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Civilian targets

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12357…11

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    #122
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Lucky I dont give up easily > you just cannot just brush aside those murders like they meant nothing, and then make excuses for what the IRA did, there is no bloody excuse for what happened that day, or any other day that the IRA decided to plant Bombs which would kill & maim Men Women & Children.

    I for one will Not let the IRA off the Hook (Zero excuses) :mad:

    Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............


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    #123
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »
    However I still believe a distinction should be made.
    Republicans viewed anyone who was assisting the British security forces as being a collaborator and thus an enemy.
    This would include informers and civilians who worked at army bases / RUC stations.
    So if you folllow the IRA mindset then, the victims weren't innocent civilians like those killed at Warrington etc. but they were enemy collaborators.

    The people killed at Kingsmills were ordinary workers in a nearby linen factory, you're thinking of Teebane in Tyrone where workers repairing a British Army base were killed in 1992 I believe. There is a distinction between the two.

    Kingsmills occurred during the first IRA ceasefire which lasted 11 months. During this ceasefire Loyalists went on an unprecedented killing spree and they wiped out two local families in South Armagh in two savage home invasions. The group of Loyalists responsible also perpetrated the Miami Showband massacre and it consisted of UVF/UDR members, aided by elements in British intelligence, specifically the soon-to-be-deceased Robert Nairac. My guess is that South Armagh being South Armagh were not going to tolerate this in their own backyard and individual members of that brigade decided to send a message, it worked, and no more civilians were killed by Loyalists in South Armagh. This however, is not a justification for what happened. It was a disgusting example of sectarianism which runs contrary to Republicanism and in my opinion is the biggest stain on the IRA's record.

    Camelot,

    Whether you care to admit it or not the Enniskillen bomb was planted with a view to targetting the UDR guard of honour at the ceremony. It was indeed a callous act, and what happened there was in no uncertain terms, wrong. However to suggest that they set out to kill as many civilians as possible is incorrect. Enniskillen was one of the biggest ever disasters for the IRA, what had they to gain by targetting civilians?


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    #124
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Camelot wrote: »
    Of course the murders were deliberate, what else could they be > for God's sake man, a Bomb was planted at a Remembrance Day Service by the Cenotaph in Enniskillen, the place was packed with civilians singing Hymn's & remembering the war dead :mad:
    If you want to portray deliberate killings of civilians, can you give a comparison to for instance Greystee,l Loughin Island, Pointspass, Grahams bookie, to name a few,in all of these cases no IRA were targeted just inocent people.


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    #125
    Armin_Tamzarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    Camelot wrote: »
    Lucky I dont give up easily > you just cannot just brush aside those murders like they meant nothing, and then make excuses for what the IRA did, there is no bloody excuse for what happened that day, or any other day that the IRA decided to plant Bombs which would kill & maim Men Women & Children.

    I for one will Not let the IRA off the Hook (Zero excuses) :mad:

    Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............

    I really think that you should go back and read the first post in the thread.
    We're not trying to brush anything aside or excuse the deaths of all these innocent people.

    We're simply debating whether the intention was to kill innocent civilians or not.


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    #126
    Armin_Tamzarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    FTA69 wrote: »
    The people killed at Kingsmills were ordinary workers in a nearby linen factory, you're thinking of Teebane in Tyrone where workers repairing a British Army base were killed in 1992 I believe. There is a distinction between the two.

    Kingsmills occurred during the first IRA ceasefire which lasted 11 months. During this ceasefire Loyalists went on an unprecedented killing spree and they wiped out two local families in South Armagh in two savage home invasions. The group of Loyalists responsible also perpetrated the Miami Showband massacre and it consisted of UVF/UDR members, aided by elements in British intelligence, specifically the soon-to-be-deceased Robert Nairac. My guess is that South Armagh being South Armagh were not going to tolerate this in their own backyard and individual members of that brigade decided to send a message, it worked, and no more civilians were killed by Loyalists in South Armagh. This however, is not a justification for what happened. It was a disgusting example of sectarianism which runs contrary to Republicanism and in my opinion is the biggest stain on the IRA's record.

    FTA69 you are completley correct.
    I apologise I always fudge the details of those two incidents.

    I agree comlpetely, Kingsmill was completely abhorrent and utterly indefensible.

    It was a horrible and isolated example of the IRA sinking to the depths of Loyalist death squads.

    Thanks for the clarification.


