Ireland's atheist majority?

Zamboni

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Hmmmmmm.....I think I read in an article a while back that the Priest (s) do get plenty of "work" so to speak from people, either religious or non-religious, looking for guidance through personal grief or trauma. Like it or not, the Chapel serves a positive purpose I suppose. Especially given that waiting lists for seeing the University guidance counsellors are apparently quite high.

You don't need a priest to guide you through trauma. You need a counsellor.
The service takes place in the Arts block anyhow not in the chapel.
UCD needs parking spaces!

*stops going OT*

mickeydevine

Húrin wrote: »

Many of the problems we have are the same ones most societies did. We have some new problems and lack some of their problems. They did some things better than we do. For instance, modern civilisation has caused more social alienation than existed in medieval times. This doesn't mean medieval times were better. This shows however that not everything gets better with time, certainly not the human moral condition.

I think that one of the the worst aspects of our epoch is the colonisation of human consciousness by consumerism. Ed Bernays and his followers abused the research of Freud and other psychoanalysts in order to effectively create false needs, and sell false solutions for them.

The modern 'sophisticated' 21s century man's mind is stuffed with as much myths and superstitions as ever.

I agree 100%.

sukikettle

removed

sink

sukikettle wrote: »

Wick I do know Jesus...I have had supernatural occurences. Your comparison with Scarlett is ???????? When you lodge your money...you expect it to be there...when you sleep you HOPE to wake up and when you eat you expect it to satisfy.If that is your great expectation of the mundane how could you possibly know what I know. There is no comparison. You do not know what you are talking about and you have never asked God to make Himself real to you.

I laughed out loud when I read your last few posts. I know it's not polite laughing at other peoples mental delusions but I sometimes can't help myself. Have your contributions anything do to with the topic being discussed?

In regards to the original topic. I don't know anyone personally who is of my own generation and is a practising Christian. Most of my friends are just not interested and don't think about it.

Húrin

sukikettle wrote: »

You've never known Jesus Christ Wick...so how you can argue against something 'made up' is a bit contradictory and hypocritical.If you were so sure you wouldn't spare sites like these a single thought. So what are you fighting against me does wonder. Whereas I have my hand up against your forehead looking at you running very fast towards me and not making any ground!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apologetics fail.

Jakkass wrote: »

Or will the children of atheists in the future seek for a higher purpose in life, and be introduced to the Bible outside the traditional sphere of how it's been done in the past?

I would advise both of you not to seek simple grand narratives that predict the future. History is a messy, surprising and ironic process.

However, history does indeed suggest that religion undergoes declines and revivals, rather than the sort of very gradual decline over centuries that Zamboni seems to imagine.

Wicknight wrote: »

Never known Scarlet Johansen either, that is was my point.

You don't know Jesus. Christians don't know Jesus. They just think they do because it makes them feel good.

Careful, that's the kind of line that sends a thread flying right off-topic.

maldana

Húrin wrote: »

I am in my early 20s, in an institution of third level education in Dublin. Most of my peers are middle-class, and from all over Ireland and most appear to be atheists (and many so testify if asked). Not ardent, Dawkins-type atheists, but nonetheless they live without God. All religious groups are small minorities.

Now, this contradicts the cliche that Ireland is a mostly Catholic country. I expect that there are many people who have spiritual feelings and beliefs but unfortunately keep it privatised and stunted.

Do you think (not hope) that this is representative of the way Ireland is going soon?

I have to say I am in the same boat. Most of my (mid to late 20s) peers seem to live without religion or God in their lives. I would consider my self a spiritual person and a believer in God, I wouldn't say I'm staunchly Catholic or consistently practise its rituals but I would privately pray to God or light a candle in Church and go to mass the odd time. A lot of the time I seem to come up against people who are either agnostic or atheist or who have no opinion on the subject either way and to be honest the latter part is scarier.

At least if someone is agnostic or atheist they have thought about religion, faith and beliefs and contemplated human existence, why we are here and for what reason etc. But a few people I know seem to have no opinion or even care on the issue whatsoever, it is not a factor in their lives and religion means nothing to them whatsoever. Whether they are secretly spiriual or not is another story but why would people be secretive about this, is it something to be ashamed of or belittled about nowadays? Personally I would consider religion an important part of someone's life and they should at least question it or form an opinion on it. If they don't believe or have their own reasons for having no faith that's fair enough, at least they have thought about it.

From experience it seems to be way Ireland is going. There is a lot of young people who have faith etc but the majority who retain the principles of the Catholic religion are older people. I don't think in order to be religious or spiritual you have to practise according to a particular organised religion but if its actual practising Catholicism that is stated to be dying out then I would have to agree.

Dades

Suki, last chance to contribute something other than your usual fare to this forum...

Handsome Bob

Zamboni wrote: »

You don't need a priest to guide you through trauma. You need a counsellor.
The service takes place in the Arts block anyhow not in the chapel.
UCD needs parking spaces!

*stops going OT*

It does? So what is the Chapel actually used for?

As I said, I've read that the waiting lists are very high for seeing the counsellors in UCD. I think the appeal is that its' free and that going to the Uni counsellors is perhaps a better way of keeping anonymity in terms of not wanting the family to know. Also, I've noticed through bereavments that Priests are much more "aware" of how to approach a young person going trough turmoil. Specifically, if the young person doesn't want to hear it, they lay off the religious advice and just play the role of a counsellor without the qualifications.

sukikettle

removed

Zamboni

sukikettle wrote: »

Sink I expect to find you parked beside Zamboni staring up at the arts block...you guys will face tough choices and you guys will ask yourselves hard questions and you will be totally alone at that point and then what will you do...stumble on? Dades kick me...you're good at kicking the guy presenting an argument. In fact kick me for Jesus...make my day!

Drugs. That's all I can say.

fitz0

sukikettle wrote: »

Zamboni when life has you by your nuts we know we'll find you parked contemplating your situation maybe staring up at the arts block

It is a rather nice building isnt it? A perfect setting for our inner architect to contemplate life, the universe and everything.
EDIT: Damn Im thinking of the trinity one. Dont have a clue what the UCD one looks like. To Google!

sink

sukikettle wrote: »

Sink I expect to find you parked beside Zamboni staring up at the arts block...you guys will face tough choices and you guys will ask yourselves hard questions and you will be totally alone at that point and then what will you do...stumble on? Dades kick me...you're good at kicking the guy presenting an argument. In fact kick me for Jesus...make my day!

I won't be alone, I have friends and family who support me. They are real I can call them up on my phone or drive over to their houses and have a bi-directional conversation with them. They can also help me out physically as well as mentally by giving me a helping hand. True happiness comes from social bonds we build with our friends and family.

sukikettle

sink they won't heal you or divert the disaster from your life they won't open up doors or put the right people and job etc in your path family and friends pick up the pieces

Húrin

Wicknight wrote: »

that is critical assessment :rolleyes:

you just don't like that answer because it doesn't confirm what you want to be true.

It's one type of critical assessment. Some people don't know that there are others.

I reject the claim that theism has been disproven, and also the claim that every atheist has subjected their beliefs to the rigour of critical assessment.

mickeydevine wrote: »

Every question we have can be answered with our own research and we can make up our own minds about the world and how we got here, not just the ideas we we're taught in school and growing up. Its about the evolution of the human mind/consiousness.

mickeydevine wrote: »

I agree 100%.

Consistency fail.

fitz0

Thats a pretty bleak outlook you have on life there sukikettle. The way you put it friends and family are almost meaningless. I would really hate to have such a view and I almost pity it.

sink

sukikettle wrote: »

sink they won't heal you or divert the disaster from your life they won't open up doors or put the right people and job etc in your path family and friends pick up the pieces

It depends in what context you mean by healing and diverting disaster. And my current job I got with the help of a family member, so you are obviously wrong on that point. Regardless I am not deluded enough to think that an imaginary sky being is going to.

