Being gay and having a religion

Bougeoir

Hey all,

I'm new here and I'm doing a survey on LGBT people practising a religion whilst being LGBT (opening or secretly) or if any changed religions due to your particular religion's stance on LGBT issues. Or did you reject a specific religion and feel it's not really important in your life.

Myself, I was raised Catholic but my parents only did it out of family tradition and are not religious at all and have no problem with my homosexuality. But I really dislike the church for the most part and their stance on homosexuality annoys me so I subscribe to pagan Wiccan beliefs instead because there is generally no issue being pagan and homosexual as it is an unorganised religion without any governing body and a lot is left up to the individual. Also, many covens have a number of gay members.

Anyway I want to hear your experiences and views because it's something which I'm interested in a lot.

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

Hey all,

I'm new here but was just wondering of many LGBT people practise a religion whilst being LGBT (opening or secretly) or if any changed religions due to your particular religion's stance on LGBT issues. Or did you reject a specific religion and feel it's not really important in your life.

Yes I did change religion and yes the one I am in suits me just fine
and I am not closeted in either of those areas of my life.

Bougeoir wrote: »

so I subscribe to pagan Wiccan beliefs instead because there is generally no issue being pagan and homosexual as it is an unorganised religion without any governing body and a lot is left up to the individual. Also, many covens have a number of gay members.

Eh actually you need to go and read your Wiccan history.
Gays were forbidden orginally and traditionally from being part of the priesthood of Wicca as it is a fertility cult. Including such people was one of the many 'crimes' which were laid at Alex Sander's door
and him being bisexual was oft sited as making him unfit to be a initiated HP of Wicca
even as the founder of the Alexandrian tradition.

It's not that long ago in this country that when a '******' applied to
join a well known coven that several of it's members left including
the person who was the coven maiden at the time.

Yes paganism is an umbrella term and pagan communities are with out any governing body
but Wicca has it's structures even with coven's having a certain amount of autonomy.

There are plenty of witchcraft traditions which are not Wicca such as the
reclaiming tradition which have always embraced queer witches and
then there are people who are working eclectically with out a proscribed tradition
and the support structures which go with that.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Anyway I want to hear your experiences and views because it's something which I'm interested in a lot.

Personally it was the sexism in the catholic church which rankled from an early age
rather then it's stance on homosexuality.

shay_562

I'm an atheist because of my general personal beliefs; I don't think the Catholic Church I was raised in telling me I'd burn in hell for being who I am (while merrily ignoring any Old Testament passages that they don't feel like enforcing any more) didn't help, but I reckon I'd feel the same way about the existence of a higher being, or lack thereof, even if I were straight.

rainbow kirby

Raised Catholic, but I've been an atheist since I was 12.
LGBT issues didn't come into my opinion on religious matters when I was younger (wasn't out to myself or others until my early 20s), but the general Christian stance on homosexuality irritates the crap out of me. The rampant sexism of pretty much all organised religion was a bigger dealbreaker.

Tricity Bendix

I would come from a Catholic family, but none bar maybe my dad would go to church on a regular basis. I went through a religious phase in my late teens, attending mass most weeks but also visiting services of the Anglican and Methodist faiths. In the past few years I've found it difficult to square some of the more glaring contradictions, so I've knocked it on head. I've got quite a spiritual side, but I'm still looking for a way to express it in a way that doesn't grate with my logical side.

Cabbage Brained

I was brought up going to the Church of Ireland, but I have had a lot of exposure to the Catholic Church too. The Church of Ireland sickens me a little less than the Catholic Church, but all in all I'm pretty disparaging about any religion. I really genuinely find it extremely hard to see how somebody can believe in God. Honestly, I find Santa Claus and the Fairy Godmother as believable, and I'm not joking. I really can't see past it being merely a psychological crutch, and I genuinely feel sorry for people who "believe".