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    #127
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Camelot wrote: »
    Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............
    Have you ever bothered to investigate who the Army & Police were protecting, just ask the family of Rose Mallon a old lady from Dungannon Co Tyrone how well they protected her , the actually video recorded the woman being shot dead by their murder squads and at no time intervened,


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    #128
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Camelot wrote: »
    Lucky I dont give up easily > you just cannot just brush aside those murders like they meant nothing, and then make excuses for what the IRA did, there is no bloody excuse for what happened that day, or any other day that the IRA decided to plant Bombs which would kill & maim Men Women & Children.

    WHO IS MAKING EXCUSES? You need to calm down and read the first post and re-engage in the thread when you have figured out what is actually being debated.
    Camelot wrote: »
    Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags .............

    Now who is making excuses? If you are still going to claim that the RUC and British military were honest decent neutrals caught up in the middle of a war, you are the one with the agenda.


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    #129
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »
    FTA69 you are completley correct.
    I apologise I always fudge the details of those two incidents.

    I agree comlpetely, Kingsmill was completely abhorrent and utterly indefensible.

    It was a horrible and isolated example of the IRA sinkings to the depths of Loyalist death squads.

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Tut tut tut. It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack.


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    #130
    Armin_Tamzarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Tut tut tut. It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack.

    As I said in a previous post, I don't think it's ever been ascertained who exactly ordered and carried out this atrocity.
    I would concur with you though and think that it was IRA members operating under a name of convenience and operating of their own accord.
    I don't believe it was sanctioned by higher command.


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    #131
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    In the last three posts you guys have exonerated the IRA for 'Kingsmill' as well as Enniskillen :cool:

    So now, lets get this straight, Enniskillen was the fault of the Army who deliberately detonated the Bomb themselves (Post 115), and Kingsmill was not sanctioned from the Top, so thats two Atrocities the IRA were not responsible for (according to some apologetic posters here).

    Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.


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    #132
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    If you want to portray deliberate killings of civilians, can you give a comparison to for instance Greystee,l Loughin Island, Pointspass, Grahams bookie, to name a few,in all of these cases no IRA were targeted just inocent people.

    Whataboutery is a waste of time.


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    #133
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    Camelot wrote: »

    Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

    That's true but the question was about civillian targets rather than collateral damage.


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    #134
    Irlbo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    The IRA was and is as Ive stated before a Guerilla army,and they dont use tactics or actions that a regular army would use,they are not stone cold killers whose interest is to kill people,they just use covert gurilla methods through a cell system,executions,bombings,kidnappings are a dirty business but this was the only way the IRA could have fought the war they needed to wage against Britain,the IRA's targets are anything with British interest,and while targetting these interests,innocent people have died,its unfortunate but they blame lays at Britains door,if they want to forcibly occupy this country and oppress our people(we had internment,state sponsered murder,sectarian gerrymandering to prove this) then you will have an organised movement that will retaliate and strive for freedom and justice,the innocent civillains who have died due to republican actions deserve justice I will admit,but its not as simple as to say they were murdered,it is part of a much wider more complex issue,they are undoubtably casualities of war


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    #135
    Armin_Tamzarian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,833 ✭✭✭✭Armin_Tamzarian


    Camelot wrote: »
    In the last three posts you guys have exonerated the IRA for 'Kingsmill' as well as Enniskillen :cool:

    So now, lets get this straight, Enniskillen was the fault of the Army who deliberately detonated the Bomb themselves (Post 115), and Kingsmill was not sanctioned from the Top, so thats two Atrocities the IRA were not responsible for (according to some apologetic posters here).

    Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

    May I suggest, one more time, that you go back to the beginning of the thread and read in in it's entirity, very slowly perhaps.
    Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

    Several people have made excellent posts, backed up with examples etc.

    You on the other hand make comments such as,
    "Come to think of it, I condem the IRA for Army & Police murders too, why should we concentrate on Civilian Murders, when the very people who were protecting civilians were also killed by those scum bags ............. "

    All you're doing is engaging in clichéd, anti-republican rhetoric.
    You continue to make the same tired old statements without backing any of them up.
    Also, the reason we are concentrating on civilian deaths is because that's the purpose of the thread.
    Perhaps you'd be better starting a new thread of your own.
    You could title it, "The IRA are murdering scum, fo you agree?"

    Who exactly exonerated the IRA for Kingsmill and Enniskillen?
    Was it words such as abhorrent and utterly indefensible that suggested that I thought it was ok for the IRA to carry out these acts.

    Or perhaps it was statements such as "it was a disgusting example of sectarianism".

    I may have expressed a belief that the Kingsmill massacre wasn't sanctioned by the IRA's upper leadership but I also stated that I believed that it was carried out by members of the IRA.


