Making the future of Irish multi-lingual.

Mena

Cliste wrote: »

I have seen a fair few Why debates on Irish here on boards, and it might be refreshing to have a proper talk about the practicalities of how - compulsary Irish is an issue that should be discussed in the context of promoting Irish. What'll happen here is that we'll end up with our backs to the walls, and hell I might begin advocating deportation for English speakers, and you advocating the genocide of Irish speakers

I do see your point. I guess the problem is that discussions tend to be fluid and trying to pigeon hole them into a certain direction is not easy.

I see the problem you're facing in Ireland though, hell, we have 11 official languages in South Africa, try get that on a stop sign!

I learned 4 languages in school. English (Primary language), Afrikaans (secondary), Xulu and Sotho. I'm fluent in the first two and not too bad in the others, but on a day to day basis in South Africa, English and Afrikaans are the two spoken languages, so much so that even now, eight years on, I still mix the two languages into one seamlessly (cue weird looks from my Irish hosts).

The thing is, with these two languages, they are both used, daily, in everyday life. From newspapers to TV to Road signs to conversation. This has kept both very much alive. The native African languages are, however, only spoken at home, or when the parties actually understand them. This is far less frequent and so English and Afrikaans have become the de facto national languages.

The problem you have here in Ireland is the sheer lack of usage of the Irish language. I, as a foreigner, have never had occasion to need to know or use it. Whereas in, and I am just using this as an example, I am sure it applies elsewhere, South Africa, you'd run into (very) slight difficulties not knowing Afrikaans if you spent any length of time there.

As to your "how" question, it needs to be used, in conjunction with English. From what I have seen, it simply is not. I know my "how" is (to say the least) overly simplistic, but without usage, it's a non-runner.

Grudaire

bk wrote: »

And is anything I said factually incorrect, or is it you just can't face the truth?

No, you've just ignored all my posts :rolleyes:

Mena wrote: »

I do see your point. I guess the problem is that discussions tend to be fluid and trying to pigeon hole them into a certain direction is not easy.

I'm just trying to avoid the usual outcome - locked thread due to what ends up a insulting game

Mena wrote: »

I see the problem you're facing in Ireland though, hell, we have 11 official languages in South Africa, try get that on a stop sign!

I learned 4 languages in school. English (Primary language), Afrikaans (secondary), Xulu and Sotho. I'm fluent in the first two and not too bad in the others, but on a day to day basis in South Africa, English and Afrikaans are the two spoken languages, so much so that even now, eight years on, I still mix the two languages into one seamlessly (cue weird looks from my Irish hosts).

The thing is, with these two languages, they are both used, daily, in everyday life. From newspapers to TV to Road signs to conversation. This has kept both very much alive. The native African languages are, however, only spoken at home, or when the parties actually understand them. This is far less frequent and so English and Afrikaans have become the de facto national languages.

The problem you have here in Ireland is the sheer lack of usage of the Irish language. I, as a foreigner, have never had occasion to need to know or use it. Whereas in, and I am just using this as an example, I am sure it applies elsewhere, South Africa, you'd run into (very) slight difficulties not knowing Afrikaans if you spent any length of time there.

As to your "how" question, it needs to be used, in conjunction with English. From what I have seen, it simply is not. I know my "how" is (to say the least) overly simplistic, but without usage, it's a non-runner.

That is true, however Irish is in use daily - papers, radio, tv etc are there in Irish. The fact that ALL Irish speakers have English is perhaps a hindrance. Do you think that a direct effort by Gaelgeoir's to just speak Irish would help? Do a 'No Béarla' on it and insist on speaking Irish to everyone... Would this help, or further isolate the language?

Permabear

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Mena

donegalfella wrote: »

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Is Irish taught as a first or secondary language? Just going back to my SA example, you choose which language you want to be taught in, English primary, Afrikaans secondary OR Afrikaans primary and English secondary.

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that by now you could choose any of the 11 official languages as primary.

As to your post, I do agree fully that it's the European (and probably Chinese as well!!) languages that need to be taught in place of Irish, with Irish as a choice subject.