All that said, I'm very respectful of others and rarely voice my opinions. A couple of my good friends are quite religious, and they probably don't know quite how I feel about it as I don't think it's my place to impose my beliefs on them, as they don't impose their's on me. If they tried to though, they'd find out pretty quickly. Overall I'm fine with religious people as long as they don't try to convert me.

And regarding the Catholic Church's stance on homosexuality: LOL, just LOL.

dny123456

Born and brought up Catholic - quickly realized that god had way too much in common with Santa. I rather would have preferred they told me god was the made up one and Santa was real. He's far more fun.

Cabbage - I agree completely. The unfortunate thing, although this is changing, they have so many unthinking people following their preachings, that we cannot just ignore and 'lol' at the teachings of the catholic church.

Goodshape

I went for the 'non-religious' option.

I'm an atheist in the sense that I don't believe in a God. And non-religious in the sense that I don't subscribe to any one particular set of beliefs.

At the same time, I have a lot of respect for the teachings and practices of Buddhism -- but see no point in limiting myself by adopting any sort of "I am a Buddhist" label.

I also have, or have had, an interest in Paganism, Wikka, Magick, Discordianism and good ol' scientific reason. There's just far too many interesting ways to think and look at the world, imo, to limit yourself to any one "faith". Maybe when I've tried out a few more I'll make some sort of educated (hopefully) decision about it.

None of these choices has much to do with my being homosexual (I was poking holes in Christianity (like everyone else in Ireland I grew up with that one) long before even I realised I was gay)

Nevyn

Non religous but spiritual ?

Goodshape

Thaedydal wrote: »

Non religous but spiritual ?

Pretty much, yeah. Also not a fan of labels

Most of the better spiritual teachings and ideas I've read seem to be different interpretations of the same things, which I find really interesting. When science is able to provide a clear and proven answer to these things, I do tend to favour that interpretation. But science is a progressive thing -- theories are put forth, proven and disproven, and new theories arise all the time. At the very least it can be a lot of fun to explore other ('spiritual') ways of looking at that which we don't yet fully understand.

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

Yes I did change religion and yes the one I am in suits me just fine
and I am not closeted in either of those areas of my life.



Eh actually you need to go and read your Wiccan history.
Gays were forbidden orginally and traditionally from being part of the priesthood of Wicca as it is a fertility cult. Including such people was one of the many 'crimes' which were laid at Alex Sander's door
and him being bisexual was oft sited as making him unfit to be a initiated HP of Wicca
even as the founder of the Alexandrian tradition.

It's not that long ago in this country that when a '******' applied to
join a well known coven that several of it's members left including
the person who was the coven maiden at the time.

Yes paganism is an umbrella term and pagan communities are with out any governing body
but Wicca has it's structures even with coven's having a certain amount of autonomy.

There are plenty of witchcraft traditions which are not Wicca such as the
reclaiming tradition which have always embraced queer witches and
then there are people who are working eclectically with out a proscribed tradition
and the support structures which go with that.



Personally it was the sexism in the catholic church which rankled from an early age
rather then it's stance on homosexuality.

Yes I was brought up Catholic also like many people in this country and I just don't agree with their stance on many things including homosexuality. Well actually I did read up on homosexuality and Wicca but there isn't so much clear cut information on it because there really is no governing body like the way the Catholic Church is. Of course I know that there exist certain covens like Gardnerian coven. Apparently Gerald Gardner was homophobic though and certain more traditional covens aren't the most accepting of LGBTs. Although I'm not into joining covens tbh as I feel I've really had enough of organised religion and all these rigid structures and all that. Rather, my friends and I practise Wicca together and we are all LGBT. I won't claim we are "experienced" or "professional" but I feel I'm much happier being Wiccan this way. New covens are set up all the time and some are orientated towards LGBT or are at least accepting. Apparently the Feri Tradition is open towards all sexualities and the Dianic Tradition welcomes lesbians. There is also a tradition set up recently (2004) in America by gay men known as the The Brotherhood of the Phoenix. I am aware that perhaps some homophobia did/does exist within Wicca but for the most part it is a hell of a lot more open to it that say Catholicism or Islam.

