities and around the World, the bombing was condemned on all sides.

The "Poppy day massacre victims are as follows:

William Mullen 72 yrs, married with children and retired (Civilian)
Angus Mullen 70 yrs married (Civilian)
Kitchener Johnson 70 yrs married murdered with his wife Jessie (Civilian)
Wesley Armstrong 62 yrs married murdered with his wife Bertha (Civilian)
John Megaw 68yrs (Civilian)
Edward Armstrong 52 yrs member of the 'Chosen Few' Orange Lodge and a member of the RUCR
Georgina Quinton 72 yrs widow with four children. (Civilian)
Marie Wilson 20 yrs single and was a nurse (Civilian)
Samuel Gault 49 yrs (Civilian)

All of the dead were Protestants and civilains apart from one man who was a member of the Reserve RUC.

As these people and others stood waiting to remember the dead of the Two World Wars and other past and present conflicts in the World. The Provisional IRA/Sinn Fein detonated a bomb with no warning being given. This time the IRA/Sinn Fein had murdered Protestants engaged in a solemn act of remembrance and reaffirmation of their heritage. This heinous act was done while the town of Enniskillen prepared to remembered their kith and kin who died and were injured in past wars and the present 'Troubles' in Northern Ireland. This IRA/Sinn Fein bomb containing 40 IB of gelignite was hidden in a community hall just behind where the victims stood to commemorate their dead and all others throughout the World.

Enniskillen 1987 + One IRA Atrocity = 11 murdered, 63 injured.

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

Enniskillen 1987 + One IRA Atrocity = 11 murdered, 63 injured.

Yes Camelot that was a tragic day,and eight civilians were killed but the target on that day was members of the RUC who usually stood beside that wall the bomb was planted behind,
It was said at the time by republican sources that a british army electronic device was responsably for detonating that bomb, it was of a type the british army used to explode IRA bombs previousally killing IRA members in the process of moving and planting bombs.

LordSutch

The above :rolleyes: is exactly why I hesitated to start listing IRA Atrocities, because for every IRA Atrocity there will be an excuse from IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters, I could start listing all the other IRA murders over the 35 year duration of the Troubles, but somehow it seems pointless in this company.

"The litany of IRA murders are wldely available on the internet for all to see"

OhNoYouDidn't

Camelot wrote: »

The above :rolleyes: is exactly why I hesitated to start listing IRA Atrocities, because for every IRA Atrocity there will be an excuse from IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters, I could start listing all the other IRA murders over the 35 year duration of the Troubles, but somehow it seems pointless in this company.

"The litany of IRA murders are wldely available on the internet for all to see"

Camelot, with the greatest of respect, its fundamentally rude to call people "IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters" when you clearly have not taken the time to read the thread and understand what the actual topic at hand is.

LordSutch

This Thread is called 'Civilian targets' 10 of which were murdered by the IRA in Enniskillen!

And with the greatest of respect to you > A Bomb was planted and detonated by the provisional IRA, whereupon TEN Civilians were murdered & sixty three injured while attending a Remembrance Day Service !

The lowest of the low > planting a Bomb at a Remembrance Day Service :mad:

TOMASJ

Camelot wrote: »

The above :rolleyes: is exactly why I hesitated to start listing IRA Atrocities, because for every IRA Atrocity there will be an excuse from IRA sympathisers/ Sinn Fein Supporters, I could start listing all the other IRA murders over the 35 year duration of the Troubles, but somehow it seems pointless in this company.

"The litany of IRA murders are wldely available on the internet for all to see"

Camelot, as you say yes there are lists available of people killed by the IRA, and lists of killings carried out by the british army and others involved in the past troubles, but the question was, did the IRA target civilians deliberately, and your post about the Enniskillen killings does not prove that it those killings, awful as they were, they were not carried out deliberately

LordSutch

Of course the murders were deliberate, what else could they be > for God's sake man, a Bomb was planted at a Remembrance Day Service by the Cenotaph in Enniskillen, the place was packed with civilians singing Hymn's & remembering the war dead :mad:

Armin_Tamzarian

Camelot wrote: »

Of course the murders were deliberate, what else could they be > for God's sake man, a Bomb was planted at a Remembrance Day Service by the Cenotaph in Enniskillen, the place was packed with civilians singing Hymn's & remembering the war dead :mad:

The bombing was deliberate but the same can't be said in all certaintly about the intention to kill innocent civilians.
As another poster stated, it is believed that the IRA were targeting members of the security forces, UDR I believe.

I do take on board what you are saying though.
It is possible that the intention was just to kill indiscriminatrely.
That the perpatrators felt that it was ok to kill anyone who was there as they were attending a poppy laying ceremony.

Personally, I really don't think that's the case.
The fact that all eleven victims were innocent civilians strengthens the
case that something went wrong.
The place was full of soldiers / RUC, obviously the IRA would have aimed
to kill them before any civilians.

I dug up a quote which also strengthens my argument and actually
strengthens the entire argument that the IRA didn't intentionally target innocent civilians.

The quote is from a man named Norman Baxter, he was a Detective Chief Superintendent who was charged with invesigating the Enniskillen bombing.

Here's what his opinion is,
"The civilians were collateral to the bomb but they were prepared to
accept the number of casualties."

Sounds very similar to what myself and others have been saying in this thread.