Making the future of Irish multi-lingual.

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

Did you by an chance go to a gaeltacht in this time? If you had done so you would see that they are just ordinary people who speak a different language to you.

Actually, funny you should mention this as I once did and in a local pub overheard a number of the locals speaking in a different language to me; German.

None of those languages are by definition alive. They are not spoken as a living working language.

Oh, so we've gone from a living language, in your first post, to a living working language?

Thats crap and again insulting to Irish speakers. Its included to reflect the fact that its a spoken european language.

Then perhaps we should include Ladin, Friulian, Bavarian, Galician, Flemish or Catalan to the list. No, feel free to get up on your high cappail, but the only ones who have benefited are those in the Irish language industry.

The Irish language is still alive inspite of poor alocation of Finances.

You missed the point I made; the Irish language is still 'alive' only because of this allocation of Finances.

Again you are insulting to Irish speakers. You seemed to ahve learned a hatred for Irish somewhere.

Not at all. But I have a hatred for paying for the Galegores.

English is not the native language of Ireland.

Neither is Irish if you go back far enough.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

I'd be surprised if it is spoken by even 3 percent of the Irish people. Official statistics on Irish language use tend to be vastly overstated—as documented by Reg Hindley in his book The Death of the Irish Language.

Was Reg an Irish speaker himself?

Let's see—on TG4 tomorrow night I can watch My Super Sweet 16, The Hills, Pimp My Ride, Without a Trace, One Tree Hill, and The OC. The only "prism" I see here is that of commercial American television. How does showing Pimp My Ride and The OC promote "radical and lateral thinking"?

What can you watch tonight?

Thinking through another language does improve lateral thinking as you have more than one angle to an idea and may see more than through the lens of one language.

With greater justification, I could say exactly the same thing about the self-styled "Gaelgoir" who goes around berating others for speaking a "foreign tongue."

That is not the character of the typical Gaelgoir as you imply, It seems to be the character of the typical hate fuelled gaelgoir basher though.

When you can show me that Ireland has a pantheon of artists, composers, writers, architects, and intellectuals to rival those of Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Austria, and Spain, I will accept your point.

One average those countries are 11 times more populous than Ireland.
More irrational Ireland/Irish bashing.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Actually, funny you should mention this as I once did and in a local pub overheard a number of the locals speaking in a different language to me; German.

So you were never in the gaeltacht and your "opinions" on Irish speakers are therefore based on prejudice and not fact.

Oh, so we've gone from a living language, in your first post, to a living working language?

Just an explanation to you as to what a living language actually means.

Then perhaps we should include Ladin, Friulian, Bavarian, Galician, Flemish or Catalan to the list.

Flemish, Catalan, Euskadi, certainly.

No, feel free to get up on your high cappail, but the only ones who have benefited are those in the Irish language industry.

Again the unnecessary berration of a language revealing a learned hatred which explains the irrational viewpoints.

You missed the point I made; the Irish language is still 'alive' only because of this allocation of Finances.

Not at all. But I have a hatred for paying for the Galegores.

Now were getting somewhere: you hate paying for Gaelgoirs? Not you hate wasting money on a dead language.

You hate people who speak Irish? Why?

Neither is Irish if you go back far enough

There is no records of previous languages although some obviously existed.
All our placenames and townlands are in Gaelic as are many of the geological features found in Ireland.

Permabear

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asdasd

One average those countries are 11 times more populous than Ireland.

And not only that, imperial powers. Lets have a thought experiment here a what if: imagine that the UK is invaded by the Spanish Armada and Spanish becomes the lingua Franca, and works its way down the classes, even after the Spanish are later defeated.

The rest of the history is the same, if delayed.

So the UK starts an empire in the US, and spreads Spanish, not English. This makes Spanish the lingua franca of the world, North and South America - India, lots of Africa etc. How much literature is now in English? Not Jane Austen, for sure.

English still exists, and has no R(eceived) P(ronounciation) but is regional - Yorkshire acents, West Country accents. it is the language of the poor, the "backward", the nationalist.

In this case is there any great literature produced in English. Clearly not, but Shakespeare has still existed, and unless translated, is considered backward and forgotten.