Bougeoir

Oh by the way thank you everyone for contributing to this thread keep it up! The results are rather as I expected but some people have some interesting views.

Nevyn

I am sorry if the mods of this forum see this as going off topic but I am compeled to make a few points:

Bougeoir wrote: »

Yes I was brought up Catholic also like many people in this country and I just don't agree with their stance on many things including homosexuality. Well actually I did read up on homosexuality and Wicca but there isn't so much clear cut information on it because there really is no governing body like the way the Catholic Church is.

There are rules and guidelines but the are for those who are initiated and who are Wiccan and if you wanted to know you would have to be working towards an initiation other then that they don't apply to anyone other then
those who have been initiated.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Of course I know that there exist certain covens like Gardnerian coven. Apparently Gerald Gardner was homophobic though and certain more traditional covens aren't the most accepting of LGBTs.

You have to consider the social constructs of the day as homosexuality was consider to
be a mental illness back then.

Traditional covens will exclude people on a wide range of reasons and some times it just comes down
to a person not fitting or gelling with the group which can appear to be pretty insubstantial
but then again so is magic it's self at times.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Although I'm not into joining covens tbh as I feel I've really had enough of organised religion and all these rigid structures and all that.

Believe me not all covens are organised or have rigid structures,
yes Wiccan covens can be but it seems to be need for the training of
those who are initated to do thing in the proscribed Wiccan way.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Rather, my friends and I practise Wicca together and we are all LGBT.
I won't claim we are "experienced" or "professional" but I feel I'm much happier being Wiccan this way.

What is a coven ?
I would say it is a group of witches working to get focused on the one goal
so it could be that your collective is or is becoming a coven.

Wicca is not a catch all word for Witchcraft.
Not all witches are pagan.
Not all pagans are witches.
Not all pagan witches are Wiccans.

All Wiccans are pagan and witches.
All Wiccans have proper Wiccan Lineage given by cross gendered initation.

Wicca is an Oathbound, Lineaged, cross gendered Initatory, Experiential, Mystery, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches.
You can't 'do' Wicca unless you have been initiated and trained to do so.

You can be pagan and worship and celebrate and preforum rites and magic
and it is a spiritually filling and valid as Wicca but it's not Wicca.

Bougeoir wrote: »

New covens are set up all the time and some are orientated towards LGBT or are at least accepting. Apparently the Feri Tradition is open towards all sexualities and the Dianic Tradition welcomes lesbians. There is also a tradition set up recently (2004) in America by gay men known as the The Brotherhood of the Phoenix.

All of which are wonderful that people are finding thier own way but that doesn't make them
or what they are doing Wicca.

Bougeoir wrote: »

I am aware that perhaps some homophobia did/does exist within Wicca but for the most part it is a hell of a lot more open to it that say Catholicism or Islam.

Wicca and paganism has had quiet the intresting history over the last 60 years and
there has been a lot of growth and change over that time.

What has been intresting is the way that queer paganism is looking to the old tribal traditions
in where there was a place and accpetance of those who were 3rd sex or gender be it anyone who id as LGBT.

One of the terms used for that is two spirit people.

http://www.denvertwospirit.com/index.php

Two-spirit is a universal term we have adopted. In the early 80s, there was a group of Native Americans who wanted to change the perspective of what two-spirit meant. It used to be known as "berdache" in academic communities, and Two Spirit was a new word that could be accepted. That's where the two-spirit term came from. Two spirit people did exist within our cultures and we want to go back to that. It's about going back and relearning traditions. Some of the native communities didn't support two-spirit people within the communities. Many of the two-spirit people would leave the reservations and flee to the cities. Two Spirit is different than gay or lesbian.