Húrin

maldana wrote: »

At least if someone is agnostic or atheist they have thought about religion, faith and beliefs and contemplated human existence, why we are here and for what reason etc. But a few people I know seem to have no opinion or even care on the issue whatsoever, it is not a factor in their lives and religion means nothing to them whatsoever. Whether they are secretly spiriual or not is another story but why would people be secretive about this, is it something to be ashamed of or belittled about nowadays? Personally I would consider religion an important part of someone's life and they should at least question it or form an opinion on it. If they don't believe or have their own reasons for having no faith that's fair enough, at least they have thought about it.

From experience it seems to be way Ireland is going. There is a lot of young people who have faith etc but the majority who retain the principles of the Catholic religion are older people. I don't think in order to be religious or spiritual you have to practise according to a particular organised religion but if its actual practising Catholicism that is stated to be dying out then I would have to agree.

I agree. I find the lack of thought worrying, and it convinces me that this generation is no different to the previous generations who didn't think much about what they were told.

I think that people feel it is something that they have to keep private. Irish people are so tight when it comes to discussing religion. I rarely have a discussion about faith with a non-Christian without them becoming stern, glum and awkward.

I wasn't thinking about Catholicism in particular, but rather religious groups in general.

sink wrote: »

I won't be alone, I have friends and family who support me. They are real I can call them up on my phone or drive over to their houses and have a bi-directional conversation with them. They can also help me out physically as well as mentally by giving me a helping hand. True happiness comes from social bonds we build with our friends and family.

Indeed, community is extremely important in the Christian life. More so than in our culture's dominant capitalist ideology.

sink

Húrin wrote: »

Indeed, community is extremely important in the Christian life. More so than in our culture's dominant capitalist ideology.

That is the one thing that I do respect about religion. Whatever it's other ills it did and still does provide a vital service bringing communities together. If only it could do so without the superstition.

deadhead13

We are still very much in the minority, most recent poll I remember had believers at around 90% in Ireland. Surprised me, but there you go.

Handsome Bob

maldana wrote: »

I have to say I am in the same boat. Most of my (mid to late 20s) peers seem to live without religion or God in their lives. I would consider my self a spiritual person and a believer in God, I wouldn't say I'm staunchly Catholic or consistently practise its rituals but I would privately pray to God or light a candle in Church and go to mass the odd time. A lot of the time I seem to come up against people who are either agnostic or atheist or who have no opinion on the subject either way and to be honest the latter part is scarier.

At least if someone is agnostic or atheist they have thought about religion, faith and beliefs and contemplated human existence, why we are here and for what reason etc. But a few people I know seem to have no opinion or even care on the issue whatsoever, it is not a factor in their lives and religion means nothing to them whatsoever. Whether they are secretly spiriual or not is another story but why would people be secretive about this, is it something to be ashamed of or belittled about nowadays? Personally I would consider religion an important part of someone's life and they should at least question it or form an opinion on it. If they don't believe or have their own reasons for having no faith that's fair enough, at least they have thought about it.

From experience it seems to be way Ireland is going. There is a lot of young people who have faith etc but the majority who retain the principles of the Catholic religion are older people. I don't think in order to be religious or spiritual you have to practise according to a particular organised religion but if its actual practising Catholicism that is stated to be dying out then I would have to agree.

I think that is the central issue in regards to this thread, as well as age being another central issue. Among my age group, I think you'll find among a lot of people that religion is something that isn't relevant to them or even something they see as "uncool". Personally when I was a Catholic I was made feel ashamed by some people that I knew. Simply put young people that actively practice their religion can find themselves alienated or made feel stupid. It's sad to see.

Dades

Suki no longer in the mix. Thanks all for moving on.

sukikettle

sukikettle wrote: »

sink they won't heal you or divert the disaster from your life they won't open up doors or put the right people and job etc in your path family and friends pick up the pieces

So you think that God puts you in the right job and other simple, mundane things like that? It's funny. God can give you a job, but, he can't give food or health to the millions of unbelievably poor people in the world, who constantly pray to him. Yes, he favours you, suki.