Flann O'Brien wrote in Irish and English, his Myles na gCopaleen columns in particular had both. He could have written his books in Irish, and written them as well, but it would not be so well received, because literature, and literary might is related to imperial and economic power

Irish has the medieval Irish heroic legends and sagas etc. I have met Chinese people who knew Irish myths and legends, so powerful are they. And poetry, well thousands of bards ( more than the English) most of whom are forgotten but any who could be as good as the best English poet. But forgotten.

Victors make history, and the language of the victors victorious too.

asdasd

Not at all. But I have a hatred for paying for the Galegores.

They might also hate paying for the other offical language were they as bigoted and close minded - however they tend to be bi-lingual.

Neither is Irish if you go back far enough.

Irish probably is indigenous, certainly been around Ireland longer than English in England. And not as long as Welsh, or Scots Gaelic in the UK.

On that subject how come I dont see Welsh signs in London? At heathrow, or St. Pancreas? On the way in, and out?

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

So you were never in the gaeltacht and your "opinions" on Irish speakers are therefore based on prejudice and not fact.

I just said I had been in the Gaeltacht and described what I witnessed there. Is this another one of your misunderstandings?

I have also known people who grew up in the Gaeltacht, many of whom had only cupla focal themselves. One, I remember, recounted how her family had an inspector round one evening who essentially fed them responses so that he could put them down as being Irish speakers.

Just an explanation to you as to what a living language actually means.

But not what you originally said. You changed your definition only after I challenged it.

Flemish, Catalan, Euskadi, certainly.

Why not Friulian? There's more fluent speakers of that language than Irish.

Again the unnecessary berration of a language revealing a learned hatred which explains the irrational viewpoints.

It is not unnecessary, and I have every right to berate it - I'm paying for it after all.

Now were getting somewhere: you hate paying for Gaelgoirs? Not you hate wasting money on a dead language.

How does the inclusion of one of those statements exclude the other?

You hate people who speak Irish? Why?

I never said that. I said that I hate paying for the Gaelgoirs, which for me are that sub-culture of Irish society who have built an industry around the language, funded by tax Euros and achieving nothing other than the perpetuation of said industry.

If anything, as I have already stated, they are the ones who have harmed the language the most, turning it into an elitist fantasy, more interested in maintaining jobs for the boys than genuinely tackling it's decline.

There is no records of previous languages although some obviously existed.
All our placenames and townlands are in Gaelic as are many of the geological features found in Ireland.

So the guys that the Celts displaced in Ireland just used sign language then?

asdasd

So the guys that the Celts displaced in Ireland just used sign language then?

? Sign language?

EDIT:

Nobody displaced anybody. The evidence is that the people of Dingle are the descendents of the people who lived their after the ice age.

Permabear

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ChocolateSauce

The Corinthian wrote: »

I just said I had been in the Gaeltacht and described what I witnessed there. Is this another one of your misunderstandings?

I have also known people who grew up in the Gaeltacht, many of whom had only cupla focal themselves. One, I remember, recounted how her family had an inspector round one evening who essentially fed them responses so that he could put them down as being Irish speakers.

To add something a little more helpful related to the above, I'd like to share my experiences of the Gaeltacht. I spent a weekend in a town on the North-West coast of Donegal. It was in the Gaeltacht, all the signs on all the buildings and streets were in Irish and only Irish; there was hardly an English word to be seen. This town, I was told by the guy I was staying with, received state money for being a Gaeltacht. Not one person spoke Irish. I'm sure they probably could, but they didn't.

Take it how you will, but this is just a first hand account of how I think Irish is doomed.

asdasd

But our educational system gives pride of place to the teaching of Irish, so that our students can read our national epic about cattle rustling and the autobiography of an illiterate peasant.

The national epic about cattle rustling is no more, or less, a saga than the greek sagas, or Beowolf. And, in fact, thought in universities around the world. The Irish myths are more complete than the English, and most European cycles. Many Irish myths precede English stories etc. as Diarmuid and Grainne precede Lancelot and Geuinveve, and Tristan and Iseult.

e could be giving our students the skills to appreciate those achievements—to read Proust, Flaubert, Kafka, and other European writers in the original, for instance.

We can learn Isben anyway. No need not to have two non-English languages, and Irish ( which I agree should be optional), in school. However I doubt the "I couldnt stand Irish in school" probably couldn't understand any language anywhere, besides the one they were born too - and that probably means Dan Brown at best.

Irish is no more imposed than English, or the one foreign language you were also forced to learn. If you couldn't get into one, you probably couldn't get into t'other, except as a business tool - to order a menu at best. Love of languages is either there, or it isnt. If it is you read the Irish originals of the stories I mentioned you read some fine literature in the original, and you can also ( imagine!) read Ibsen.

The problem here is that the libertarian ideology of autonomous economic actors, culturally bereft, is never going to be impressed by any language that isnt functional. Ibsen is a red-herring. Irish is not good for bidness.

Permabear

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asdasd

So you believe that the Táin Bó Cúailnge is on a literary par with the Iliad or the Odyssey? What universities are teaching this?

Sure. The impact of a fable on history is not related to it's brilliance, which by necessity has to be appreciated in the original language. Like the greek sagas is has mystical, supernatural, and heroic elements. And is wider known than just Ireland - The Decembritsts released an EP detailing the story recently for instance.

In any case, Irish mythology did not spring up ex nihilo; it, too, has its influences and sources.

It was hardly influence by a non-existent language like English. The first record of that type of story in Europe (favourite warrior betrays king with Queen or Betrothed) is D & G.

Anyway, I think Irish should be optional, to shut y'ez all up, if nothing else.

The Corinthian

asdasd wrote: »

Nobody displaced anybody. The evidence is that the people of Dingle are the descendents of the people who lived their after the ice age.

That could well be, but those people who lived there after the ice age did not speak a Celtic language:

The first settlers were unlikely to have spoken a Celtic language but possibly a tongue related to the unique Basque language.

http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/printarticle.php?id=7817

That the Celts that followed, intermarried and absorbed this pre-Celtic culture is irrelevant to the question of language - as my point was that this culture was displaced and that the original language of Ireland was not Irish or any ancestor of Irish. Languages and cultures change. Sometimes they evolve and sometimes they are displaced.

The reason that such a point is so important is that this myth of Irish being the language of Ireland is in fact counter productive to the language's survival. It creates a type of nationalistic fantasy, that somehow it is supernaturally alive and well, when in reality it has been in terminal decline for a long time.

I don't think we even have independent, objective figures as to the level of fluency. Present data is collected by government departments that are benefit from the numbers being kept up. Even in a census, we are simply asked to assess ourselves rather than being objectively measured.

I mean, there are (as of 2006) supposed to be 538,283 everyday speakers of Irish. Even if you remove the population of the Gaeltacht areas, 91,862, you're still talking about about over 10% of the rest of the population. Where are these people? Where are these everyday speakers outside of the Gaeltacht? Seriously, who are they trying to kid?

Soldie

I'm amazed that this is still going backwards and forwards like this. T Runner's points are so ill-conceived that they hardly warrant rebuttal, but alas, I am bored.

It seems as though his (and others arguing similarly) arguments stem from an inferiority complex - in the words of Tommy Tiernan; "What does it mean to be Irish? It means we're not English!". As Irish people, speaking English does not make us any less Irish than we would be if we spoke Irish. Why? Because English has been the number one language here for just under 200 years. English now is our native language. The causes for the death of Irish are completely irrelvant - the reality is that we have gotten to a point where only 3% of our population speaks it on a daily basis, and the vast majority of Irish people do not care about Irish at all, as evidenced by TG4 and Raidió na Gaeltachta's pathetic listnership figures, coupled with the fact that practically nobody uses the language on a daily basis, save for a few with a smattering of 'ceol agus craic' phrases.

Now we can appease the armchair republicans (and forgive my assumptions, but the majority of the people in this thread arguing for the cultural homogenisation of the 'Irish identity' by means of forcing Irish upon us seem to be doing so only to fit their political agendas) by continuously chucking money into the bottomless pit that is Irish-language incentives, at the taxpayers' expense - or we can face up to the reality. There is simply no justification for the compulsory teaching of Irish in our schools, and I think this point is more valid now than ever before, as we live in a time with a chronic need to cut spending, and at a time when emigrating to mainland Europe in search of work might be a nessicity for many school and university leavers.

Arguments about the quality of Irish literature or likewise are all quite irrelevant. The major point is that a very small minority of us use the language on a daily basis, and I doubt many more speak it fluently as a second language. Most Irish people do not speak Irish, nor do they care about it. However sad it may be that we have reached this point is also irrelevant. End the nationalist policy of compulsory Irish - I think I've had just about enough of my government trying to look out for me!

For what it's worth, I strongly believe that not only making Irish a voluntary subject, but overhauling the secondary school syllabus will in fact boost the language far more than our current government's policies - I spoke better Irish in primary school than I did after 6 years of secondary school!

asdasd

That the Celts that followed, intermarried and absorbed this pre-Celtic culture is irrelevant to the question of language - as my point was that this culture was displaced and that the original language of Ireland was not Irish or any ancestor of Irish. Languages and cultures change. Sometimes they evolve and sometimes they are displaced.

Actually the article you published points out that we came from Spain, which is what Irish sources, in Irish say anyway.

The Lebor Gabála (Book of Invasions - probably first written in the second half of the 11th century AD) describes the origin of the Gaelic people. They descended from Goídel Glas, a Scythian who was present at the fall of the Tower of Babel, and Scota, a daughter of a pharaoh of Egypt. Two branches of their descendants left Egypt and Scythia at the time of the Exodus of Moses, and after a period of wandering the shores of the Mediterranean arrived in the Iberian Peninsula, where they settled after several battles. One of them, Breogán, built a tower at a place called Brigantia (probably in the coast of Galicia, near A Coruña (Corunna), which was then "Brigantia" and where a Celtic tribe called "Brigantes" is attested in ancient times- see Tower of Hercules) from the top of which he, or his son Íth, first saw Ireland.[1]

Myth, yes, but they claim Spainish origin. EDIT: the Moses thing is possibly a Christian addition.

The reason that such a point is so important is that this myth of Irish being the language of Ireland is in fact counter productive to the language's survival.

Frankly even if the geneis of Irish was a celtic language from 1000BC, rather than the original proto-Basque ( if that was really spoken in Ireland) from thousands of years before it would still resonate with nationalist Irish people. Heck the English like their recent Germanic hodge-podge, and the French like their recent Latin vulgarization.

asdasd

It seems as though his (and others arguing similarly) arguments stem from an inferiority complex - in the words of Tommy Tiernan;

The clear inferiority complex is from the anti-Irish brigade. Read Donegal chap again.

and forgive my assumptions, but the majority of the people in this thread arguing for the cultural homogenisation of the 'Irish identity' by means of forcing Irish upon us seem to be doing so only to fit their political agendas

I am not a Republican, I dont want a united Ireland. However it is rather natural for a people to preserve their language where possible, ask any First Nation member. In the interests of world multiculturalism it would be nice to preserve all lanhuages, the real homogenity is hardly the belief that there should be two offical languages in Ireland, but that there should be one. And that belief is the belief of the English Firsters.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

I have no idea, and I hardly think it matters. He is a former senior lecturer in geography at Bradford University.

That may be true, but I'm by no means opposing multilingualism. I've already said earlier in this thread that we'd all be better off if we were better versed in modern European languages.

You are opposing multilingualism. Bilingual is multilingual.

Why would we be anyway? I speak French and German and a splattering of Spanish (having the Irish was a great help in learning other languages). Helps me on holidays thats about it. How many people will actually work in these countries and need to converse in those languages here.
Having Irish helps me converse with all the people of this Island and allows me for example to understand our placenames, something which French or English for that matter wont.

The population of England in the age of William Shakespeare, Edmund Spenser, Christopher Marlowe, John Donne, Philip Sidney, Thomas Wyatt, et al, was around 3 million.

Still a lot more populous than Ireland. Probably unfair to compare Ireland to large imperial powers who would have many more people in position to write literature (regardless of the language or nationality of the writer).
I think it is a latent inferiority complex that would make you believe such a negative groundless comment about a country which is not surprisingly your own.

The Corinthian

asdasd wrote: »

Actually the article you published points out that we came from Spain, which is what Irish sources, in Irish say anyway.

