Making the future of Irish multi-lingual.

turgon

donegalfella has a very good point, imagine we all learned French instead of Irish in school??? It would contribute a lot more to "knowledge economy" than that sad excuse for a tongue does.

Grudaire

Iolar wrote: »

The Welsh are another example a proud people of their heritage and language we as a nation have to think very seriously of the path we are taking especially in regard to our culture and our language before they are both eroded completely.

That's something that could also be looked at, closer language ties between all the celtic nations, it is really only practical for Uladh Irish and Scottish Irish

siobhan.murphy wrote: »

a start could be listening to RnG or even watching the nuacht..

It really depends on the person themselves. There is stuff there alright, and TG4 has some great show as well.

Soldie

I think some posters are missing an important point. The fact that most Irish people have little to no interest in the Irish language isn't anti-Irish, nor is it a lack of pride in one's culture (if such a thing exists). The reality is that, sad as it may be, the Irish language simply isn't a part of contemporary Irish culture any more - or at the very most, an increasingly small component. The romantic notion that we must revive the language in order reinforce a national identity is extremely primitivist, and it is entirely out-of-touch with modern-day Ireland. While it's unfortunate that the language was stamped out over the course of our history, the reality is that it happened, and we'd be best making peace with that instead of pumping more money into a plan that clearly isn't working.

I'd wholeheartedly support a complete overhaul of the antiquated secondary school Irish syllabus, but I'd also contend that it should not be a mandatory class. As a matter of fact, I think such measures may even result in something of a mini-revival of the language - given the fact that many people's distaste for the language comes as a result of them associating it with having crappy Irish poets rammed down their throats in secondary school.

Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

I think some posters are missing an important point. The fact that most Irish people have little to no interest in the Irish language isn't anti-Irish, nor is it a lack of pride in one's culture (if such a thing exists).

I agree thus far

turgon wrote: »

donegalfella has a very good point, imagine we all learned French instead of Irish in school??? It would contribute a lot more to "knowledge economy" than that sad excuse for a tongue does.

Soldie wrote: »

The reality is that, sad as it may be, the Irish language simply isn't a part of contemporary Irish culture any more - or at the very most, an increasingly small component. The romantic notion that we must revive the language in order reinforce a national identity is extremely primitivist, and it is entirely out-of-touch with modern-day Ireland. While it's unfortunate that the language was stamped out over the course of our history, the reality is that it happened, and we'd be best making peace with that instead of pumping more money into a plan that clearly isn't working.

Off topic in my opinion

Soldie wrote: »

I'd wholeheartedly support a complete overhaul of the antiquated secondary school Irish syllabus, but I'd also contend that it should not be a mandatory class. As a matter of fact, I think such measures may even result in something of a mini-revival of the language - given the fact that many people's distaste for the language comes as a result of them associating it with having crappy Irish poets rammed down their throats in secondary school.

I have to say that the secondary school sylabus is a bit mad alright. They treat Irish far far too much like English (and I hated English). I disagree about removing the compulsory aspect of Irish, unless English is also made non-compulsary (now I'm going off topic).

I think that there is something to changing the sylabus, but how can a change to the sylubus bring around a like of Irish?

SkepticOne

I think most people will agree that simply teaching it in schools, no matter how well it is taught, will not make it a living language. Merely being able to speak a language doesn't mean that you will speak it. The only way is to create communities of sufficient size (for example a city) where it is the main language. I don't know how you would do this and I'm not sure it would be worth it in any case, but for me that is the only point in knowing a language, i.e, to participate in a community where that language is spoken. Unfortunately Government policy seems to be to continue to teach Irish as a dead language without any thought about where this is going.

Permabear

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Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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Listen I might deal with all these questions in another thread. To be honest the chances of either of us convincing the other is slim to none. However what did Irish do to make you so spitefull you'll keep posting in a thread that isn't dealing with that. The language must have raped your mother and sent you the video. I mean really I'm not forcing this on you one bit. You're here giving out to me for no reason.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Did anyone? And according to the wikipedia entry a mere 24% never speak Irish. However this is not the thread to discuss it in. So would you ever just leave it alone for fecks sakes

LordSutch

OK, Here's one for you Cliste, why is the Welsh Language doing so well?