Two Spirit is life. Before I had a word for it, it's me. Even as a kid I was a mediator between the sexes, between genders. I was raised--I can lay cement and shingle a roof with the best of them. I can also wear a suit and high heels with the best of them. Tradition says that we have been touched by the grandfather, the great spirit, to be who we are. This is not something we chose. It is a deep responsibility. It's not something that is taken lightly. It doesn't mean that some of us don't identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender.

Two Spirit people exist everywhere. We were the people who held the community together. We were more concentrated on the community--carrying on the songs, the stories, the cultural ways.

jady88

I'm openly gay and I read and sing at mass roman catholic that is.

Bougeoir

jady88 wrote: »

I'm openly gay and I read and sing at mass roman catholic that is.

Oh really? that's interesting. Do people generally have an issue or the priest or anything? And do you think that being gay and Catholic (Christian) is a problem, like what's your view on it? I'm just curious. Sorry if I'm badgering you with questions! lol

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am sorry if the mods of this forum see this as going off topic but I am compeled to make a few points:

There are rules and guidelines but the are for those who are initiated and who are Wiccan and if you wanted to know you would have to be working towards an initiation other then that they don't apply to anyone other then
those who have been initiated.

You have to consider the social constructs of the day as homosexuality was consider to
be a mental illness back then.

Traditional covens will exclude people on a wide range of reasons and some times it just comes down
to a person not fitting or gelling with the group which can appear to be pretty insubstantial
but then again so is magic it's self at times.

Believe me not all covens are organised or have rigid structures,
yes Wiccan covens can be but it seems to be need for the training of
those who are initated to do thing in the proscribed Wiccan way.

What is a coven ?
I would say it is a group of witches working to get focused on the one goal
so it could be that your collective is or is becoming a coven.

Wicca is not a catch all word for Witchcraft.
Not all witches are pagan.
Not all pagans are witches.
Not all pagan witches are Wiccans.

All Wiccans are pagan and witches.
All Wiccans have proper Wiccan Lineage given by cross gendered initation.

Wicca is an Oathbound, Lineaged, cross gendered Initatory, Experiential, Mystery, Fertility Cult of Clergy who are Pagans and Witches.
You can't 'do' Wicca unless you have been initiated and trained to do so.

You can be pagan and worship and celebrate and preforum rites and magic
and it is a spiritually filling and valid as Wicca but it's not Wicca.

All of which are wonderful that people are finding thier own way but that doesn't make them
or what they are doing Wicca.

Wicca and paganism has had quiet the intresting history over the last 60 years and
there has been a lot of growth and change over that time.

What has been intresting is the way that queer paganism is looking to the old tribal traditions
in where there was a place and accpetance of those who were 3rd sex or gender be it anyone who id as LGBT.

One of the terms used for that is two spirit people.

Oh ok I get it now! Thanks for taking your time to clear that up for me! So you can only ever be a Wiccan if you're initiated into it and have Wiccan linage. So I'd then be better off calling myself a witch or a pagan then? It's interesting - I know a good number of lesbians who are interested a lot in paganism and have these all lesbian pagan groups and stuff. Are you Wiccan or pagan/witch?

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

Oh ok I get it now! Thanks for taking your time to clear that up for me![/.quote]

Your welcome.

Bougeoir wrote: »

So you can only ever be a Wiccan if you're initiated into it and have Wiccan linage.

Yup.

Bougeoir wrote: »

So I'd then be better off calling myself a witch or a pagan then?

Well there's no honour in claiming titles and ranks which aren't yours to claim it how I have looked at it.

Bougeoir wrote: »

It's interesting - I know a good number of lesbians who are interested a lot in paganism and have these all lesbian pagan groups and stuff.

That would not surprise me at all.

Rev Hellfire

Bougeoir wrote: »

So you can only ever be a Wiccan if you're initiated into it and have Wiccan linage. So I'd then be better off calling myself a witch or a pagan then?

Call yourself what ever you believe yourself to be. If that's a catholic, wiccan, Buddhist or whatever its for you to decide not others.
Religion is a private thing and if you're comfortable with yourself and what you believe the views of others are irrelevant. Your sexuality doesn't even feature into it.

Talliesin

Thaedydal wrote: »

Eh actually you need to go and read your Wiccan history.
Gays were forbidden orginally and traditionally from being part of the priesthood of Wicca as it is a fertility cult.

Gardner was quite definitely homophobic, but then at the time so was everyone.

It's worth also adding to the history that at the time homosexuality was still often thought of as a mental disorder. Mental disorders would definitely weigh against making someone a priest, not absolutely but it could certainly make it a bad idea for both the tradition's sake and for the individual in question.

Most of the commentary at the time though had no real theological basis, it was just plain old homophobic bigotry and as society changed generally so did the Craft. There are now a very large number of gay and lesbian practitioners, including 3rd degree's running covens.

The fertility cult aspect of the Craft does still have one effect. While it doesn't preclude gay participation (gays and lesbians after all come into this world through fertility and eat food that does so too, every male lover I've had got here the same way as every female lover I've had, so I have to thank fertility for them [especially those men who had some training in massage, thank you fertility!]). It does mean that there is a heterofocal aspect to Wiccan practice that while it doesn't preclude gay or lesbian participation may not chime with some gays and lesbians (for that matter, it may not chime with many straights either).

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Call yourself what ever you believe yourself to be. If that's a catholic, wiccan, Buddhist or whatever its for you to decide not others.

Eh, no. You can't be a Catholic unless you are baptised Christian and you can't be a Catholic Priest unless you are ordained one. Likewise you can't be a Wiccan unless you are initiated one, can't be a Muslim unless you perform the shahada and so on.

And well, if you were Catholic you would believe that was a rule for being Catholic, if you were Wiccan you would believe that was a rule for being Wiccan, and if you were Muslim you would just perform the Shahada. No?

Rev Hellfire

Talliesin wrote: »

Eh, no. You can't be a Catholic unless you are baptised Christian and you can't be a Catholic Priest unless you are ordained one. Likewise you can't be a Wiccan unless you are initiated one, can't be a Muslim unless you perform the shahada and so on.

And well, if you were Catholic you would believe that was a rule for being Catholic, if you were Wiccan you would believe that was a rule for being Wiccan, and if you were Muslim you would just perform the Shahada. No?

Who says you can't call yourself a catholic if you believe yourself to be one?
Baptism for example is symbolic thing as much as a rite, the water is not required simply the will. At one time to become a jew you simply had to declare yourself to be one. All the little additions are just limitations others put in to make their little clubs more exclusive.

I'm assuming that what ever religion they profess to be they're following as they understand it not simply saying they are for reasons of fashion. True it would be better if they interacted with others of the same faith to get a clearer understanding and new insights into it, but ultimately its between them and whatever they feel the need to bend knee to.

And if they say they're Christian, wiccan, Buddhist, Jewish or whatever then that's good enough for me. Sure others might say if you're not doing X,Y or Z or believe A,B or C you're not allowed in the club, but we've all seen enough of religion to know that these are artificial boundaries, and hardly consistent within the various faiths. But I guess this is all somewhat of the topic.

Ultimately to the OP just follow your own conscience and if you're honest with yourself you'll not go wrong.

Bougeoir

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Who says you can't call yourself a catholic if you believe yourself to be one?
Baptism for example is symbolic thing as much as a rite, the water is not required simply the will. At one time to become a jew you simply had to declare yourself to be one. All the little additions are just limitations others put in to make their little clubs more exclusive.

I'm assuming that what ever religion they profess to be they're following as they understand it not simply saying they are for reasons of fashion. True it would be better if they interacted with others of the same faith to get a clearer understanding and new insights into it, but ultimately its between them and whatever they feel the need to bend knee to.

And if they say they're Christian, wiccan, Buddhist, Jewish or whatever then that's good enough for me. Sure others might say if you're not doing X,Y or Z or believe A,B or C you're not allowed in the club, but we've all seen enough of religion to know that these are artificial boundaries, and hardly consistent within the various faiths. But I guess this is all somewhat of the topic.

Ultimately to the OP just follow your own conscience and if you're honest with yourself you'll not go wrong.

Yeah you're right actually because I used to be Presbyterian (was baptised catholic and actually got a defection). But when I was Presbyterian I actually asked the minister as to whether I needed to get baptised but she said it wasn't necessary. That if I had faith and declared myself Presbyterian that was all that was needed. In fact I came out as gay to many people whom I knew there and they were so welcoming and nice about it. No homophobia whatsoever. I didn't stick with it because I found myself not really believing in it and felt it really wasn't for me. I am ever so grateful to that congregation for welcoming me in like that and as far as religions go (and many people are quick enough to say bad things about it) I felt it was a positive example of true Christian spirit.

I'm happy now with my own beliefs which as mainly philosophical and pagan. My friend and I are deeply interested in many pagan practises and we have are own personal thing going on.

Talliesin

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Who says you can't call yourself a catholic if you believe yourself to be one?

The Pope.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Baptism for example is symbolic thing as much as a rite, the water is not required simply the will.

Cite please.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

At one time to become a jew you simply had to declare yourself to be one.

Cite please.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm assuming that what ever religion they profess to be they're following as they understand it not simply saying they are for reasons of fashion.

Why assume that?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

True it would be better if they interacted with others of the same faith to get a clearer understanding and new insights into it,

If you claim to be of religion X and religion X maintains that you must have such an interaction, then you are claiming to maintain that you must have such an interaction. If you don't, then you are calling yourself a liar.

Also, "faith" implies that religions are always a matter of what one believes, which isn't true.

The fact is that there are people who do just say "oh, I am X" and not only not don't abide by the way of X but are downright hostile to it. It's bigoted cultural appropriation.

Bougeoir wrote: »

Yeah you're right actually because I used to be Presbyterian (was baptised catholic and actually got a defection). But when I was Presbyterian I actually asked the minister as to whether I needed to get baptised but she said it wasn't necessary.

Pretty irrelevant since Presbyterians recognise Roman Catholic baptisms as baptisms, so in having already been baptised you were following their rules.

Bougeoir

Talliesin wrote: »

Pretty irrelevant since Presbyterians recognise Roman Catholic baptisms as baptisms, so in having already been baptised you were following their rules.

Oh I didn't know that. Explains. thanx

Rev Hellfire

Talliesin wrote: »

The Pope.

The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic church, but it is not for him to dictate who is or is not a catholic. For example he can excommunicate a person, but he can't 'stop' them from been a catholic. That authority belongs to god.

Talliesin wrote: »

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Baptism for example is symbolic thing as much as a rite, the water is not required simply the will.

cite

Its my understanding of it as I have gleaned from speaking to various christians. As for citing I don't see any reason since I don't acknowledge any requirements.
Bear in mind Jesus never baptised anyone, which is why the Quakers for example don't believe it to be necessary.
But perhaps asking in the Christianity forum would offer a wide selection of differing views on the topic if OP is sufficiently interested. Its a topic which has come up before.

And that's the point, in religion there's no one set of rules which everyone agrees on, each have taken their own baggage and appended it as a set of 'requirements'.

Talliesin wrote: »

Rev Hellfire wrote:

At one time to become a jew you simply had to declare yourself to be one.

cite

Do some searches on Reform Judaism and the issues they have with the more orthodox requirements.

Talliesin wrote: »

I'm assuming that what ever religion they profess to be they're following as they understand it not simply saying they are for reasons of fashion.

Why assume that?

Why would I assume different ? Do you always assume people set out to deceive ?

Talliesin wrote: »

If you claim to be of religion X and religion X maintains that you must have such an interaction, then you are claiming to maintain that you must have such an interaction. If you don't, then you are calling yourself a liar.

Also, "faith" implies that religions are always a matter of what one believes, which isn't true.

The fact is that there are people who do just say "oh, I am X" and not only not don't abide by the way of X but are downright hostile to it. It's bigoted cultural appropriation.

I think this illustrates the major difference between our understanding of faith/religion. And I can understand why you might think so, but for me if I believe myself to be something and believe it not to be a self-deceit then I am that thing. The rules only apply if I believe them to be valid and true.
As I stated before faith in my view is wholly personal thing.

Talliesin wrote: »

Pretty irrelevant since Presbyterians recognise Roman Catholic baptisms as baptisms, so in having already been baptised you were following their rules.

That's because a baptism is not an entry into a particular church rather 'into' the Christian faith as a whole.

Talliesin

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

As I stated before faith in my view is wholly personal thing.

I'll agree with you there. Faith is not the same as religion though. Depending on the balance between praxis and doctrine it might have very little to do with a given religion, or nothing at all.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

That's because a baptism is not an entry into a particular church rather 'into' the Christian faith as a whole.

Doesn't saying that discount your argument?

Rev Hellfire

Talliesin wrote: »

I'll agree with you there. Faith is not the same as religion though. Depending on the balance between praxis and doctrine it might have very little to do with a given religion, or nothing at all.

Indeed I'd agree with you faith is not the same as a religion, but religion is just a collection of common beliefs and practices. For example many catholic par-take of pre-martial sex, excessive drink, etc all of which are against church teaching, but most would not see that as a reason for them not been catholic/christian. Its what they believe that's important, not the rule book.

Talliesin wrote: »

Doesn't saying that discount your argument?

It would if I believed you had to go through the baptism rite to become a Christian, but I don't. Its simply why baptisms are recognised by inter-Christian churches. Then again some born again sect, disregard infant baptisms because the child does not actively par-take. Which means theres a whole lot of unbaptised people walking about

Bougeoir

As this is on the LGBT forum, just want to pose another question to posters. Have any of youse gotten a defection from the catholic Church? I have myself because I didn't wish to be a part of an establishment which discriminates against LGBT. There was an article in a recent GCN about it actually. The author made a good point by saying that they get tax relief or whatever on the amount of people they have!

Talliesin

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

but religion is just a collection of common beliefs and practices.

Beliefs and/or practices. Some religions have just the latter. Many of both the beliefs and the practices concern membership.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

For example many catholic par-take of pre-martial sex, excessive drink, etc all of which are against church teaching, but most would not see that as a reason for them not been catholic/christian. Its what they believe that's important, not the rule book.

No, the fact is their rule-book does not state that they are no longer Catholic because they have done so.

Nevyn

Bougeoir wrote: »

As this is on the LGBT forum, just want to pose another question to posters. Have any of youse gotten a defection from the catholic Church? I have myself because I didn't wish to be a part of an establishment which discriminates against LGBT. There was an article in a recent GCN about it actually. The author made a good point by saying that they get tax relief or whatever on the amount of people they have!

You can ask to be struck off their records.
Personally I went the route of getting formally excommunicated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

Rev Hellfire

Talliesin wrote: »

Beliefs and/or practices. Some religions have just the latter.

Now I wholly admit that I'm not familiar with all world religions, but of those I am all require an element of belief. That is where belief is faith in the existence of the unquantifiable, ie. the existence of deities and supernatural forces.

Though I am open to correction.

Bougeoir

Thaedydal wrote: »

You can ask to be struck off their records.
Personally I went the route of getting formally excommunicated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

How did you manage that? Do I wanna know?! lol :P

So is defection not the same as excommunicaton then? Also would they excommunicate somebody on the grounds of being actively homosexual? Jst wondering...

Btw will ppl please try to keep this thread on topic? It is got to do with homosexuality and religion, not just religion and theology. Thanks.