Are women attracted to badboys at an unconscience level

01-02-2009 9:32pm

johnathan woss wrote: »

A few years ago everyone was an amateur psychologist, now everyone's an amateur anthropologist or evolutionary biologist :pac:

Or economist, or political theorist.:)

The Corinthian · 02-02-2009 1:15pm

What exactly is a 'bad boy', out of curiosity? I ask, because the definition being presented here is a little fuzzy. Is it a guy who is self-assured? Or socially dangerous (a biker, a musician or some such)? Or a guy who will treat women badly? A womaniser? They're not all necessarily the same thing.

I've also noticed that woman claim to grow out of bad boys. Had you ever considered the possibility that bad boys also evolve, become more sophisticated and really all that you're doing is growing out of the younger, cruder bad boys and going on to the one's who are more subtle about it?

DublinWriter wrote: »

Us middle of the road types will eventually breed you shrinking-violets and alpha-male types right out of the gene-pool.

You! Back to your station at the nutrient replicator!

Dudess · 02-02-2009 1:21pm

Isn't a bad boy a womaniser? If I found him hot, then I'd find him hot. There'd be nothing subconscious or unconscious about it. I wouldn't see him as anything more than a shag though - however much I'd like to change him.

Loomis · 02-02-2009 2:11pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

/Checks this in in tLL

Right.

NICE GUY stuff is Shíte sorry but is it, so fúcking what if you are 'nice' what does that mean ?
That you are not hitting her and trying to score her mate ?

Please grow up ?

GEt a spine.
Get manners.
Get a life.

Don't pander to every fúcked up ego manica who comes your way
no matter what your gender or yours.

It's not being a bad boy it's simpler then that it fortune favoring the bold.

Because nice people don't have manners and bad boys do?
Because nice guys can't have a spine?
Yet you talk about not pigeon-holing bad boys?

Dragan · 02-02-2009 2:15pm

Personally i think women tend to like the rogue type. The guy who doesn't really give a crap what you think of him, has that twinkle in his eye and operates just outside the rules enough to be interesting but not so much as to end up in jail.

In all seriousness, women like men who interest them. "Nice guys" can be boring as ****, it's that simple. The common thread i have seen in all the "nice guy" stuff is simply that they don't let chicks know when they like them, don't really express any interest in the girls they do like and sit around waiting for the girl to fall in love with them.

Sitting on your hands is not impressive, last timei checked.

Wibbs · 02-02-2009 2:26pm

Pretty spot on post, but good luck with calling women "chicks" around here. Hope it works out for you;):D

Dragan wrote: »

"Nice guys" can be boring as ****, it's that simple.

Pretty much spot on. I would say IME most if not damn near all men I've met who self described as nice guys(as if one should have to) were as dull as a very dull thing.

Wibbs · 02-02-2009 2:29pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

What exactly is a 'bad boy', out of curiosity? I ask, because the definition being presented here is a little fuzzy. Is it a guy who is self-assured? Or socially dangerous (a biker, a musician or some such)? Or a guy who will treat women badly? A womaniser? They're not all necessarily the same thing.

I would say no to self assured, though nice guy types will often see that as a bad boy trait. Socially dangerous womanisers and sometimes abusers and controlling types would cover it though.

I've also noticed that woman claim to grow out of bad boys. Had you ever considered the possibility that bad boys also evolve, become more sophisticated and really all that you're doing is growing out of the younger, cruder bad boys and going on to the one's who are more subtle about it?

I would agree with that. I have often found that what is described as maturing is more usually increased skill at hiding a persons issues.

The Corinthian · 02-02-2009 2:40pm

Dragan wrote: »

"Nice guys" can be boring as ****, it's that simple. The common thread i have seen in all the "nice guy" stuff is simply that they don't let chicks know when they like them, don't really express any interest in the girls they do like and sit around waiting for the girl to fall in love with them.

More often than not 'nice guys' are not actually nice. They're boring, self-absorbed, creeps who use the 'nice guy' label to explain why women don't go for them.

Wibbs wrote: »

I would agree with that. I have often found that what is described as maturing is more usually increased skill at hiding a persons issues.

Or agenda.

Loomis · 02-02-2009 2:43pm

Sweeping generalizations thread ftw

Dragan · 02-02-2009 2:44pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say IME most if not damn near all men I've met who self described as nice guys(as if one should have to) were as dull as a very dull thing.

