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UK Nurse faces the sack after offering to pray for sick patient

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Comments

  • #302
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch wrote: »
    She was bringing her religious rituals into her professional life, so yes, she was certainly overstepping the boundary.

    It's pettiness like this that seems to suggest to me that people such as myself and others are going to have to let our opposition to such ultra-secular nonsense if this is the genuine way that people are going to continue.

    The situation in this case, before you turn it into a red herring concerning political hate speech, is a simple one like this:

    Nurse: Do you want me to pray for you?
    Patient: No.

    That's all it is, and it's been blown out of proportion time and time again. If this is what "secularism" means to you, I don't want it anywhere in the political system that I live under or directly involving my life.


  • #303
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    PDN wrote: »
    I recently visited a church member in hospital and prayed for them. Another patient then asked me if I would pray for them too. In the end every patient in the room requested prayer. As I was leaving a doctor stopped me, and I thought maybe I was in trouble for breaching some hospital policy. He said, "Thank God you came in. I could see some of those patients desperately needed someone to pray for them, but I thought I'd lose my job if I mentioned it."

    To be honest, it seems like what those patients needed was friends/family to be there and, if the patient wanted, pray for them. Many hospitals also have a chaplain service so patients can request to receive communion, have prayers said etc.

    I have yet to come across a situation where a patient "desperately needed someone to pray for them" but Ill keep my eyes open.

    Bottom line - if a patient wants prayers said for them, they should ask the staff. To assume and ask everyone if they want prayer is asking for trouble.


  • #304
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    Beautiful... one aspect that maybe has not been mentioned is that people are getting scared to ask for prayer in this persecution?

    Because of the hassle that folk are getting.

    This is why pastors of all kinds and Nuns are needed. To witness with the authority we are given; to open that door to the healing of soul prayer brings and draw all to Jesus.

    Which is what we are called to do

    I was reminded of this y;day many times when out shopping. A butcher in ASDA asking for prayer....

    it awes and humbles.

    Originally Posted by PDN viewpost.gif
    I recently visited a church member in hospital and prayed for them. Another patient then asked me if I would pray for them too. In the end every patient in the room requested prayer. As I was leaving a doctor stopped me, and I thought maybe I was in trouble for breaching some hospital policy. He said, "Thank God you came in. I could see some of those patients desperately needed someone to pray for them, but I thought I'd lose my job if I mentioned it."
    To be honest, it seems like what those patients needed was friends/family to be there and, if the patient wanted, pray for them. Many hospitals also have a chaplain service so patients can request to receive communion, have prayers said etc.

    I have yet to come across a situation where a patient "desperately needed someone to pray for them" but Ill keep my eyes open.

    Bottom line - if a patient wants prayers said for them, they should ask the staff. To assume and ask everyone if they want prayer is asking for trouble.


  • #305
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    Cannot take this seriously.

    Read what PDN says..

    And my reply also....

    SOme years ago I was sitting by the car on a beach, knitting.

    A lady nearby started chatting; the handwork is always a focal point of approach, and we sell our handwork to feed our babies and homeless.

    Something made me ask how she was; emerged she had recently had a mastectomy; had to have a scan the next day and was terrified. Claustrophobic...

    She asked for prayers; then I simply asked if she would like me to pray with her.

    She felt the fear draining away as that happened.

    You could see the tension fade.

    Prayer has healing and a dimension that no human can give.


    Blessings and prayers.
    MatthewVII wrote: »
    To be honest, it seems like what those patients needed was friends/family to be there and, if the patient wanted, pray for them. Many hospitals also have a chaplain service so patients can request to receive communion, have prayers said etc.

    I have yet to come across a situation where a patient "desperately needed someone to pray for them" but Ill keep my eyes open.

    Bottom line - if a patient wants prayers said for them, they should ask the staff. To assume and ask everyone if they want prayer is asking for trouble.


  • #306
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    sorella wrote: »
    Claustrophobic...
    I'm not quite sure what you mean with this word
    sorella wrote:
    She asked for prayers; then I simply asked if she would like me to pray with her.