Cliste wrote:

That is true, however Irish is in use daily - papers, radio, tv etc are there in Irish. The fact that ALL Irish speakers have English is perhaps a hindrance. Do you think that a direct effort by Gaelgeoir's to just speak Irish would help? Do a 'No Béarla' on it and insist on speaking Irish to everyone... Would this help, or further isolate the language?

I'd think it would just further isolate the language. At this stage it may just be too late to revive it.

Permabear

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bk

Cliste wrote: »

No, you've just ignored all my posts :rolleyes:

I read all your posts and the problem I have with them is, who died and made you ruler?

You are not an admin and you are not the OP, therefore you have no right to tell people what they can and cannot talk about on this thread.

Asking why we should try to revive Irish is a valid question if you ask how?

Cliste wrote: »

Would this help, or further isolate the language?

It would further isolate it.

To answer your how question, I believe you must first understand the psychology of the Irish people. Irish people are very non conformist and rebellious people, if you try and force something on us, specially something we see no benefit of, we typically rebel against it. I believe that is why the government forcing Irish down our throats at school for many years has failed miserably.

If you want to see Irish grow, you need to use a little reverse psychology. Don't make Irish a required subject in schools any more, change the syllabus so that there are two different Irish syllabus, a variant on the current one for Irish speaking schools and an optional, foreign language type syllabus (with strong emphasis on Irish culture also) for all other schools. Don't punish people who take the latter, it should award the same points as the more traditional type.

Sure this will lead to less people "learning" Irish in school, but I honestly believe it will lead to more people who are fluent in and actually actively use the language. I could see taking Irish becoming trendy, like the Gaelscoil have become and a potential (small) revival like welsh has had.

Grudaire

Mena wrote: »

Is Irish taught as a first or secondary language? Just going back to my SA example, you choose which language you want to be taught in, English primary, Afrikaans secondary OR Afrikaans primary and English secondary.

I'd be willing to hazard a guess that by now you could choose any of the 11 official languages as primary.

As to your post, I do agree fully that it's the European (and probably Chinese as well!!) languages that need to be taught in place of Irish, with Irish as a choice subject.

It's taught as a primary language - you can (and a lot do) study in primary and secondary education through Irish, also there is a limited number of third level courses through Irish.

Mena wrote: »

I'd think it would just further isolate the language. At this stage it may just be too late to revive it.

So if we shouldn't insist on speaking Irish, and the current situation isn't acchieving anything is there any other way in your opinion?

Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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I know the viewing figures are available - but where did you get those figures? (not disagreeing just curious)

and I think the reverse psychology route is interesting, however I don't think that it would work if Gaelgeoirí themselves brought it in!

Bottle_of_Smoke

dolliemix wrote: »

Irish will not be a dead language as long as I'm alive!

Úsáidim an teanga gach lá.

If Irish had not been compulsory in school I probably would not be fluent in it now, which would be sad because I love it. I also did French in school and German in college. I haven't had the opportunity to use them since but I don't resent the fact that I had to learn them, and hope sometime to take them up in the future again.

You see by that logic myself and the rest of the population would be fluent in Irish, I think you're fluent in it because you love it(fair play) and not because it was compulsory.

I personally think Irish and one other foreign language should be mandatory in primary school & junior cert unless the pupil has learning difficulties but for leaving cert everything should be optional.

This would force the Irish language people to teach Irish like a real spoken language and more people would end up using it.

I go to college in Northern Ireland and much more people here can speak it fluently than in Dublin. I don't think its a coincidence that Irish is an optional A level subject in the UK

FTA69

donegalfella wrote: »

Here's the situation: We are in a recession. Many young Irish people are thinking about emigrating to other countries to find work. They have the entire EU at their fingertips—they could go legally tomorrow, with no visas or work permits required, and still be a short Ryanair flight from home. But most of them are going to end up in the USA, Canada, Australia, and other distant Anglophone nations. For the second time in 25 years, masses of Irish people may wind up as illegal immigrants abroad, without proper jobs, proper health care, or the basic dignity that legality bestows.