Pretty much. In my social circle there would be 3 guys who consistantly go on about the "bastards" getting the girls. They talk a lot about wanting to go out, yet everytime we ask them to join us in pubs or clubs or at gigs they say yes and mostly no show. When they do show up they never actually try and talk to anyone outside of our own group, least of all girls they have never met before.

I see the same thing recycled by "nice guys" all the time.

The Corinthian · 02-02-2009 2:45pm

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Sweeping generalizations thread ftw

Let me guess - you're a "nice guy".

Wibbs · 02-02-2009 2:57pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

More often than not 'nice guys' are not actually nice. They're boring, self-absorbed, creeps who use the 'nice guy' label to explain why women don't go for them.

I would partially agree. That would be the extreme. I would say for the most part they're more painfully insecure and that comes out at both extremes.

Loomis · 02-02-2009 3:04pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Let me guess - you're a "nice guy".

I'm not a dickhead if that answers your question.
Doesn't change what I said in my last post. Some of the posts here are ridiculous.

Wibbs · 02-02-2009 3:05pm

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Because nice people don't have manners and bad boys do?
Because nice guys can't have a spine?
Yet you talk about not pigeon-holing bad boys?

I would say it's the definition of "nice guys" more than anything. Again IME men who describe themselves as nice guys as a reason why they don't attract women, wear their insecurity on their sleeve. That can come out as just non engagement with women, sometimes bad manners, but the lack of spine would be the biggest part of it. They simply don't value themselves enough.

An actual nice man, values himself, enjoys himself and helps those around him feel good about themselves and is not afraid of rejection or just simply engaging with people, men and women. If he meets a woman he may be interested in he lets her know. He has nothing to lose, because he's not afraid of losing himself in her rejection. He sees it for what it is and he knows deep down he has options. A man approaching a woman and showing his interest is attractive in of itself. A man who approaches a particular woman, out of other choices he may have is very attractive. Goes for men too. If I'm with someone I find attractive, I would expect others would too. This is not a case of oneupmanship either.

Dragan · 02-02-2009 3:08pm

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

I'm not a dickhead if that answers your question.
Doesn't change what I said in my last post. Some of the posts here are ridiculous.

Anything in particular you would care to dispute, or offer your own opinion on, or is this just one of those "you opinion sucks but i couldn't be arsed offering mine" things?:)

Personally i don't think nice guys are dickheads, but i think being a bit of a pussy is one of the traits of being a "nice guy".

if ya get me?

Loomis · 02-02-2009 3:11pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say it's the definition of "nice guys" more than anything. Again IME men who describe themselves as nice guys as a reason why they don't attract women, wear their insecurity on their sleeve. That can come out as just non engagement with women, sometimes bad manners, but the lack of spine would be the biggest part of it. They simply don't value themselves enough.

An actual nice man, values himself, enjoys himself and helps those around him feel good about themselves and is not afraid of rejection or just simply engaging with people, men and women. If he meets a woman he may be interested in he lets her know. He has nothing to lose, because he's not afraid of losing himself in her rejection. He sees it for what it is and he knows deep down he has options. A man approaching a woman and showing his interest is attractive in of itself. A man who approaches a particular woman, out of other choices he may have is very attractive. Goes for men too. If I'm with someone I find attractive, I would expect others would too. This is not a case of oneupmanship either.

Eh, yeah, that's all grand. My point was she can't defend bad boys in one breath telling people not to pigeon hole then and pigeon hole 'nice guys' in the next by saying they have no spine.
I think both terms are ridiculously generalized here by people but for some reason most seem to be defending bad boys saying they get a rough time and just misunderstood but have no problem laying into the nice guy term. it's all just a bit too hypocritical for me. I only got a response because someone assumed I was a disgruntled nice guy reading the thread. Which kinda backs up my points.

K-9 · 02-02-2009 3:12pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Pretty much spot on. I would say IME most if not damn near all men I've met who self described as nice guys(as if one should have to) were as dull as a very dull thing.

YEP, that would be the main reason women aren't attracted to them.

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say no to self assured, though nice guy types will often see that as a bad boy trait. Socially dangerous womanisers and sometimes abusers and controlling types would cover it though.