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    #136
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Armin_Tamzarian wrote: »
    May I suggest, one more time, that you go back to the beginning of the thread and read in in it's entirity, very slowly perhaps.
    Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

    Seeing as you are intent on passing the buck, may I suggest that you go back to Post #114 and read it very very slowly (very slowly), taking in the names & ages of the Civilian victims, think about the occasion, think about the scene that day, and then THINK about what was done by the IRA to the Civilians of that Town > slowly.

    Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.


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    #137
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Camelot wrote: »
    In the last three posts you guys have exonerated the IRA for 'Kingsmill' as well as Enniskillen :cool:

    Who has exonerated anyone for anything? People have been quite clear in their condemnation of both these attacks. The fact you are deliberatly ignoring that and putting words in their mouths says a great deal more about you than them.

    The debate is whether the IRA deliberatly targetted civilians in their campaign as opposed to collateral damage / lack of care in targetting.

    Kingsmill was deliberatly done outside of the chain of command because even the leadership of that time would have opposed it and the local bigots knew it and Enniskillen was targetting the sectarian UDR who were due to be at the spot later. Why the bomb went off early is open to debate. Rumour has it McGuinness personally led the investigation into the locals.
    Camelot wrote: »
    Personally speaking, I say that the victims of the Enniskillen Bomb were innocent Civilians.

    I would disagree about the RUC man, but thats incidental.


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    #138
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Camelot wrote: »
    Seeing as you are intent on passing the buck, may I suggest that you go back to Post #114 and read it very very slowly (very slowly), taking in the names & ages of the Civilian victims, think about the occasion, think about the scene that day, and then THINK about what was done by the IRA to the Civilians of that Town > slowly.

    Then, maybe, you'll take on board the points that are actually being discussed here.

    One last time. Do you think that the IRA targetted the UDR and made a balls of it, or that they targetted the local Protestant population and the mission was a 'success'?


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    #139
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The Provisional IRA deliberately targeted the Civilian population of Enniskillen (1987).

    By the way 'OhNoYouDidn't' you did indeed absolve the IRA in Post 126 by saying that "It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack". and by saying this you are allowing the PIRA 'Hirearchy' to keep the moral high ground, which is totally irrelavent anyway, because the 'chain of command' was that of a Terrorist organisation.


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    #140
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Camelot wrote: »
    The Provisional IRA deliberately targeted the Civilian population of Enniskillen (1987).

    See, a straight answer wasn't that hard.

    I disagree, all the evidence seems to point to a botched attempt at the UDR which had appaling consequences.
    Camelot wrote: »
    By the way 'OhNoYouDidn't' you did indeed absolve the IRA in Post 126 by saying that "It was members of the IRA who decided to take action themselves and engage in sectarian barbarism outside of the chain of command knowing full well the PIRA would have prevented them from doing this attack". and by saying this you are allowing the PIRA 'Hirearchy' to keep the moral high ground, which is totally irrelavent anyway, because the 'chain of command' was that of a Terrorist organisation.

    The war is over Camelot, people are moving on, the DUP are in government with SF. What does that sort of bitterness achieve?

    The locals decided to engage in sectarian slaughter and deliberatly kept the IRA out of the loop in the full knowledge that they did not allow that sort of thing. Are you denying that? Your own personal ideology should not colour your answer.


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    #141
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Are we also able to claim the Paras did not target innocent people, it was a few people acting outside the chain of command. That will then make bloody sunday ok and the current enquiry can be ended. Maybe we could claim the armoured car that entered croke park did not target civilians, it just opened fire and sadly some people were killed. How about the hiroshima bomb? Surely the yanks were only bombing a munitions factory and everyone else killed was "collateral damage". If you bomb public areas you are aiming to kill innocent people, the fact you try and make a phone call to a local newspaper may get you a few brownie points from your sympathisers, but at the end of the day, the intention is to kill people.


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    #142
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    The locals decided to engage in sectarian slaughter and deliberatly kept the IRA out of the loop in the full knowledge that they did not allow that sort of thing. Are you denying that? Your own personal ideology should not colour your answer.

    So you have let the IRA off the hook again!


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    #143
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Camelot wrote: »
    So you have let the IRA off the hook again!

    As an organisation they were not involved in this attack. If thats 'letting them off the hook' for something they did not do, well, yes. :confused:

    You really have not grasped what the rest of us are discussing, have you?


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    #144
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    You are despirately trying to absolve the IRA from deliberately killing Civilians, and I am fighting back by saying that YES of course the IRA deliberately set out to murder Civilians ~ and they did on numerous occassions!