The reason nobody goes to continental Europe for work is because there isn't any work there and the wages are low in comparison to Australia. The reason people went to the USA in the first place was because of the Famine, nothing to do with the English language, a language half of the people who emigrated could barely speak anyway. People went to Australia as they were giving away free land and people went to Britain as it was the closest country to us where work (with a sterling wage) was freely available up until recently.

And why? Because they can't get jobs in continental Europe if they don't know continental European languages.

Why can't they? Loads of Eastern Europeans came here for work and many of those spoke no English at all.

And Irish people won't ever know continental European languages if we make it our #1 priority to ram a dead, irrelevant language down their throats in the interests of fulfilling the linguistic agenda of nineteenth-century nationalism. That's the long and the short of it. People's futures are at stake here, not just your nationalistic pride.

Oddly enough I remember taking French and German in school, most young people study a continental language in school as well as Irish. People aren't being forced to choose between the two. The thing you can't seem to admit is that people couldn't be arsed learning French the same way they couldn't be arsed learning Irish. It is because the method of teaching in this country is thick, there is no reason why both Irish and French etc could be taught in an oral fashion with an emphasis on conversation.

Bottle_of_Smoke

FTA69 wrote:

The reason nobody goes to continental Europe for work is because there isn't any work there and the wages are low in comparison to Australia. The reason people went to the USA in the first place was because of the Famine, nothing to do with the English language, a language half of the people who emigrated could barely speak anyway. People went to Australia as they were giving away free land and people went to Britain as it was the closest country to us where work (with a sterling wage) was freely available up until recently.

It is to do with language. People don't like the idea of moving somewhere they can't communicate. Wages may be lower but so is cost of living compared to Ireland. Work in Germany you can come home every second weekend, can't do that in Australia

Irish people have typically emigrated to the UK, Australia & North America. Now what's the main thing that unites these nations?

Why can't they? Loads of Eastern Europeans came here for work and many of those spoke no English at all.

You should know better than to come out with that question. There was a building boom here, Eastern europeans came here to earn multiples of what they do at home. They knew there'd be an Eastern European community here so language was less of an issue.

Oddly enough I remember taking French and German in school, most young people study a continental language in school as well as Irish. People aren't being forced to choose between the two. The thing you can't seem to admit is that people couldn't be arsed learning French the same way they couldn't be arsed learning Irish. It is because the method of teaching in this country is thick, there is no reason why both Irish and French etc could be taught in an oral fashion with an emphasis on conversation.

You have a point here, there is less of a language culture here compared to nations where english isn't the first language. However, this possibly stems from learning a badly taught language from the age of 5. I'd actually rather see all subjects taught in Irish in all primary schools than the current situation. The kids would then be fluent in english & irish by age 9/10. Given young kids are better at language they could learn the beginnings of a third language during this time also.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Cliste wrote: »

I agree thus far
I have to say that the secondary school sylabus is a bit mad alright. They treat Irish far far too much like English (and I hated English). I disagree about removing the compulsory aspect of Irish, unless English is also made non-compulsary (now I'm going off topic).

Although I agree with you(I think every subject should be optional at leaving cert level) that mention of English really smacks of anti-Britishness, kind of makes me think your motive for keeping Irish compulsary has very little to do with promoting Irish itself.

I think that there is something to changing the sylabus, but how can a change to the sylubus bring around a like of Irish?

If it was taught differently at primary level kids could easily be fluent after 8 years of exposure. Then they would see the value of having another language(whatever that may be) and wouldn't have a dislike of it.

Grudaire

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Although I agree with you(I think every subject should be optional at leaving cert level) that mention of English really smacks of anti-Britishness, kind of makes me think your motive for keeping Irish compulsary has very little to do with promoting Irish itself.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not pro/anti Britain/England/Great Britain/United Kingdom or any combination of the the above.

I just hated English as a subject - C3 after learning loads of quotes! Who cares about suicidal poets

FTA69

Irish people have typically emigrated to the UK, Australia & North America. Now what's the main thing that unites these nations?

Traditionally booming economies and the presence of vast communities of other Irish people. If you move to London or Boston you will find a community you can become part of, numerous Irish owned companies centred around construction and waste-disposal offering good money as well as a social network of community groups, pubs, clubs, shops and the GAA. You'll find areas like Kilburn or Southie. You won't find that in Vienna. The reason I went to London was because I had family and friends there who could set me up initially.