I would agree with that. I have often found that what is described as maturing is more usually increased skill at hiding a persons issues.

It's the take what I want and do what I want type.

Wibbs wrote: »

An actual nice man, values himself, enjoys himself and helps those around him feel good about themselves and is not afraid of rejection or just simply engaging with people, men and women. If he meets a woman he may be interested in he lets her know. He has nothing to lose, because he's not afraid of losing himself in her rejection. He sees it for what it is and he knows deep down he has options. A man approaching a woman and showing his interest is attractive in of itself. A man who approaches a particular woman, out of other choices he may have is very attractive. Goes for men too. If I'm with someone I find attractive, I would expect others would too. This is not a case of oneupmanship either.

Takes a while to get there!

Loomis · 02-02-2009 3:26pm

Dragan wrote: »

Anything in particular you would care to dispute, or offer your own opinion on, or is this just one of those "you opinion sucks but i couldn't be arsed offering mine" things?:)

Personally i don't think nice guys are dickheads, but i think being a bit of a pussy is one of the traits of being a "nice guy".

if ya get me?

When the only reason she addressed me was based on the assumption I'm a pissed off nice guy then yes I can't be arsed going into more detail with her.
Fair enough?

I think the extreme view of nice guy does contain the element of them being a pussy. But then again I'd think the extreme view of a bad boy is they're a waste of space no job/druggie/woman abuser/prison-bound.
Both views are a bit stupid to me. Since nice guy can just mean a decent fella with manners and chivalry and a bad boy can be someone who smokes to look cool. Again they're simplified and narrow views.
In secondary school the bad boy can just be the fella who mitches class but wouldn't exactly raise any skirts for an older group. A guy who drinks heavily and hits his partner on occasion might be viewed as a pussy by a girl who's used to being treated worse.
Pigeon holing either as a pussy or prison-bound is a bit pointless. But at least it's treating both with equal narrow-mindedness and simplicity. Most posts here though seem very skewed which was my original point. But, like I said, the first response I got was because my second post was assumed to be from a pissed off nice guy.

Malari · 02-02-2009 3:28pm

I have to disagree with the way the consensus is going here. I've known plenty of "nice guys" who I'm not attracted to but who actually are very charismatic people - fun to be with, really make you laugh, lots of common interests...but not attractive for some reason, despite looks.

I actually can't pinpoint what it is, but I don't think you can dismiss it with the boring nice guy idea. Especially since that theme seems to be coming predominantly from guys.

shellyboo · 02-02-2009 3:31pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

More often than not 'nice guys' are not actually nice. They're boring, self-absorbed, creeps who use the 'nice guy' label to explain why women don't go for them.

Or agenda.

Wibbs wrote: »

I would say IME most if not damn near all men I've met who self described as nice guys(as if one should have to) were as dull as a very dull thing.

Dragan wrote: »

The common thread i have seen in all the "nice guy" stuff is simply that they don't let chicks know when they like them, don't really express any interest in the girls they do like and sit around waiting for the girl to fall in love with them.

Sitting on your hands is not impressive, last timei checked.

These are all spot on. What we have here, I think, is a really crap way of defining 'nice guys' and 'bad boys'. No-one wants to be with a guy who treats you like crap and makes you miserable all the time, and no-one wants to be with a snivelling pushover who can't assert himself for fear of upsetting you either.

What we need is a happy medium - confident, self-assured guy (even being a bit cocky doesn't hurt) who knows what he wants, goes after it, and appreciates it when he gets it.

Of course, a side of this helps too:

K-9 wrote: »

It's the take what I want and do what I want type.

Ooh, yes please

Jemmy · 02-02-2009 3:32pm

Can I have a bad boy for a change?!

Dragan · 02-02-2009 3:33pm

Malari wrote: »

I have to disagree with the way the consensus is going here. I've known plenty of "nice guys" who I'm not attracted to but who actually are very charismatic people - fun to be with, really make you laugh, lots of common interests...but not attractive for some reason, despite looks.

I actually can't pinpoint what it is, but I don't think you can dismiss it with the boring nice guy idea. Especially since that theme seems to be coming predominantly from guys.

First of all, for me there is a big difference between being a nice person, and falling into the "nice guy" trap.

Being a nice person means you are basically a nice person who just happens to be male. Your a good mate, a good ear, a good shoulder to cry on and help out others when you can. After that, you can be anything you want.

The "nice guy" label, to me, doesn't mean "nice", it means they have trapped themselves in an endless loop whereby their own inability to express what they mean or actively show interest in girls has just made them bitter.

That, to me, is the "nice guy" thing.

The Corinthian · 02-02-2009 3:38pm

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

I think the extreme view of nice guy does contain the element of them being a pussy. But then again I'd think the extreme view of a bad boy is they're a waste of space no job/druggie/woman abuser/prison-bound.
Both views are a bit stupid to me. Since nice guy can just mean a decent fella with manners and chivalry and a bad boy can be someone who smokes to look cool. Again they're simplified and narrow views.

Which is why I asked for what people mean when they mean a 'bad boy', as it would also, in turn, define a 'nice guy'. It may be a bit stupid, but the stereotypical definitions how people seem to view them.

If it is a question of self confidence, then either can have it in theory. However, if a 'nice guy' is self confident he will rarely need to use the 'nice guy' label as an excuse for why 'bad boys' get the girls - he's probably already in a stable, long term relationship.

To answer the original question (at least my answer), 'bad boys' will instinctively push a woman's 'buttons' to get what they want. 'Nice guys' will not want to use such subterfuge. And the reality is that if you push someone's 'buttons' you'll get a more favourable reaction.

Malari · 02-02-2009 3:40pm

Dragan wrote: »

Being a nice person means you are basically a nice person who just happens to be male. Your a good mate, a good ear, a good shoulder to cry on and help out others when you can. After that, you can be anything you want.

OK, I know a few of these people ^ who don't seem to get the girls. Ever. But I don't know any of these guys below.

Dragan wrote: »

The "nice guy" label, to me, doesn't mean "nice", it means they have trapped themselves in an endless loop whereby their own inability to express what they mean or actively show interest in girls has just made them bitter.

That, to me, is the "nice guy" thing.

In fact, the "nice guys" I've known are able to express themselves, but leave you thinking "I'm sure he'll find a nice girl some day."

The Corinthian · 02-02-2009 3:45pm

shellyboo wrote: »

What we need is a happy medium - confident, self-assured guy (even being a bit cocky doesn't hurt) who knows what he wants, goes after it, and appreciates it when he gets it.

They're all taken by the time you're thirty. All that's left is all us dysfunctional ageing Casanova's and quiet men who keep a jar of Vaseline next to their PC.

Enjoy.

shellyboo · 02-02-2009 3:52pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

They're all taken by the time you're thirty. All that's left is all us dysfunctional ageing Casanova's and quiet men who keep a jar of Vaseline next to their PC.

Enjoy.

Cheers, but I've recently got my grubby little mitts on one of the ones I've just described. All I need to do now is hang onto him for a while. Thanks for the concern though

Dragan · 02-02-2009 3:59pm

Malari wrote: »

In fact, the "nice guys" I've known are able to express themselves, but leave you thinking "I'm sure he'll find a nice girl some day."

Ah yes, but these guys fall out of my own personal definition of the "nice guy", simply because they are trying and able to express their interest.

If you get where i am coming from?

Malari · 02-02-2009 4:02pm

Dragan wrote: »

Ah yes, but these guys fall out of my own personal definition of the "nice guy", simply because they are trying and able to express their interest.

If you get where i am coming from?

I do get where you are coming from

As a previous poster has noted, we need a coupla definitions here!

Nevyn · 02-02-2009 4:07pm

Seriously this piece covers a lot of it.

http://divalion.livejournal.com/163615.html

The Nice Guy usually has some glaringly big issues in his life that he isn't dealing with-- things that make him unhappy, but rather than address them, he is convinced that if only he could be with someone, everything would magically get better. (Yeah, guess what, it doesn't. You still need to get a job/move into a better place/go back to school/get therapy/clean your toejam/tell your parents to piss off/whatever it is.) For a Nice Guy, all the responsibility for his happiness lies with his future partner. And he *will* put the burden on her, as well as guilting the hell out of her if she gets fed up with mommying him.

Nice Guys think it is enough for them to be so nice, so sweet, so attentive. Because it is enough, they think it's ok to let other stuff slide. Like it doesn't matter if they have good hygiene, because a girl who cares so much about exteriors is shallow and hypocritical if she can't see past a layer of funk to the shining prince beneath. They don't think it's important to develop much in the way of social skills or good manners (although some of them do have a certain amount of charisma). They never stop to ask themselves whether the fact that they haven't dated anyone since 1997 might have something to do with their annoying behaviors or poor sense of humor. In fact, they see no reason to make any extra effort to improve themselves or present themselves well at all-- because they're SO VERY NICE.

Conversely, though, most Nice Guys only fall for a fairly limited range of "hot" chicks. It's because women are all about the status for them, and they are out to prove something to the world. Some of them will deliberately only go after women who are fairly unattainable, if their martyr complex needs some care and feeding.

Nice Guys usually are crap at reading body language and nonverbal cues and usually have serious personal space problems. Women get creeped out because they feel like the guy is literally clinging to them, or is coming on really strong really fast, or doesn't seem to pick up on the fact that they're tensing up or moving away. But since the Nice Guy *knows* he has good intentions, he is deeply insulted by the suggestion that his behavior is unwelcome, creepy, or even threatening. (Whereas a genuine nice guy who misreads a situation is horrified that he might have come across that way and apologizes for it.)

Nice Guys are not patient. This is tricky, again, because sometimes they can *seem* very patient, but in reality they are always chomping at the bit to get into their chosen target's pants. And once they've made a move, they are all about the instant gratification. They demand response NOW. They expect and will pressure or guilt a woman into giving them a chance. It's all or nothing, and if she says no, chances are good the friendship is dead in the water. If it continues, it's almost guaranteed that it's because he doesn't believe she means no, and intends to regroup and try again.

Nice Guys don't actually care what a woman wants, which is one of the keys to identifying a Nice Guy vs. a nice guy, and which runs directly counter to their most deeply held beliefs about themselves. They think that they are great, caring, compassionate partners; usually, they just want a captive audience. They don't have much respect for what her desires and preferences are unless they are for him, because if she wants something different than him, it is attributed to her dysfunction and desire to be treated badly by an asshole. They may spend some time with pick-up books and things that tell them how to get chicks, but they tend to follow the letter of the law and not the spirit. That's why he'll serenade you on a subway platform even though he knows you don't like to call attention to yourself, and then be hurt that you were uncomfortable and embarrassed by the display. He likes to make a big show out of being romantic and considerate, especially when others are watching, but he will still forget to pick up his socks even if you've told him you'd rather have a clean floor than roses delivered to your office.

But the real foolproof way to identify a Nice Guy is to watch how he treats a woman who turns him down romantically. A true-blue Nice Guy invariably will unleash the scorn and contempt and resentment that's been seething under the surface all along, and excoriate the woman he claimed to care about. One of the favored maneuvers is to retreat behind sarcasm, claim that whatever she found unwelcome was "just a joke", and defensively inform her that she has no sense of humor, that she's taking everything way too seriously. Once in a while he'll try to keep being friends-- especially if he thinks there's another chance in it for him-- but he'll let fly with the snarky comments about her, the passive-aggressive "humor" that always points back to her rejection of him, and especially so if she shows interest in anyone else. He's just waiting for that romance to fail so that he can say, "see, she rejects ME when I would've treated her right, but runs after that asshole instead, and now she got hurt. I could've told her that would happen!" And you will never hear a Nice Guy say anything gracious about a guy who dates a woman who rejected him.

The most insidious part of it is the way that Nice Guys turn everything back on the girl, make it all her fault. If she doesn't want to date him-- poor, poor him! What sort of shallow bitch must she be to want a relationship but not with him? Coincidentally, this tactic can sometimes score him a sympathy **** if he's got a backup girl to run to.

The absolute key difference between a nice guy and a Nice Guy is that the nice guy truly likes and respects women and doesn't feel entitled to the attentions of any woman. The Nice Guy pretends to be that, but secretly he has decided that all women suck (usually for the sins of a couple of them), and he doesn't really care about anything so much as propping up his limp ego.

I already pigenholed 'bad boys' if you had actually read my posts in this thread then you would see that.

Loomis · 02-02-2009 4:21pm

How bad did that chick get ****ed over? :eek:

Are women attracted to badboys at an unconscience level

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