    If you absolve the IRA from deliberately murdering Civilians, then ergo you give credence to 'Their War' as a legitimate war against the security forces with Civilian casualties, and I will not permit you to go there ....


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    #145
    Irlbo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    Camelot wrote: »
    So you have let the IRA off the hook again!

    Yes republicans were involved at some level for Enniskillen,but republicans areant going to apoligise for every action they carry out,thats not their agenda,its the Brits who should apoligise for creating this situation


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    #146
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Camelot wrote: »
    You are despirately trying to absolve the IRA from deliberately killing Civilians, and I am fighting back by saying that YES of course the IRA deliberately set out to murder Civilians ~ and they did on numerous occassions!

    No I am not, please stop putting words in my mouth. Kingsmill was not an IRA operation and I believe Enniskillen to have been a botched operation with horrendious consequences.

    As for absolving people, your polemic on the RUC and British Army is the closest this thread has gotten to apologism.
    Camelot wrote: »
    If you absolve the IRA from deliberately murdering Civilians, then ergo you give credence to 'Their War' as a legitimate war against the security forces with Civilian casualties, and I will not permit you to go there ....

    Why not? Its my opinion. Are you not permitting opinions you disagree with? I didn't know you were a mod. Probably one for another thread though.


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    #147
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    No I am not, please stop putting words in my mouth. Kingsmill was not an IRA operation and I believe Enniskillen to have been a botched operation with horrendious consequences.

    So then, Enniskillen was botched, and Kingsmill was not an IRA operation :cool:

    What about Bloody Friday?
    What about Birmingham?
    What about Darkley?
    What about Shankill?

    To name but four other IRA Atrocities, or were they also botched mistakes?


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    #148
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Camelot wrote: »
    The Provisional IRA deliberately targeted the Civilian population of Enniskillen (1987).

    Why? Enniskillen did untold damage to the Republican Movement in terms of publicity, support etc, what had they possibly to gain by what happened? Nobody is denying that the people who were killed that day were innocent civilians, what we're saying is that the bomb was directed at the UDR guard.

    Your notion of people plotting to murder as many innocent kids as possible is simply not borne out in reality.
    What about Bloody Friday?
    What about Birmingham?
    What about Darkley?
    What about Shankill?

    Darkley had nothing to do with the IRA at all. As for the other ones, yes they were botched. If you'll recall correctly the Volunteer who planted the Shankill bomb blew himself up, I think that's a fairly clear indication of the botched nature of it. At the end of the day we can sit here all day debating the nuances of various operations, but it isn't going to accomplish much.

    You seem to be holding to this idea that the IRA simply wanted to kill innocent people for the sake of doing so, for some reason, possibly to suit your biased, black and white view you need to believe they were some sort of breed of super-monsters bent on destruction. The fact is that what happened here in Ireland was a low-level, grinding, dirty and protracted war that took place over 25 years. Of course awful and horrible instances occurred over that period, the same will happen in any conflict.


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    #149
    Irlbo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    Camelot wrote: »
    So then, Enniskillen was botched, and Kingsmill was not an IRA operation :cool:

    What about Bloody Friday?
    What about Birmingham?
    What about Darkley?
    What about Shankill?

    To name but four other IRA Atrocities, or were they also botched mistakes?


    War is War,people die in war,to mount an armed campaign and except no innoncent civilains to perish is naive,but in general the IRA bombing campaigns proved them very successful,it got the Brits to the negociating table


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    #150
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Well thats that then, the IRA did not go out to kill innocent civilians, and when they did it was either a mistake, or a botched operation that had not been authorised by the IRA chain of command :rolleyes:

    Civilians murdered by the IRA were casualties of a War against the Police and the Army, the IRA fought a clean & calculated campaign against the Imperial oppressors of the catholic people of the Six County Statelet :cool:

    The IRA's war was a legitimate War against the 'Evil British' with a few Civilian casualties, but at no time did the IRA ever consider even hurting a civilian ;)


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    #151
    Irlbo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭Irlbo


    Camelot wrote: »
    Well thats that then, the IRA did not go out to kill innocent civilians, and when they did it was either a mistake, or a botched operation that had not been authorised by the IRA chain of command :rolleyes:

    Civilians murdered by the IRA were casualties of a War against the Police and the Army, the IRA fought a clean & calculated campaign against the Imperial oppressors of the catholic people of the Six County Statelet :cool:

    The IRA's war was a legitimate War against the 'Evil British' with a few Civilian casualties, but at no time did the IRA ever consider even hurting a civilian ;)

    You've got it in one my friend


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