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No punishment for corruption

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  • 31-01-2009 10:23am
    #1
    Pub07
    Closed Accounts Posts: 532 ✭✭✭


    Have I got this right...Frank Dunlop was a lobbyist who took money from developers to pay off politicians. After the half a billion spent on the tribunal he is the only one looking at some jail time. But if he's corrupt it automatically means some other people are corrupt too to as he wouldn't have been able to do what he did if he wasn't given money by the developer and/or it wasn't taken by the politician? Why aren't these people getting done for it? Frank Dunlop is actually the least culpable out of the three parties in the transaction.


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    #2
    gnxx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭gnxx


    Good point OP.

    My own annoyance is that the CAB don't seize assets resulting from corruption.

    We simply don't treat corruption as a "proper" crime.

    Do you think that we could raise 1Billion by seizing property based on corrupt planning and taking assets from corrupt public officials?

    Look at all the folks who have openly admited they bribed officials. Why aren't they jailed?


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    #3
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    gnxx wrote: »
    Good point OP.

    My own annoyance is that the CAB don't seize assets resulting from corruption.

    We simply don't treat corruption as a "proper" crime.

    Do you think that we could raise 1Billion by seizing property based on corrupt planning and taking assets from corrupt public officials?

    Look at all the folks who have openly admited they bribed officials. Why aren't they jailed?
    These type of people know where there are alot of skeletons buried and they might squeal on others in powerful positions.
    There is huge amounts of corruption going on but we only get to hear about it when for some reason the briber/ reciever falls out.

    Of course you are right they should be jailed but it ain't ever going to happen because then we would get to find out how the business(?)people/bankers/politicians actually manipulate the system for their profit and it would not be in their interests for us to know what they are up to now would it?


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    #4
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    we need to change laws so that people don't benefit from corruption, the risk / reward balance has be shifted back.

    in many cases the fines given have comparable to the interest payments on an overdraft, and since everyone isn't caught it's a financial no-brainer if there is unlikely to be jail time (Liam Lawlor had a nice cushy cell) or affect your job prospects (self employed)

    Employees can't risk jail time or the loss of main residence as it's game over , the people involved in corruption can squirrel away a load of cash and a small house in spain. So they could still retire no matter what.

    There is an old saying "some people have the reputation of being honest when in reality their price is too high"

    you have to assume that a signifigant proportion of politicians / developers / planners could be tempted by financial gain and prepare for it. In Ireland you can't assume that social stigma will reduce it much :(


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    #5
    BroomBurner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭BroomBurner


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    we need to change laws so that people don't benefit from corruption, the risk / reward balance has be shifted back.

    I agree fully. The only problem is those that are making the law are the ones that are making damned sure that those laws let them away with stuff.

    WTF is the point of tribunals these days? All they seem to do is uncover information, but then nothing much is done to the parties involved. And all this BS of not remebering what happened when, surely that's contempt of court?

    Maybe we should bring in the Chinese method of dealing with corruption... ;)


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    #6
    galwayrush
    Registered Users Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Why are people in high places rewarded when they mess up? FAS and the Financial Regulator are two that come to mind. They failed in the job they were appointed to , therefore they should have been sacked, Why should they get multi hundred thousand euro golden handshakes and massive pensions, paid for by the tax payer. We have to do with a little over 200 euros a week after a lifetime of hard work, they get paid massive money for failing. I will never pay any property tax even if it means me going to prison as long as our people in power allow this corruption and waste, because i don't want my hard earned money paying for an incompetent failure to live in luxury.


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    #7
    LoveDucati2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭LoveDucati2


    Pub07 wrote: »
    Have I got this right...Frank Dunlop was a lobbyist who took money from developers to pay off politicians. After the half a billion spent on the tribunal he is the only one looking at some jail time. But if he's corrupt it automatically means some other people are corrupt too to as he wouldn't have been able to do what he did if he wasn't given money by the developer and/or it wasn't taken by the politician? Why aren't these people getting done for it? Frank Dunlop is actually the least culpable out of the three parties in the transaction.

    There will be an issue about this in the future when the corrupt start telling their secrets, hopefully we can have a french revolution type punishment regime for them.

    The legal profession have made a tidy profit out of tribunals, so it is in their interests to make them last as long as possible.
    gnxx wrote: »
    My own annoyance is that the CAB don't seize assets resulting from corruption.

    We simply don't treat corruption as a "proper" crime.

    Do you think that we could raise 1Billion by seizing property based on corrupt planning and taking assets from corrupt public officials?

    Look at all the folks who have openly admited they bribed officials. Why aren't they jailed?

    Agree completely.