I honestly don't know, i'm just asking the question "Whats their 'Magic' formula"?

dolliemix

Irish will not be a dead language as long as I'm alive!

Úsáidim an teanga gach lá.

If Irish had not been compulsory in school I probably would not be fluent in it now, which would be sad because I love it. I also did French in school and German in college. I haven't had the opportunity to use them since but I don't resent the fact that I had to learn them, and hope sometime to take them up in the future again.

In the meantime I've been learning Spanish.

I worked in Kolcatta in India a few years ago, and when teaching the children to count to ten, realised purely by accident, that Bengali has the same Sanskrit basis as Gaelic. Apart from the number five which is pancha (not sure the spelling is correct, but how it was pronounced, the rest of the numbers were extremely similar.

I studied Biology and Economics for the Leaving Cert but haven't needed them since. However, I'm glad that my mind was exposed to them.

Every subject can open your mind to new things if you allow it imo.

I know I'm biased, but in my life Irish has served me well. I'm amazed, actually, at the amount of people who do speak Irish and are happy to have national language that sets us apart from other countries.

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

OK, Here's one for you Cliste, why is the Welsh Language doing so well?

I honestly don't know, i'm just asking the question "Whats their 'Magic' formula"?

that could be a very productive question! And to be honest I'm not all that sure myself!

Here's an article I found about it. Ironically it attributes the efforts of the government with it's revival.

However this website is more what I thought happened. More that the concessions were hard earned. I remeber reading a quote from Michael Collins which was along the lines of 'A revival of the Irish language must come from the people, supported by the government, not be forced upon the people' (very much paraphrased).

The Welsh had a campaign of writing Welsh on signposts, effectively creating a bi-lingual state themselves. The opposite is in danger of happening here with places like an Daingean wanting to remain as Dingle

Soldie

Cliste wrote: »

The Welsh had a campaign of writing Welsh on signposts, effectively creating a bi-lingual state themselves. The opposite is in danger of happening here with places like an Daingean wanting to remain as Dingle

And why should they be forced to use a language that they don't want to use?

If the average Irish person had a genuine interest in Irish then they'd learn it themselves, but the reality is that few do, and even fewer use it on a regular basis. There's no justification for force-feeding it to us, even if it was the native tongue of our ancestors. The government is wasting our taxmoney by funding an impossible mission, and economics aside - having a vocal and nationalistic minority trying to force something upon the masses is a precedent to be wary of. Why not compulsory bodhrán and Irish dancing lessons while we're at it?

What a lot of people fail to realise is that cultures shift and change with the times, and striving towards something we had in the past does not make us any more or less Irish. We're still Irish, even if our former language is on its deathbed. Did people in the middle-ages preoccupy themselves with trying to restore pagan rituals in an effort to forge an identity?

That Irish has all but disappeared is sad, no doubt - but it has happened. English is the mother tongue here now, as much as it seems to pain a lot of people to admit it.

'A revival of the Irish language must come from the people, supported by the government, not be forced upon the people' (very much paraphrased)

Doesn't that support my point, rather than yours?

Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

And why should they be forced to use a language that they don't want to use?

If the average Irish person had a genuine interest in Irish then they'd learn it themselves, but the reality is that few do, and even fewer use it on a regular basis. There's no justification for force-feeding it to us, even if it was the native tongue of our ancestors. The government is wasting our taxmoney by funding an impossible mission, and economics aside - having a vocal and nationalistic minority trying to force something upon the masses is a precedent to be wary of. Why not compulsory bodhrán and Irish dancing lessons while we're at it?

What a lot of people fail to realise is that cultures shift and change with the times, and striving towards something we had in the past does not make us any more or less Irish. We're still Irish, even if our former language is on its deathbed. Did people in the middle-ages preoccupy themselves with trying to restore pagan rituals in an effort to forge an identity?

That Irish has all but disappeared is sad, no doubt - but it has happened. English is the mother tongue here now, as much as it seems to pain a lot of people to admit it.

Doesn't that support my point, rather than yours?

OK, for the last time the thread asks how, not WHY.

and I believe it supports both of our points. Yours for the wrong reasons. And to say that there is no effort on the side of the people is a complete insult to many

Soldie

Cliste wrote: »

OK, for the last time the thread asks how, not WHY.

Yes, and assuming the original poster is talking about making Ireland bi-lingual, I'm claiming that it's neither possible nor feasible - and even if it were, it'd be wrong to strive towards that, for reasons outlined above. I don't see how that is off-topic?

Permabear

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Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

Yes, and assuming the original poster is talking about making Ireland bi-lingual, I'm claiming that it's neither possible nor feasible - and even if it were, it'd be wrong to strive towards that, for reasons outlined above. I don't see how that is off-topic?

Well I feel that while questioning the feasibility of certain projects is productive and helpfull.

However I have to put up with the like of this from you, and your enthusiastic thanker:

Donegalfella wrote:

Are you serious? This is "practical"? Doesn't it makes much more sense for people to become fluent in modern European languages such as French and German, rather than in factionalized Celtic dialects that might only come in handy on the Outer Hebrides?

Soldie wrote: »

striving towards something we had in the past does not make us any more or less Irish.

The likes of this Oliver Cromwell himself would be proud of. How dare you yourselves force English on me. While I agree with you that many mis-guided attempts at helping the language has occurred why do you think that I should listen to you? I mean I am here talking with you, being reasonable in what is really your language, yet you insist on picking the fight.

Permabear

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Soldie

The likes of this Oliver Cromwell himself would be proud of.

This is precisely the mentality that must be shrugged. English is not a foreign language, it is our mother tongue, as evidenced by the fact that 100% of Irish people speak it fluently, compared to only 3% speaking Irish as their first language.

A lot of armchair republicans seem to think that accepting this is something of a betrayal of identity, but the reality is that English is the language of Ireland right now, and that much is indisputable.

And with respect, how exactly am I picking a fight? I'm merely defending my opinion, and I think the statistics are stacked highly in my favour.

anladmór

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not really. There isn't that many jobs in the EU atm. Germany the biggest power in EU has an unemployment rate of over 8%, mainly low skilled workers, the exact type of worker that in Ireland will face the brunt of the recession.

Now Germany will undergo major infrastructure work in time but Irish workers probably won't be able to compete. As the Polish showed here you don't really need to be able to speak the language to be work hard on a construction site.

Remember its mainly upper middle and upper class continential Europeans who are bi-lingual, and they are at an advantage that they have access to all the american and british culture that we have. In Ireland we don't have the same access German tv shows, radio, films, so its not fair to make a comparison like that.

(I have to back up the Irish language here, I think the opinions of donegal, soldie is extremely patronising to the language and not really answering the question)

Permabear

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dolliemix

donegalfella wrote: »

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Just because students are studying Irish in school it does not inhibit the learning of another European language.

All irish students must sit at least one foreign language in school as well as Irish!!!

There is nothing stopping them from putting their energy into learning the foreign language(s) and doing ordinary level Irish! Infact many students study two foreign languages and Irish on top of that.

Irish students are given the opportunity to learn other languages. It's just easier not to given that English can be used almost all over the world. The fact that Irish people 'wont ever know' continental languages, as you put it, has absolutely nothing to do with the Irish language. It's an easy way to blame being lazy about learning a language though I suppose:rolleyes:

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

dolliemix wrote: »

All irish students must sit at least one foreign language in school as well as Irish!!!

That's true only if you categorise English as a foreign language.

dolliemix

donegalfella wrote: »

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The fact is , many irish people are fluent and proficient in foreign languages......so obviously having studied Irish at school did not hinder Irish people from progressing in said languages

Permabear

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Grudaire

Soldie wrote: »

This is precisely the mentality that must be shrugged. English is not a foreign language, it is our mother tongue, as evidenced by the fact that 100% of Irish people speak it fluently, compared to only 3% speaking Irish as their first language.

A lot of armchair republicans seem to think that accepting this is something of a betrayal of identity, but the reality is that English is the language of Ireland right now, and that much is indisputable.

And with respect, how exactly am I picking a fight? I'm merely defending my opinion, and I think the statistics are stacked highly in my favour.

I'll tell you how you are picking a fight - the topic in question is how to create a bi-lingual society. Now how often have you ignored me saying it?

in fact

How would you advise...

Is the question. Feck it you need more English lessons - set up another thread, and I will deal with what you are saying.


The fact of the matter is that we are discussing HOW ok? HOW, look it up.

And nice suddenly I'm a flaming republican. You are here actively campaigning against Irish, I mean COP ON

Mena

Cliste wrote: »

I'll tell you how you are picking a fight - the topic in question is how to create a bi-lingual society. Now how often have you ignored me saying it?

in fact



Is the question. Feck it you need more English lessons - set up another thread, and I will deal with what you are saying.


The fact of the matter is that we are discussing HOW ok? HOW, look it up.

And nice suddenly I'm a flaming republican. You are here actively campaigning against Irish, I mean COP ON

Surely without a why, how is irrelevant?

Grudaire

Mena wrote: »

Surely without a why, how is irrelevant?

I have seen a fair few Why debates on Irish here on boards, and it might be refreshing to have a proper talk about the practicalities of how - compulsary Irish is an issue that should be discussed in the context of promoting Irish. What'll happen here is that we'll end up with our backs to the walls, and hell I might begin advocating deportation for English speakers, and you advocating the genocide of Irish speakers

bk

What I don't get is why some people assume Irish defines our cultural and that it is our ancestral language, when it is just as much a foreign import as Nordic, French and English are.

Irish is a Indo-European language introduced by the celts around 2000 to 1200 BC, however their were people living in Ireland for thousands of years before that and they had their own language (now dead obviously).

The Irish language has gone through massive changes from Primitive Irish, to Old Irish, to Middle Irish, to Early Modern Irish and finally Modern Irish. The early forms of Irish are almost completely different to the modern forms of Irish, so different they might as well be different languages, if a modern Irish speaker and a early celt were to meet, they would find it impossible to communicate.

So why don't we revive these early forms of Irish, rather then "modern Irish"? Why do we write Irish using the latin alphabet, rather then Ogham?

The truth is that Irish doesn't define our culture, it has certainly enriched our culture, much as Nordic, French and English has, but cultures change and the reality is that Irish has little relevance in modern Irish culture.

Grudaire

bk wrote: »

What I don't get is why some people assume Irish defines our cultural and that it is our ancestral language, when it is just as much a foreign import as Nordic, French and English are.

Irish is a Indo-European language introduced by the celts around 2000 to 1200 BC, however their were people living in Ireland for thousands of years before that and they had their own language (now dead obviously).

The Irish language has gone through massive changes from Primitive Irish, to Old Irish, to Middle Irish, to Early Modern Irish and finally Modern Irish. The early forms of Irish are almost completely different to the modern forms of Irish, so different they might as well be different languages, if a modern Irish speaker and a early celt were to meet, they would find it impossible to communicate.

So why don't we revive these early forms of Irish, rather then "modern Irish"? Why do we write Irish using the latin alphabet, rather then Ogham?

The truth is that Irish doesn't define our culture, it has certainly enriched our culture, much as Nordic, French and English has, but cultures change and the reality is that Irish has little relevance in modern Irish culture.

Another one :mad:

bk

Cliste wrote: »

Another one :mad:

And is anything I said factually incorrect, or is it you just can't face the truth?