We're discussing language, not genetics. And Basque is not related to the Celtic language, it's not even Indo-European.

Frankly even if the geneis of Irish was a celtic language from 1000BC, rather than the original proto-Basque ( if that was really spoken in Ireland) from thousands of years before it would still resonate with nationalist Irish people. Heck the English like their recent Germanic hodge-podge, and the French like their recent Latin vulgarization.

Who cares? Looking at Soldie's post, I'd have to agree that we're going around in circles. My principle points are that the language has become a handy industry for those who speak it, paid for by the vast bulk of the population who do not. It's present promotion is more successful in creating employment for this industry than it is in promoting the language. And the language is dying.

I think it is a pity if Irish dies. I would like Ireland to be bilingual. I simply don't think that will happen if we cling to these fantasies that really only serve a gravy train for Gaelgores.

Year after year we hear the same fantastic claims how it's alive and well, or how some new initiative will promote it successfully. And yet, here we are again, doing our national equivalent of the Dead Parrot Sketch.

In English, I might add.

T runner

Soldie wrote: »

It seems as though his (and others arguing similarly) arguments stem from an inferiority complex - in the words of Tommy Tiernan; "What does it mean to be Irish? It means we're not English!". As Irish people, speaking English does not make us any less Irish than we would be if we spoke Irish.

Yes, but I am not trying to destroy the English language or stop people speaking English. I am suggesting we not throw a whole native language and all thet implies into the gutter for no other reason than that English is perceived as the superior language. It is those with this perception that hold the inferiority complex.

practically nobody uses the language on a daily basis, save for a few with a smattering of 'ceol agus craic' phrases.

That is not true. It may suit your argument but it has no basis in reality.
My Aunty set up the first Irish doctors organisation. They had a get together about issues important to them. Iassure you there was no ceol agus craic, and the outcome was to benefit many people not just Irish speakers.

(They are not armchair republicans or members of the IRA BTW)

Now we can appease the armchair republicans (and forgive my assumptions, but the majority of the people in this thread arguing for the cultural homogenisation of the 'Irish identity' by means of forcing Irish upon us seem to be doing so only to fit their political agendas)

The classic put down. If you defend the Irish language you are probably a sympathiser to the provisional IRA. That is quite a ridiculous and insulting and ignorant comment. Are you a member of The BNP for putting down Irish? How do like that? x£###! What a stupid argument!

Most Irish people do not speak Irish, nor do they care about it.

Why have Irish speaking schools got the largest attendance in over 100 years. Most new pupils have non fluent Irish parents.

I spoke better Irish in primary school than I did after 6 years of secondary school!

Well thats true it is taught poorly in secondary school. There is also a large variation in standards in primary school which can make it more difficult for larger secondary classes.

The Corinthian

T runner wrote: »

Why would we be anyway? I speak French and German and a splattering of Spanish (having the Irish was a great help in learning other languages). Helps me on holidays thats about it. How many people will actually work in these countries and need to converse in those languages here.
Having Irish helps me converse with all the people of this Island and allows me for example to understand our placenames, something which French or English for that matter wont.

What you have written is bordering on delusional.

All the "people of this Island" speak English. If they can't it's not because they can only speak Irish.

Ireland relies upon trade with (and tourism from) other nations, so you don't need to "work in these countries" to find languages such as French and German useful.

The best way to understand place names is to look it up in a book, as a translation alone will not explain why a place is called something. All of which is before you have to really ask yourself why you would go to the trouble of learning a language just so you can then understand place names?

K4t

T runner wrote: »

Why have Irish speaking schools got the largest attendance in over 100 years. Most new pupils have non fluent Irish parents.


Well thats true it is taught poorly in secondary school. .

Because Irish is compulsory for the LC!

I went to the largest primary school in my town (around 80 pupils in my year). It wasn't an Irish speaking school and now there is only 1 student from that 80 doing higher level irish for the LC!
It's all about exams, they don't give a f**k about the language.

Poorly! It's a calamity! And anyone who says otherwise is quite frankly deluded.

dlofnep

Ok, I skipped from page 2 to page 12 due to time constraints, so I'm not sure what arguments have been made. I'd just like to add my own two cents.