Anyway, sorry for going off-topic.

Húrin

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

So you think that God puts you in the right job and other simple, mundane things like that?

That is called the "prosperity gospel", a heretical caricature of Christian beliefs. His use of it makes me think he is an anti-Christian person trolling with a Christian persona.

Zamboni

Húrin wrote: »

That is called the "prosperity gospel", a heretical caricature of Christian beliefs. His use of it makes me think he is an anti-Christian person trolling with a Christian persona.

That's brilliant.
His belief is different to yours so he must be an anti-thiest **** stirrer!
Tough at the top there Hurin.

philologos

Zamboni wrote: »

That's brilliant.
His belief is different to yours so he must be an anti-thiest **** stirrer!
Tough at the top there Hurin.

He's actually discussing an actual trend within Christianity. People like Joel Osteen have been at the forefront of this. "The Lord will provide for you financially if you have faith" being the typical message, rather than encouraging Christians with wealth to distribute their wealth to those less fortunate through various causes. We've been discussing this on the Christianity forum.

This link will give you a jist:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/septemberweb-only/137-41.0.html

fitz0

Now theres nothing left for luxuries
Nothing left to pay my heating bill
But the good lord will provide
I know he will
So send what you can
To the man with the diamond ring
Theyre tuning in across the land
To hear him sing

Just a musical aside. What was the name of that documentary on joel olsteen where he exposed how they get peoples money?

Húrin

Zamboni wrote: »

That's brilliant.
His belief is different to yours so he must be an anti-thiest **** stirrer!
Tough at the top there Hurin.

There are plenty of beliefs that are different to mine, many of which are professed by Christian posters here, such as predestination, literal transubstantiation, and hell, but I don't see them as evidence of them being anti-theist trolls.

Goduznt Xzst

Húrin wrote: »

I reject the claim that theism has been disproven, and also the claim that every atheist has subjected their beliefs to the rigour of critical assessment

Please, oh please, show me who has said that theism has been disproven. For you to reject a claim I'm assuming someone has made it?

Atheists aren't trying to disprove theism, its impossible. Just as much as you don't try to disprove the existance of all of the gods in this list, you merely accept that the others don't exist.

Atheists try to show that theism has no relevance to our lives or existence, whether a god exists or not is irrelevant, there is no legitimate evidence for its existance or its affect on the universe or this world so until such evidence appears we should not concern ourselves with it.

Imagine, Húrin, how much you let Zeus affect your day to day life, that is what an Atheist wants you to do in regards to Yahweh.

Basically, we don't know which, if any, god exists, and you don't either. To say you do is either arrogance or delusion. You pick.

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

It's one type of critical assessment. Some people don't know that there are others.

There are others?

Do you mean having a good old think about whether God exists or not?

Húrin wrote: »

I reject the claim that theism has been disproven

Well yeah, you are a theist aren't you?

But theism being "disproven" is a red herring. You know perfectly well that the supernatural cannot be disproven, and as such you are safe to say that it hasn't been so you are going to keep believing in it, as if that makes your beliefs sound perfectly reasonable and rational. Which is like saying the FSM has never been disproven, or the flying tea pot.

Húrin wrote: »

, and also the claim that every atheist has subjected their beliefs to the rigour of critical assessment.

I've no idea if every atheist has subjected their beliefs to the rigours of critical assessment. I do know that theists haven't.

But then you guys get around that by just changing what critical assessment means, throwing 300 years of scientific philosophy out the window because it doesn't give you the pleasing answers you seek.

Zombrex

Húrin wrote: »

That is called the "prosperity gospel", a heretical caricature of Christian beliefs. His use of it makes me think he is an anti-Christian person trolling with a Christian persona.

Yeah but he is still saved, right :pac: