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Eircom gives-in to RIA in breach of peoples' constitutional rights

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    #32
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    watty wrote: »
    Are you concerned about free speech or getting copyright content for free?

    I have no interest in getting intellectual property for free. The output of my work every day is intellectual property. My sole concern is freedom of expression.


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    #33
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Actually it only applies to eircom customers, not bitstream wholesale. So more like 45% to 65%.

    However all the national ISPs are likely to endorse this because if they fought the Rights holders in court they would likely lose and have to install monitoring equipment which is a very broken scheme indeed as it can't tell illegal from legal P2P.

    Instead of a knee jerk reaction read my two posts in sig that explain this. We don't yet know how eircom will implement this.


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    #34
    Mena
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Mena


    probe wrote: »
    The issue here is not breach of copyright by an internet user. It is that an organisation has got eircom to agree to pull the plug on anyone who they blacklist by IP number - with the implication that because eircom agrees, every other ISP will be forced to comply. ie if you are blacklisted, your air supply will be cut off.

    No court case. No judge. No rights. You are offline. Period.

    You've still not made a case here in my opinion. If you contravene the T&C's you signed when accepting the product, they will cut you off. This has been the case since they launched BB. There are no changes here and certainly no breach of the Constitution.

    Then again, it all comes back to the simple "don't steal music/DVD's or any copyrighted material". Problem solved.

    If you could expand on your reasoning as displayed here ...
    The slippery slope to port blocking, censorship, tracking the websites you visit and the links you click on to "read your mind" and profile you. Fingerprint you. Determine whether you can go to boards.ie or wherever you wish to go. Pull the plug power. Criticise our organization and we have the means to take you off the net.

    ... because to tell you the truth, I don't follow. You appear to be taking a significant leap from one to the other.


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    #35
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    probe wrote: »
    Porno is surely covered by the morality word in the constitution? There is no issue of proportionality if you host child pornography on your internet connection. You should be in prison (if found guilty after receiving due legal process - something denied to you by this eircom agreement!)

    Stealing is probably also covered.

    I know you should be in prison if you host a pornographic site but we are not talking about that, we are talking about your ISP disconnecting you because of you are hosting it.


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    #36
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    probe wrote: »
    Porno is surely covered by the morality word in the constitution? There is no issue of proportionality if you host child pornography on your internet connection. You should be in prison (if found guilty after receiving due legal process - something denied to you by this eircom agreement!)

    So stealing copyright material is ok morally or its proportionately morally ok?
    Maybe the copyright holders whose material is being stolen would like to see such thieves subject to a due legal process?

    If you are stealing copyright material then having your broadband cut off (after two previous warnings mind you) and at least for the present the opportunity to take your custom elsewhere is hardly a huge punishment is it?

    And if innocent people find themselves cut off in such a process then I am sure the bad publicity will force Eircom to reexamine their cases.


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    #37
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    probe wrote: »
    I have no interest in getting intellectual property for free. The output of my work every day is intellectual property. My sole concern is freedom of expression.

    But freedom of expression is also subject to legal limitations.


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    #38
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    dub45 wrote: »
    And why were you not on here ranting in similar vein when NTL abruptly terminated the contracts of people who they claimed were massively downloading a while ago?

    In my books an ISP in entitled to sell n GB of traffic for EUR Y. This doesn't mean that they are entitled to cut you off you you exceed n GB of downloads. Anymore than the ESB should be able to cut you off because you use z kWh of electricity every month, as long as you pay the bill.

    The idea of "download caps" is a stupid misnomer in my books. Fine give customers a basic "download allowance" of x GB if an ISP wishes to, followed by an additional charge of €w per GB after that. So long as one has a competitive marketplace, any ISP who imposes a download allowance won't get away with offering at least 250 GB per month. [Which is barely enough to download 8 HD movies].


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    #39
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    probe wrote: »
    In my books an ISP in entitled to sell n GB of traffic for EUR Y. This doesn't mean that they are entitled to cut you off you you exceed n GB of downloads. Anymore than the ESB should be able to cut you off because you use z kWh of electricity every month, as long as you pay the bill.

    The idea of "download caps" is a stupid misnomer in my books. Fine give customers a basic "download allowance" of x GB if an ISP wishes to, followed by an additional charge of €w per GB after that. So long as one has a competitive marketplace, any ISP who imposes a download allowance won't get away with offering at least 250 GB per month. [Which is barely enough to download 8 HD movies].

    Still doesn't explain why you weren't on here ranting about their constitutional rights being denied.


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    #40
    shayser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭shayser


    watty wrote: »
    Eircom ALREADY have a clause in T&C that they can disconnect you if they think you are contravening copyright.
    How does Eircom know if a subscriber to their broadband service is contravening copyright (already)?


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    #41
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    dub45 wrote: »
    But freedom of expression is also subject to legal limitations.

    Of course. But why should the "RIAA lot" be able to switch probe's internet connection off if he continued to post stuff like this? Send his IP number to the ISP cartel, and that will shut him up for good. Assuming he was depending on an Irish ISP :-)


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    #42
    Kensington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,683 ✭✭✭Kensington


    Seriously, are you for real? It's pretty damn simple - don't break the law and you've nout to worry about. Where's the problem?


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    #43
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    dub45 wrote: »
    Still doesn't explain why you weren't on here ranting about their constitutional rights being denied.

    probe is simply interested in people's (and his own) constitutional rights being upheld. When Ireland did a smoking ban, most of the rest of Europe followed. No problem with that.

    But don't let's have a ban on freedom of expression doing a European rollout as a result of an "Irish precedent".


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    #44
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    probe wrote: »
    Of course. But why should the "RIAA lot" be able to switch probe's internet connection off if he continued to post stuff like this? Send his IP number to the ISP cartel, and that will shut him up for good. Assuming he was depending on an Irish ISP :-)

    Actually you have reached such a hysterical level in the thread that they would be doing you a favour in switching your internet connection off if you continued to post stuff like this.

    And it is simple nonsense to suggest that they can shut anyone up for good not that is about shutting anyone up anyways.


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    #45
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    shayser wrote: »
    How does Eircom know if a subscriber to their broadband service is contravening copyright (already)?

    AFAIK there have been individual cases where the activities of certain customers have been brought to the attention of isps by the industry. There is a post in the other long thread about a BT customer being requested to stop sharing a film.


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    #46
    Jev/N
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭Jev/N


    probe wrote: »
    But why should the "RIAA lot" be able to switch probe's internet connection off if he continued to post stuff like this?

    1. They don't cut the connection, the ISP do
    2. WTF are you on about; seriously?


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    #47
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    probe wrote: »
    probe is simply interested in people's (and his own) constitutional rights being upheld. When Ireland did a smoking ban, most of the rest of Europe followed. No problem with that.

    But don't let's have a ban on freedom of expression doing a European rollout as a result of an "Irish precedent".

    You will do yourself a serious injury with such extreme jumps and you have yet to give even the slightest credible example of anyones freedom of expression being denied.


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    #48
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Jev/N wrote: »
    1. They don't cut the connection, the ISP do
    2. WTF are you on about; seriously?

    Indeed!:rolleyes: If it was a bit later in the evening I might even suggest substance abuse:) well that might be a charitable explanation:)


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    #49
    Jev/N
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭Jev/N


    probe wrote: »
    When Ireland did a smoking ban

    Me fail English? That's unpossible.


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    #50
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    Bohrio wrote: »
    Stealing is probably also covered.

    I know you should be in prison if you host a pornographic site but we are not talking about that, we are talking about your ISP disconnecting you because of you are hosting it.

    Yes - but in law there is an issue of proportionality between the offense and the punishment. And the right to judicial process before punishment is delivered.

    If you didn't have these principles, you could be shot by a store detective who suspected you were shoplifting. All you would need is an agreement between Smith & Wesson to supply the gun and the retailer. There wouldn't be any need for a court to decide if you stole the merchandise or whether or not being shot was a fair punishment for your crime.


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    #51
    shayser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭shayser


    Jev/N wrote: »
    1. They don't cut the connection, the ISP do
    In effect, is it not really the "music industry" that is cutting the connection? The only disconnections will those people (identified by their Eircom assigned IP address) who are accused by this one group. So, this group can disable a person's house alarm, perhaps lose a person their job if they are a teleworker, etc? I'm just asking if they do have the right to do this? An out-of-court settlement has been reached, as reported. Would this be published? Wondering if Eircom has said to the music companies "ok, if you give us the offending IPs we'll disconnect them". The copyright infringements absolutely must be stopped. But who gives the record companies the right to take away a persons broadband?


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    #52
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    shayser wrote: »
    In effect, is it not really the "music industry" that is cutting the connection? The only disconnections will those people (identified by their Eircom assigned IP address) who are accused by this one group. So, this group can disable a person's house alarm, perhaps lose a person their job if they are a teleworker, etc? I'm just asking if they do have the right to do this? An out-of-court settlement has been reached, as reported. Would this be published? Wondering if Eircom has said to the music companies "ok, if you give us the offending IPs we'll disconnect them". The copyright infringements absolutely must be stopped. But who gives the record companies the right to take away a persons broadband?

    In effect the person themselves when they sign up for broadband and accept the isp's terms and conditions.

    How can they disable a person's house alarm by the way? And if someone is a teleworker then just like a car owner who depends on their car for a living it behoves them to 'drive' carefully.

    How come no one here ever seems to say what about the musicians or copyright owners whose livelihood is threatend by downloading over the interent?

    Who gives a broadband user the right to take away a musician's livelihood?


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    #53
    probe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭probe


    dub45 wrote: »
    You will do yourself a serious injury with such extreme jumps and you have yet to give even the slightest credible example of anyones freedom of expression being denied.

    I did propose how one's freedom of expression might be inhibited in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58837508&postcount=41

    However the measures haven't been implemented yet. So it would be impossible to provide concrete examples of people's freedom of expression being denied, yet. However if the Dept of Agriculture decided to execute anybody who stole a sheep, or even deprive them of food, I don't think it would be an "extreme jump" to criticize their proposal.


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    #54
    Bohrio
    Registered Users Posts: 2,752 ✭✭✭Bohrio


    probe wrote: »
    Yes - but in law there is an issue of proportionality between the offense and the punishment. And the right to judicial process before punishment is delivered.

    If you didn't have these principles, you could be shot by a store detective who suspected you were shoplifting. All you would need is an agreement between Smith & Wesson to supply the gun and the retailer. There wouldn't be any need for a court to decide if you stole the merchandise or whether or not being shot was a fair punishment for your crime.

    That's right. But we are not talking court, judges, police... Eircom will not be taking anyone to court, all they will do is, after 2 warning, cancel the service they are providing that particular person with, because, among other things, he/she is breaking their T&C, where it says that downloading these material is illegal.

    So, would you be ok if Eircom were to disconnect a person who is hosting a pornographic site? (forget about the legal side of this) I suppose you'll agree with that. The reason why Eircom will do that is the same as why they will cease your line if you download copyrighted music, that person will be breaking their T&C.

    The procedure is the same, if the police find out that someone is running an ilegal site they will trace it back to a particular person (IP) and ask his/her ISP to bring that site down. In the case you are referring to is the music industry who will notify Eircom, the difference is that, for the moment, the music industry wont go after the person whether the police will, and that's when a judge, court and the rest comes into play.

    Its all in the T&C, if you break it you will have to pay the consequences.

    Otherwise people will do as they please, as long as is not too wrong or to immoral...


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    #55
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    probe wrote: »
    I did propose how one's freedom of expression might be inhibited in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58837508&postcount=41

    And I did point out that you have not yet given even one slightly credible example.
    probe wrote: »

    However the measures haven't been implemented yet. So it would be impossible to provide concrete examples of people's freedom of expression being denied, yet. However if the Dept of Agriculture decided to execute anybody who stole a sheep, or even deprive them of food, I don't think it would be an "extreme jump" to criticize their proposal.

    To misquote a previous poster but in the same vein - Are you for real?


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    #56
    Jev/N
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭Jev/N


    Eircom T&Cs wrote:
    5. The Customer agrees to comply with the following conditions:
    .
    ..
    ....
    ..
    .
    5.5 Customers may not use the Facility to create, host or transmit material,which infringes the intellectual property rights including, but not limited to, the copyright of another person or organisation.

    give me one reason that Eircom shouldn't cut someone off after warning them twice regarding their conduct


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    #57
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    this is nice and all lads but we already have a thread on this subject

    Having internet access is not a right it does not come under any European, Irish law or otherwise and is not part of some human rights charter or law, if you breach eircom T&C's they are well within their rights to terminate your service...end off.

    Got a problem with this then go to court...hell go to European courts if it makes you feel better but you won't win if you've been downloading copyright material...you can twist it all you want in your screwed up little mind.

    LOCKED
    GO HERE INSTEAD > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055474230


This discussion has been closed.
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