    Precisely, she asked for prayers and got what she wanted. This is the way it should be. Consider the difference with you walking along the beach asking everyone if they wanted you to pray for them.
    sorella wrote:
    Prayer has healing and a dimension that no human can give.

    Try telling that to the parents who's kid died of DKA because they tried to heal her with prayer


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  • #307
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    MatthewVII wrote: »
    Precisely, she asked for prayers and got what she wanted. This is the way it should be. Consider the difference with you walking along the beach asking everyone if they wanted you to pray for them.

    Unfortunately the rights to freedom of speech, and the rights to freedom of conscience are given to every person. It's the same as encountering evangelists on the street something I have done on many occasions from many different religions interesting stuff to just speak to some of these people.


  • #308
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Another thing I think is that if a person thought praying would do any good, they'd pray anyway, with the patient's permission and knowledge or without.

    I seem to be virtually alone among the atheist crowd here...which is kind of perplexing. If I was the kind of person to "fall into line" I'd probably wonder if I was wrong about my thoughts on it.

    Oh well, herding cats you know!


  • #309
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    Another thing I think is that if a person thought praying would do any good, they'd pray anyway, with the patient's permission and knowledge or without.

    I seem to be virtually alone among the atheist crowd here...which is kind of perplexing. If I was the kind of person to "fall into line" I'd probably wonder if I was wrong about my thoughts on it.

    Oh well, herding cats you know!

    I think there were one or two others, so you don't have to feel too isolated:) Below is one of them.
    sink wrote: »

    I see no need to legislate or to punish the nurse, what she did was completely harmless. If I was in the patients position and the nurse asked me would I like her to pray for me I would tell her that I was an atheist but if she felt so inclined I would have no objections to her saying a prayer. So long as she doesn't expect me to partake in any fashion it's no skin off my back and might make her feel a little better. Honestly some of you get so caught up in frivilous conflicts, live and let live is all I say.

    Careful though guys, they may revoke your membership:)


  • #310
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    The idea that the question "can I pray for you?" is a ritual in itself is just ridiculous.
    Are you saying that an offer to pray is not religious?


  • #311
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's pettiness like this that seems to suggest to me that people such as myself and others are going to have to let our opposition to such ultra-secular nonsense [...] The situation in this case, before you turn it into a red herring concerning political hate speech, is a simple one [...] That's all it is, and it's been blown out of proportion time and time again. If this is what "secularism" means to you, I don't want it anywhere in the political system that I live under or directly involving my life.
    Well, it's been explained quite a few times in this thread that this is the sharp end of the wedge. I suspect that don't like what happened to Petrie (though I disagree with what she did) any more than you do. However, she signed a legal contract saying she wouldn't do this and she failed to abide by the terms of this contract, twice.

    More pointedly, Petrie, like you, seems entirely unable to understand that some people can find the religious views of other people offensive. As I said before, this is not to say that such people are right to take offense, or that the people causing the offense intend to cause offense, but simply to recognize that like political opinions, openly-declared religious opinions can cause problems.

    And in the interest of minimizing conflict and troublesome situations arising, everybody therefore agrees to leave religion at the door, along with political opinions, trade-union opinions and generally, everything except the medical advice and medical services that medical staff are supposed to deliver.


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  • #312
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    robindch wrote: »
    And in the interest of minimizing conflict and troublesome situations arising, everybody therefore agrees to leave religion at the door, along with political opinions, trade-union opinions and generally, everything except the medical advice and medical services that medical staff are supposed to deliver.

    Are 'You' are happy with this?


  • #313
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Are 'You' are happy with this?
    I would much prefer that this kind of thing wouldn't have to be part of any job contract, and that one could trust professionals to leave controversial non-medical opinions at the door, but experience shows that one can't.

    Hence, while explicitly requiring staff to avoid these controversial opinions is not a perfect solution, it is the one which seems to minimize conflict best.

    So, to answer your question, I'm not madly happy with it, but given human reality, it looks like it's the best that can be achieved.


  • #314
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    I seem to be virtually alone among the atheist crowd here...which is kind of perplexing. If I was the kind of person to "fall into line" I'd probably wonder if I was wrong about my thoughts on it.

    You're not really. All the atheists in my life that I've told this too think it is ridiculous as well. Some on this board seem to be extreme in their atheism.
    robindch wrote:
    Are you saying that an offer to pray is not religious?
    It is. It is not specifically religious. It is not evangelising. It is not an opinion, nor a source of conflict. It is not a ritual, which you claimed.


  • #315
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    No; I offered to pray with her as opposed to quietly praying later.awuietly


    Precisely, she asked for prayers and got what she wanted. This is the way it should be. Consider the difference with you walking along the beach asking everyone if they wanted you to pray for them.

    That did not happen in the case there is the fuss about; and we always get many requests for prayer.


    Try telling that to the parents who's kid died of DKA because they tried to heal her with prayer[/quote]

    That is a ridiculous example; please do not not insult the intelligence and caring of myself or others here. REALLY: we thought you more intelligent than this.


  • #316
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    You have no idea of the "job description" of a Christian. to use a phrase you may understand.

    Faith and integrity cannot be cast off like a coat; they are a part of us. period


    You say the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

    A case of lastworditis maybe?

    :rolleyes:


    Jesus is the last word as well as the first.
    robindch wrote: »
    Well, it's been explained quite a few times in this thread that this is the sharp end of the wedge. I suspect that don't like what happened to Petrie (though I disagree with what she did) any more than you do. However, she signed a legal contract saying she wouldn't do this and she failed to abide by the terms of this contract, twice.

    More pointedly, Petrie, like you, seems entirely unable to understand that some people can find the religious views of other people offensive. As I said before, this is not to say that such people are right to take offense, or that the people causing the offense intend to cause offense, but simply to recognize that like political opinions, openly-declared religious opinions can cause problems.

    And in the interest of minimizing conflict and troublesome situations arising, everybody therefore agrees to leave religion at the door, along with political opinions, trade-union opinions and generally, everything except the medical advice and medical services that medical staff are supposed to deliver.


  • #317
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    :)

    JimiTime wrote: »
    I think there were one or two others, so you don't have to feel too isolated:) Below is one of them.



    Careful though guys, they may revoke your membership:)


  • #318
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    Really! tautology reigns

    As you very well know.
    robindch wrote: »
    Are you saying that an offer to pray is not religious?


  • #319
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    catching up with blogs, here is this..

    http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2009/02/nazir-ali-tells-hospitals-to-remember.html

    Nursing Nuns taught Florence Nightingale all she knew..


  • #320
    MatthewVII
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 825 ✭✭✭MatthewVII


    sorella wrote: »
    catching up with blogs, here is this..

    http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2009/02/nazir-ali-tells-hospitals-to-remember.html

    I do enjoy this line

    "In his column he said that there was evidence that prayers and spiritual belief could have a positive impact on patients"

    1) There is no clear evidence. If there was he would have quoted it

    2) There is no clear evidence. If there was, he wouldn't use the ambiguous term "could"

    So this is a false claim, made with an uncertifiable basis designed to seduce the reader.
    sorella wrote:
    Nursing Nuns taught Florence Nightingale all she knew..

    They taught her about healthcare. This did not mean that because they were nuns that religion was the reason for their standard of care. Florence Nightingale's standard of care was good because she introduced basic measures in sanitation and infection control, not because she prayed for her patients.


  • #321
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Húrin wrote: »
    It is. It is not specifically religious. It is not evangelising. It is not an opinion, nor a source of conflict. It is not a ritual, which you claimed.
    I said that Petrie was "introducing religious rituals into her professional life" which I think describes an offer of prayer fairly well.

    If we can't agree that this is a religious act, then we're back to the perception issue that other posters are having which I mentioned here.


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  • #322
    sorella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭sorella


    Reporting this post as offensive and a personal attack.
    robindch wrote: »
    Ah, sorella, more finger-wagging, please!!


  • #323
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Húrin wrote: »
    You're not really. All the atheists in my life that I've told this too think it is ridiculous as well. Some on this board seem to be extreme in their atheism..

    But I am extreme in my anti-theism! I'd put myself in the upper 98th percentile of radical....this just doesn't bother me for some reason..:confused:


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