People initially went to the USA because there was f*ck all else places to go in the 1850s, language was a hindrance because the first wave of Irish peasants didn't speak good English at all. After the establishment of a community in England and the USA, Irish people simply followed their own. Australia and North America initially represented the "New World" and were the lands of oppurtunity while Europe was dirt poor, that's why there was never an Irish tradition of going to the continent.

Likewise Australia and North America were simply the destinations for immigrants in general, the vast majority of them being non-English speakers from Europe, Asia and Africa. Irish people simply happened to be more familiar with English than the rest, but they went there because it was the only place to go, not because of the language.

They knew there'd be an Eastern European community here so language was less of an issue.

And it was the exact same for Irish people who emigrated. They followed aunts, uncles, cousins, brothers and friends to areas where the Irish were well established.

However, this possibly stems from learning a badly taught language from the age of 5.

You can't blame bad Irish teaching for the Irish distaste for foreign langauges. The Brits and Americans have an even worse attitude to European languages than we do. It is because the English-speaking world is culturally hegemonous over the rest of the world that people couldn't be bothered to learn French etc.

LordSutch

I'll take it as a 'given' that the teaching of the Irish language in the Republic has failed miserably since the foundation of the State, with just 3% of the population fluent in the language there must be some fundemental reasons for its abysmal showing ................

Recovery plan;

1/ Make Irish 'non compulsory' in Secondary School.
2/ Give the Parents the 'Option' of Irish lessons for Primary School.
3/ Make Irish lessons 'Fun Lessons' in Schools (to attract pupils)!
4/ Bring the Irish language into the Dail (tentatively) )
5/ Throw out the current Irish syllabus in Primary & Sceondary Schools.
6/ Send a linguistics 'Task Force' to Cardiff for one week to see how they do it!
7/ More TG4 type documentaries on RTE 'in Irish' (with subtitles) ...........

Basically, the root causes need to be tackled as to why so many Irish people despise the Irish language ~ and why this fear of Irish is being passed onto their Children & their Childrens Children. Lets face it, as things currently stand, "Eighteen years & hundreds of hours of Irish lessons in Primary & Secondary for each & every child in the State is a total & abusive waste of time"

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

I'll take it as a 'given' that the teaching of the Irish language in the Republic has failed miserably since the foundation of the State, with just 3% of the population fluent in the language there must be some fundemental reasons for its abysmal showing ................

3% speak it daily at home, not 3% are fluent

LordSutch

And ....................

What do you think of the Recovery Plan?

SkepticOne

I think there has to be some sort of clarification of the goals of Irish language policy in Ireland. Irish has been taught for decades from the begining of primary school to the very end of secondary. Exactly to what end?

The result is:
1. some people who are reasonably proficient in the language.
2. other people who resent having had to sit through classes in it and
3. more people (probably the majority) who are indifferent.

What was the point of all this? Even in the first group, although these people may know the language well only a very small number of that group will speak it on a day to day basis. They may feel they have been enriched in some way, but you can be educationally enriched in many ways. Maybe there should be more music or art taught. This would also be enriching.

I think everyone, including those who want to see a revival of the language, know that the current policies are pointless and wrong and insofar as reviving the language is concerned, counter-productive. I think it is just cowardice. No politician wants to get involved in rationalising the system for fear of a sentimental backlash so the pointless depressing system continues.

Either cure the patient or turn off the artificial life-support system.

Grudaire

I did leave out a bit of your comment there!

Camelot wrote: »

Recovery plan;

1/ Make Irish 'non compulsary' in Secondary School.
2/ Give the Parents the 'Option' of Irish lessons for Primary School.
3/ Make Irish lessons 'Fun Lessons' in Schools (to attract pupils)!
4/ Bring the Irish language into the Dail (tentatively) )
5/ Throw out the current Irish syllabus in Primary & Sceondary Schools.
6/ Send a linguistics 'Task Force' to Cardiff for one week to see how they do it!
7/ More TG4 type documentaries on RTE 'in Irish' (with subtitles) ...........