    All of Charlie's assets should have been seized years ago, as an example to the rest, including all donations to his kids. If my father had multi millions in the 80's I am sure I would have benifitted as his offspring.

    But in good oul Ireland it makes more sense to send a guy to jail for a year for evading 6 grand tax on fags, even though it will cost the state 50k to keep him and another 20k for procecuting him.
    blinding wrote: »
    These type of people know where there are alot of skeletons buried and they might squeal on others in powerful positions.
    There is huge amounts of corruption going on but we only get to hear about it when for some reason the briber/ reciever falls out.

    Of course you are right they should be jailed but it ain't ever going to happen because then we would get to find out how the business(?)people/bankers/politicians actually manipulate the system for their profit and it would not be in their interests for us to know what they are up to now would it?

    This is where the new lie detectors help, the Brits are about to start using this new Lie detection system this year. This would cut out the bullsh1t.

    Corrupt police, politicians, and lawyers should be made an example of. If only we had a police force capable of enforcing the law.


    "Putting TARA through its paces, a Sunday Times reporter recently took the test twice, answering questions truthfully on the first attempt, and then once again with lies. The program revealed the reporter had taken an average of 1.2 seconds to answer questions truthfully, while an average of 1.8 seconds was needed when telling a lie.
    Gregg said that current polygraph lie-detection tests, which gauge physical reactions in the body, implicate too many innocent people, while other approaches, such as the guilty knowledge test’s loaded questions, see too many people avoiding detection.
    Gregg intends to carry his TARA technology forward by running Home Office-supported field trials in the latter part of 2009."


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    #8
    LoveDucati2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭LoveDucati2


    galwayrush wrote: »
    Why are people in high places rewarded when they mess up? FAS and the Financial Regulator are two that come to mind. They failed in the job they were appointed to , therefore they should have been sacked, Why should they get multi hundred thousand euro golden handshakes and massive pensions, paid for by the tax payer. We have to do with a little over 200 euros a week after a lifetime of hard work, they get paid massive money for failing. I will never pay any property tax even if it means me going to prison as long as our people in power allow this corruption and waste, because i don't want my hard earned money paying for an incompetent failure to live in luxury.

    We the working people are seen as insignificant.

    To quote Bertie "it is not an issue for the people"


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    #9
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    I'm just wondering how the Governor of Illinois http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0130/blagojevichr.html, would have fared in Ireland.
    I like the part about being barred from ever holding public office again, this would have to make them think twice.


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    #10
    LoveDucati2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 379 ✭✭LoveDucati2


    Anyone any ideas on what punishments we could use

    Lets start with Bertie, got a loan, didnt get one, did, didnt, sterling, Euro, Dollar, got another loan or dig out or ??? something. 15 years ago, manchester, Paddy, 10 years ago, signed tax designation for big shopping centre on his last day, found an accidental house, forgot he even bought one for his bird or was it her aunts??.

    The list goes on and on like a tribunal.

    What should he get?

    Any really good novel ways that the public could vote for like Big Politican.

    Start the year with 166 TD's and vote them out as the year goes on.

    Personally the Roman way is the best. A Swift execution encourages the rest to behave.


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    #11
    gnxx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭gnxx


    The American legal expression "fruit of the poisonous tree" could be given a new meaning.

    Any asset developed or matured that involves crime or corruption should be seized by the state.

    You corruptly borrow 30 million from a bank to invest in shares or buy land. The investment yields 300 million -- you forfeit the 300 million.

    You build a shopping centre based on brown-envelope rezoning. State seizes shopping centre.

    LoveDucati2 wrote: »
    Anyone any ideas on what punishments we could use


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    #12
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    gnxx wrote: »
    You corruptly borrow 30 million from a bank to invest in shares or buy land. The investment yields 300 million -- you forfeit the 300 million.
    Plus interest on the 300 million

    speaking of 30 million if it turns out that there was ANY corruption on the M50 bridge will NTR hand back all their takings ??


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    #13
    conlonbmw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 187 ✭✭conlonbmw


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Plus interest on the 300 million

    speaking of 30 million if it turns out that there was ANY corruption on the M50 bridge will NTR hand back all their takings ??

    Is there any NTR connection to Bertie, who made money on that deal?


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    #14
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    There is a big problem in detecting these crimes. For the most part if I offer a bribe to a public official and that official takes it, there are no witnesses to the act. It is in neither my, nor the public official's interest to come forward.

    The law should be that only accepting bribes is the criminal act. The problem is when corruption takes hold it is hard to do ordinary business without bribing officials or politicians. It is very convenient, then, for these officials to have the person offering the bribe to be also liable. It means the bribing can go in with impunity and the official taking the bribe is nowhere near as exposed.


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