Firstly, in any poll ever taken - the is an overwhelming majority of the people who back the support of the Irish language.

Now with that being said - there are two problems with the Irish language.

Education

I've said this time and time again, but not enough focus is spent on the conversational aspect of Gaeilge in school, and many teachers are not qualified to teach the language. I've met a few primary school teachers who have less Gaeilge than myself, and that's shocking considering I only picked up the language myself a little over a year ago.

If teachers are not qualified, then they can hard teacher beyond basic conversational Irish. I think seperate classes, should be hosted for grammar related issues/poetry and the rest, and then another class that focuses categorically on conversational Irish - which is afterall, the most important aspect. With conversational classes, children will actually have the ability to speak the language, and will then subsequently have the opportunity to use it in every-day life. But there should be provisions and places for kids to have that opportunity, which I will expand on later.

Gaeltachtaí

As it stands, we are dependant far too much on na Gaeltachtaí for maintaining and upholding the existence of Gaeilge. This can't continue if we want to ensure the survivability of the Irish language.

Efforts must be made for Gaeilge to be used outside of na Gaeltachtaí. Large towns and cities should all have Gaeilge centres (similar to Cultúrlann in Belfast) where people can learn Gaeilge, or use Gaeilge without people looking at them as if they are speaking polish. Such a place, where Gaeilge is the operating language would help people use the language without fear of being chastised. Something as simple as ordering food as gaeilge is a nice start.. The menus and so forth have phrases as gaeilge in order to help you order.. Little things like this all help.

I mean, all Cultúrlann really is is a restaurant, and shop/book shop. It has the facilities for cheap Gaeilge classes. If someone like Belfast can do it, without any government support - then we can do it in the 26 counties. I spent €240 for a few Gaeilge classes - for me as a student, it's not feasible to keep doing courses at that price, as I couldn't afford it. Cheap or free classes should be available for adults to learn the language, or for teenagers to learn it if they so wish after school or on weekends.

In summary - Conversational Irish will lead to children with the ability to speak the language. Language centres in every major town and city will lead to people having the opportunity to wean themselves into using the language, or learning the language. We cannot depend on the Gaeltachts to maintain the language.

Sin é.

The Corinthian

dlofnep wrote: »

Ok, I skipped from page 2 to page 12 due to time constraints, so I'm not sure what arguments have been made. I'd just like to add my own two cents.

There's always one...

dlofnep

The Corinthian wrote: »

There's always one...

I'm sure theres more than one that doesn't have time to read through 12 pages of a thread. :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure theres more than one that doesn't have time to read through 12 pages of a thread. :rolleyes:

They have the good sense of not injecting their two cents in the middle of a discussion though.

dlofnep

The Corinthian wrote: »

They have the good sense of not injecting their two cents in the middle of a discussion though.

I'm well within my rights to add my two cents to the end of a debate, especially when I'm not responding to anyone in particular. Don't dictate to me what thread I can and cannot post in. I'll post in whatever thread I see fit, especially when I feel I have something valid to add to it. Got that champ?

As if everyone has the time to read every page of every single thread they post on.

P. Breathnach

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm well within my rights to add my two cents to the end of a debate, especially when I'm not responding to anyone in particular. Don't dictate to me what thread I can and cannot post in. I'll post in whatever thread I see fit, especially when I feel I have something valid to add to it. Got that champ?

As if everyone has the time to read every page of every single thread they post on.

When I read your opening comments on your first post, I decided not to read the rest of it. If you can't be arsed to consider other people's opinions, I can't be arsed to consider yours.

dlofnep

P. Breathnach wrote: »

When I read your opening comments on your first post, I decided not to read the rest of it. If you can't be arsed to consider other people's opinions, I can't be arsed to consider yours.

And I care because?

I was highlighting that not everybody has the time to read every single page of every thread, but are still well within their rights to add a post to it.

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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The majority of the public supports it. It is our language. Why shouldn't we preserve it?

donegalfella wrote: »

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According to you. We have two languages. Irish, our national language and english our second language by virtue of our constitution.

donegalfella wrote: »

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The people are happy to fund Irish. Irish should be mandatory for everybody.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Why should we learn foreign languages? We already have the most wide-spoken one in English. Let's focus on our national language.