Basically, the root causes need to be tackled as to why so many Irish people despise the Irish language ~ and why this fear of Irish is being passed onto their Children & their Childrens Children. Lets face it, as things currently stand, "Eighteen years & hundreds of hours of Irish lessons in Primary & Secondary for each & every child in the State is a total & abusive waste of time"

Hmmm:

1/ Compulsary up to third year I think, then optional
2/ Primary schools should be bi-lingual, with teachers whipped into shape. I did hear of a trial run of a specific Irish teacher in Primary Schools to deal with the lack of Irish of many teachers, maybe introduce that as well?
3/ Hmmmm - fun and lessons are truely different things
4/ Feck it Bring it back, if anyone speaks in Irish - ALL replys must be in Irish, and visa versa
5/ Could help alright
6/ Another comitay? However yes that is true
7/ As long as TG4 are the ones who make the documentaries, the difference in quality of documentaries between the stations is mad

I do like the ideas overall, need a bit of honing so that it'd work I think though.


Has anyone seen 'An Gaelgeoir nocht' from TG4?

Permabear

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LordSutch

Sad thing is Cliste, nothing is going to happen, and I suspect that people will be having conversations like this in twenty years time

Grudaire

donegalfella wrote: »

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I asked you for these facts/figures earlier...

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

Sad thing is Cliste, nothing is going to happen, and I suspect that people will be having conversations like this in twenty years time

Hmmm true. Where's that political party that boards was going to set up!?

Permabear

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P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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There is a conflict between these two comments.

Permabear

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Mr.Micro

Camelot wrote: »

I'll take it as a 'given' that the teaching of the Irish language in the Republic has failed miserably since the foundation of the State, with just 3% of the population fluent in the language there must be some fundemental reasons for its abysmal showing ................

Recovery plan;

1/ Make Irish 'non compulsary' in Secondary School.
2/ Give the Parents the 'Option' of Irish lessons for Primary School.
3/ Make Irish lessons 'Fun Lessons' in Schools (to attract pupils)!
4/ Bring the Irish language into the Dail (tentatively) )
5/ Throw out the current Irish syllabus in Primary & Sceondary Schools.
6/ Send a linguistics 'Task Force' to Cardiff for one week to see how they do it!
7/ More TG4 type documentaries on RTE 'in Irish' (with subtitles) ...........

Basically, the root causes need to be tackled as to why so many Irish people despise the Irish language ~ and why this fear of Irish is being passed onto their Children & their Childrens Children. Lets face it, as things currently stand, "Eighteen years & hundreds of hours of Irish lessons in Primary & Secondary for each & every child in the State is a total & abusive waste of time"

That's a good plan Camelot.

Make anything cumpulsory in Ireland and the population will defy it and go against it. Cunning is needed and you are spot on there.

SkepticOne

Cliste wrote: »

1/ Compulsary up to third year I think, then optional

I would agree that it should not be compulsory up to the end of secondary school. As you proceed through your education, there needs to more of an emphasis towards what is practical, what you will actually need when you leave. Some may think it unfortunate, but the reality is you don't need Irish to survive in Ireland or indeed anywhere else.

Mr.Micro

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would agree that it should not be compulsory up to the end of secondary school. As you proceed through your education, there needs to more of an emphasis towards what is practical, what you will actually need when you leave. Some may think it unfortunate, but the reality is you don't need Irish to survive in Ireland or indeed anywhere else.

Plus one could learn another subject that would be more useful instead of being forced to learn something that is often resented/hated by students and of little use to most, despite the fact that it is our heritage. It should be non compulsory.

dolliemix

donegalfella wrote: »

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- nobody is shipped off to the Gaeltacht. People go by choice.

- Every student in this country is provided with teaching of at least one foreign language. It is the individual's choice to pursue it beyond that.

Basically, every individual student in this country has the opportunity to learn the foreign language within our education system, and from there, visit the country and practice the language if they so choose to.

I do agree with you though, that we are a modern, internationalist and cosmopolitan country - and whether you like it or not - a growing number of young parents and young people outside of Gaeltacht areas are embracing the Irish language by choice.

Cos Irish is cool :cool: