GSP alleged greasing discussion

Smellyirishman

Smellyirishman wrote: »

A big gob of vaseline all over your back, yes.

A left over residue of vaseline, I don't know (because I have no experience of it).

I can't imagine the amount that we're talking about having much of an effect when you consider how sweaty they get, but again, I don't grapple so maybe it does almost negate the rubber guard. (can anyone say from experience?)

I might roll this weekend without a shirt with a bit of vaseline on and get back to ya but there;s a good reason why it's used as a lubricant for various pastimes

agardiner22 wrote: »

There was hardly anything on the witchdoctors fingers but if thats what all the haters want to hold onto let them

How exactly do you know the quantity of vaseline on his fingers may I ask? I'm a massive GSP fan, I'm no hater, but the objective MMA fan in me has to ask the question.

The fights at this last UFC were pretty interesting. To me, Clay Guida won all three rounds against Nate Diaz and I was just surprised to see it being a split decision at the end; but that’s what can happen when you leave a fight in the judges’ hands. I though Karo Parysian lost his fight against Dong Hyun Kim, but Karo also looked sick like he had the flu or something. The Lyoto Machida fight was a little surprising, I thought he would win, but I didn’t think he’d be that dominant against Thiago Silva. I was also surprised by the final match, I thought BJ would have put on a better performance. BJ Penn is coming from a lighter weight class, but he took the fight at 170. That’s the bottom line. I knew it was going to come down to who had the better cardio and even at the end of the first round BJ looked tired. Now, on to what everybody is talking about, the greasing. I’m not the only one who has said that GSP felt greasy during a fight. I know Matt Serra has mentioned it and, even in their first fight, I think BJ said something. I’m not saying GSP did something wrong and I’m not saying that it would have changed any outcomes of any fights; but what I am saying is, for my last two fights against Georges, he felt greasy.

For the first time, one of our fighters who started out at the HIT Squad, has signed a contract with the UFC. This Saturday night (February 7th), Matt Veach (10-0) will be fighting in the UFC Fight Night event which will be free on Spike. -matt

From Matt Hughes.com

agardiner22

Deleted User wrote: »

I might roll this weekend without a shirt with a bit of vaseline on and get back to ya but there;s a good reason why it's used as a lubricant for various pastimes



How exactly do you know the quantity of vaseline on his fingers may I ask? I'm a massive GSP fan, I'm no hater, but the objective MMA fan in me has to ask the question.

http://mixedmartialartvideos.com/2009/02/02/gsp-greased-back-video/
look at the witchdoctors fingers in the first vid

and in the second the official wipes wat little went on there off.

Fozzy

Even if there wasn't any vaseline on his hand when he rubbed GSP's back, the fact that he didn't wipe his hand clean before doing that is against the rules

I've seen BJ's brother say that they don't want to use this as an excuse but they do want it looked at for the sake of future opponents of GSP

ginoginelli

Fozzy wrote: »

Even if there wasn't any vaseline on his hand when he rubbed GSP's back, the fact that he didn't wipe his hand clean before doing that is against the rules

I've seen BJ's brother say that they don't want to use this as an excuse but they do want it looked at for the sake of future opponents of GSP

lol at not wanting to use it as an excuse.

Thats exactly what they have made it sound like.

Fozzy

ginoginelli wrote: »

lol at not wanting to use it as an excuse.

Thats exactly what they have made it sound like.

How exactly? Post some quotes. They haven't even officially complained yet

It's some of his fans who are the ones making excuses

ginoginelli

Fozzy wrote: »

How exactly? Post some quotes. They haven't even officially complained yet

It's some of his fans who are the ones making excuses

“We just want to make sure it doesn’t happen again to someone else. It is not good for the sport. For their camp to be busted doing something bad like that, to be busted doing it and then to keep doing it after the referee had warned them… I respect Greg Jackson but to do something like that, his integrity has been compromised.” Valentino says of St. Pierre’s coach.

Valentino says that Jackson actually came to him after the fight and apologized for the alleged improper tactic. “He came to me and apologized for it, but to do it and then apologize after is a bit half hearted,” Valentino says.

Throughout the fight, St. Pierre successfully took Penn down and worked from inside the Jiu Jitsu world champion’s guard. Penn attempted to use a “high guard” where his legs would wrap high around the shoulders and head of St. Pierre in order to prevent him from posturing up and giving him space to strike or pass the guard.

St. Pierre was able to routinely slip past Penn’s grasp, land strikes and pass the guard, eventually bringing a stop to the bout after the fourth round. “His legs slid right off because of the grease on his head and back,” Valentino says. “I’m not trying to make excuses for BJ’s loss…he took a lot of hits and St. Pierre was the better man that night but the extra cheating is bad for the sport.”

Thats from Inside fighting. Sounds like an excuse to me.

Fozzy

Doesn't to me :pac:

ginoginelli

Fozzy wrote: »

Doesn't to me :pac:

*sighs* :pac:

ginoginelli

Heres a well thought out piece on bj apologists too.

''No matter the social circle, any iconic figure is bound to attract the various levels of revulsion and obsequiousness that comes from fandom. In Penn's case, the strange commixture of braggadocio, real accomplishment and failed promise has created a class of Penn fans unable to view him under sober terms. Rather than acknowledging the duality of Penn's career -- that is, acknowledging what he's actually achieved while candidly recognizing his very real failures -- they prefer to resort to the most tortured logic imaginable in concocting pretext after pretext for why Penn has not delivered on what so many have (overreachingly) claimed is his destiny.

The newest canard being bandied about is that St. Pierre's corner rubbed Vaseline on his back and shoulders between rounds and that the Vaseline constitutes "cheating" on the part of St. Pierre’s team (notice that no one is saying it changed the outcome of the fight). The charge is true in that the corner clearly committed wrongdoing, but it's not the least bit clear how much Vaseline was used nor how much it impacted the fight. Most importantly, a champion like Penn deserves better than to have his shortcomings constantly re-examined because fundamentalists cannot accept what must be a very bruising reality. ''

www.sherdog.com

Utopia Parkway

I don't think I've heard a single Penn fan say that he would have won the fight grease or no grease but the fact of the matter is that the Nevada state athletic commission had to enter the cage mid-fight once they saw what was going on and accusations of GSP being greased did not originate last Saturday night. It's been said before.

The spotlight is not on Penn here it is on the GSP camp to explain themselves. Maybe it was just human error on the night or maybe they were finally busted doing something they've been doing for ages. My feeling is they'll get a slap on the wrist and told to watch it in the future.

dunkamania

I am a massive BJ fan, but I am pretty sure that he would have lost the irregardless. BJ said so himself on his facebook page, although the comment isnt there anymore. The issue isnt who was the better man on the night, that was clearly GSP. I would also expect a rematch to go the same way.

While we dont know how much vaseline was on his back, we do know that there was some. This is completely unacceptable. GSP is responsible for inappropriate actions taken by his corner during a fight.

This story no longer has anything to do with BJ, its all about GSP now. Given that Matt Hughes, Mayhem Miller and Matt Serra have also come out and said that GSP appeared to be greased, there are serious questions that need to be answered.

pierrot

this is news to me but it did cross my mind during the fight. anyone remember the sakuraba fight in k-1 i think. he complained and i think it ended up as a NC

pierrot

link to above http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6q_wVodzFU

Fromvert

This is pretty dissappointing. I have to say though it didnt have any effect on the outcome of the fight but it does leave a sour taste because it is cheating no matter how you look at it.
There has to be repercussions but to who and how severe. A slap on the wrist for GSP and his corner, a fine or a banning for the cornermen? I can see Dana and Lorenzo banning Nurse and Jackson from cornering in the UFC. They will want to show a hard stance on this sort of behaviour. I dont believe GSP knew nothing about it and I dont think it was an accident with Hughes,Serra,Miller,Sherk and now BJ all complaining about GSP being greasy. This has to be taken seriously.

Has GSP's camp said anything about it yet?

rovert

BJ hints about retirement to Hawaii TV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjV5wcH1pQY

dunkamania

All this is kind of depressing......:(

http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2009/02/04/bj-penn-submits-formal-request-for-an-investigation-to-the-nevada-commission/


B.J. Penn submits formal request for an investigation by the Nevada Commission

February 4, 2009 by Sam Caplan


After reports all week stated that UFC lightweight champion B.J. Penn was in the process of filing a complaint against Georges St. Pierre, the Nevada State Athletic Commission notified FiveOuncesOfPain.com on Wednesday that Penn has instead filed a formal request for an investigation into alleged infractions committed by St. Pierre before and during their UFC 94 title fight this past Saturday.

“Dear Mr. Kizer,” the letter begins, addressed to NSAC Executive Director Keith Kizer. “This letter is prepared on behalf of Mr. Jay Dee ‘B.J.’ Penn who participated in the UFC welterweight division ‘Championship Bout’ on January 31, 2009, against Georges St. Pierre (hereinafter ’bout’). While this letter is not a formal Complaint to the Nevada Athletic Commission, it shall serve as a formal request to the Commission that it engaged in a comprehensive investigation and review of the activities involving and relating to Georges St. Pierre (’GSP’) prior to and during the Bout.”

The three page request for a formal investigation regarding whether St. Pierre’s corner, consisting of veteran MMA trainers Greg Jackson and Phil Nurse, improperly applied Vaseline to the neck, chest, and shoulders of St. Pierre.

While the letter at no point acts as a protest in which it is suggested that the outcome of the bout be overturned, it clearly outlines concern that the alleged infractions committed by St. Pierre had an adverse effect Penn’s ability to compete.

“Simply put, by lubricating GSP’s body a highly slippery surface was created that completely neutralized an innocent participant’s abilities and strategy to the advantage of GSP,” a passage in the fourth paragraph reads.

The letter, drafted by Nevada-based attorney Raffi A. Nahabedian, asserts that by St. Pierre having been improperly lubricated Penn’s greatest strength, his jiu-jitsu, was not as effective as it could have been.

“Mr. Penn’s most critical offensive and defensive strategies, his Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, were rendered useless and he was unable to effectively control GSP and engage his submission techniques due to Mr. Penn’s legs and arm slipping out of the attempted holds/locks and GSP’s ability to readily slip out of the holds/locks due to the highly slipper surfaces on GSP’s body.”

One interesting revelation made in the letter is that Penn’s representatives assert that St. Pierre had a reputation for improper lubrication in the past and that Penn’s camp expressed concerns to the commission before the bout.

“Because of Mr. Penn’s prior experience and information provided to him before his participation in the Bout, a member of Mr. Penn’s team informed Commission members prior to the Bout of the possibility of GSP being ‘greased up’ during the Bout or engaging in activities that may cause him to be/become slippery during the Bout,” states the letter.

While the letter does not say so directly, there is language in the next sentence and a subsequent paragraph that could suggest that Penn’s camp expected a greater degree of protection from NSAC.

“While this discussion occurred, Mr. Penn and his team believed that the Commission would be on heightened alert to guard against such illegal activities and would take every precaution to ensure Mr. Penn’s safety and a fair and proper contest… Not withstanding these comments, it is clear that the Commission’s obligations to ensure and guard against such corruption and unfair advantage were severly compromised as people openly witnessed the improper application of an illegal substance over the neck, shoulders, and back of GSP the critical areas of Mr. Penn’s strategy to impose his Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu submission skills and techniques during the Bout.”

The letter goes on to add that Penn voiced complaints while the bout was taking place.

“Additionally, during the Bout, statements were made that GSP was ‘too slippery’ and that Mr. Penn could not grab or hold GSP because of ‘how slippery’ he was during the Bout.”

The letter closes by saying that Penn and his camp are willing to meet with NSAC with the hope that “the activities of GSP and his agents are properly dealt with by the Commission” and that Penn had wanted to have a “fair and just bout” at UFC 94 while continuing to seek “a fair and just encounter against Georges St. Pierre.”

The letter is signed only by Nahabedian with Penn and his Hawaiian-based attorneys Gary Levitt and Lawrence Epstein all carbon copied. Penn still has up until Feb. 10 to submit a formal complaint or protest.

Derek Coleman

I'm a huge St.Pierre fan and I know he'd kill Penn with or without the minimal amount of Vaseline on his body.

That being said... I actually believe that his corner man knows what he is doing when he starts rubbing his shoulders. I think its a bit of a sneaky trick which has backfired dramatically. This scandal is gonna follow him into the Alves fight. It is depressing. I think Phil Nurse the corner man (i think) will not be allowed corner another fight.

Utopia Parkway

Derek Coleman wrote: »

I'm a huge St.Pierre fan and I know he'd kill Penn with or without the minimal amount of Vaseline on his body.

That being said... I actually believe that his corner man knows what he is doing when he starts rubbing his shoulders. I think its a bit of a sneaky trick which has backfired dramatically. This scandal is gonna follow him into the Alves fight. It is depressing. I think Phil Nurse the corner man (i think) will not be allowed corner another fight.

Having seen replays it does look a bit fishy alright. Rubs his face and along his shoulders and then reaches around and gives his back a good long rub. I mean why would you even do that?

Derek Coleman

Yeah I've gone from thinking it was ludicrous to now actually thinking its most likely he knew what he was doing.
He puts vaseline on his hands but only touches the tip of his fingers on his face then rubs his hands all over him. He either fancies a bit of GSP or else he's being sneaky!

JohnMc1

Now BJ is getting lawyers involved. I think BJ needs to go to the beach, surf and soak up the sun , rest, relax and most importantly get over that he lost to GSP. This public display of a temper tantrum is doing more to destroy his credibility and possible legacy than the loss to GSP did.

dunkamania

If there is some truth to the allegations, why wouldnt BJ get the lawyers involved..........

agardiner22

It would be the NSAC that BJ would have to sue because their officials werent enforcing the rules and protocol properly.

Fromvert

BJ isnt looking to sue anybody he has requested the commision to investigate what was happening between rounds. BJ isnt looking for the result to be overturned or for anything to happen. He wants to prevent this from happening again. Even if you knew you lost the fight but seen that the guy was cheating no matter how big or small wouldn't you want it investigated.
Anybody would use their lawyers to write these type of letters.

dunkamania

BJ hasnt made a formal complaint, he has asked that the NSAC investigate.

THe difference is significant, I think.

Fromvert

Dana's, GSP's and Greg Jackson's input on the alleged greasing:

UFC President Dana White was on a popular radio station in Boston, Mass., this morning to address “Grease Gate” at UFC 94: “St. Pierre vs. Penn 2″ this weekend.

"I think that using grease or Vaseline is completely illegal, but in this case I don't think it made a difference in that fight. I know Georges St. Pierre. He's not a cheater. He wanted this fight so bad to prove that he was the best fighter in the world. He completely dominated that fight. It had nothing to do with grease.... The athletic commission is looking into it. You can not rub grease on any part of the body besides the face. [The commission] took all our camera work from all the different angles and is looking into it. This is the case of a stupid cornerman. The cornerman did it and he is going to be held accountable for it.... Anything can happen to his cornerman - everything from a fine to never being able to work in the corner again."



Yesterday GSP offered his input to SI.com:

" I just can't believe it. I don't know. I'm just surprised. I'm not a cheater. What happened is my trainer, my Muay Thai coach, he put Vaseline on my face and then put his hand on my chest and back. But that's a technique we use for breathing. It's good. It's used in Muay Thai. I use it in many of my fights. If you look at my previous fights, it's not the first time he does that. Then B.J. said he put Vaseline and rubbed my back. Anyway, I think it's an excuse. I have nothing to hide. I'm not even afraid to go into court and fight that."

"I was training when his legs come up to posture up. And when he got the position to keep my head always over his head. By staying in a vertical position his leg was naturally going to go down. If I stayed flat, he would have been able to bring his leg up. But I stayed in a vertical position."

"B.J. Penn, you were talking about his guard, he has very flexible legs. Another thing is, because he has very flexible hips, it made his thoracic cage more susceptible to being weak. That's why I was working a lot of elbows to the body. On the ground I was putting my elbow in his stomach to make him tired. And a lot of knees. It was my game plan."

"I know a lot of doctors. It's a fact. When somebody has flexible hips, normally he has a weak thoracic cage. His bones are weaker. It's science. And with B.J., that's the case. He has very flexible hips, so his core is weaker than somebody who has normal hips. That's why I was attacking the body a lot. People, when they fight B.J., they try to hit the head. But B.J. has very thick skin and he moves his head very well and his reaction time is very fast. He can move his head standing up, but his body never moves. I was targeting the body a lot."

"To tell you the truth, I think it's normal to have a winning attitude in life. When I lose, I always try to figure out why I lose. But the problem with B.J., he tries to figure out why he loses, but he doesn't focus on himself. He focuses on the other person. When I lost the fight I focused on what I did wrong. I didn't focus on what I cannot change. B.J., instead of focusing on things he can change to make himself better, he tries to focus on things he doesn't have any control over, and tries to find some excuse that it's not up to him. It's really an excuse. He should focus on things that he can change about himself in the fight to make himself better. That would be a better approach for him."

Mr. Greg Jackson recently spoke to mmaweekly and here are the highlights from that conversation:

"The controversy came because Phil Nurse also was putting Vaseline on Georges’ eyebrows,” Jackson elaborated. “In between rounds, you always want to put on Vaseline on (a fighter’s face). So Phil Nurse put all the Vaseline on his face, so his hands might have had a miniscule amount left over from that, when he went around the side and rubbed a little point on his back, and tapped on his chest."

“The whole greasing thing is pretty ridiculous,” he said. “You can’t grease somebody up. You just couldn’t do it. They check your body before you get into the cage, there’s an inspector right there. In order for us to grease him up, it would be insane. There are cameras everywhere. We don’t cheat. We don’t need to cheat to win.”

ginoginelli

George pretty much sums it up in that last paragraph.


Just checked out bj's web site. its covered head to toe in stuff about the greasing and george being a cheater.

its ridiculous..

Karmafaerie

just thought I'd weigh in on this.

Firstly, GSP's corner were stupid, plain and simple.

Secondly, if anybody believes that this could have made a difference, now I'm not talking a difference to the outcome, I'm talking an actual difference to BJ's defence, then you need to think it through more throughly.

Every single source, Dana, the NSAC, BJ's corner, GSP's corner, and the video evidence, states clearly, that the vasaline was rubbed into his face, and then the hands were placed on his shoulders and back/chest.
That means that at most a negligable amount of vasaline could have transferred over.

To put this in context, every single fighter has vasaline on his face before every fight, and during every round break.
If the residue from his hands was enough to make a difference, then jiu jitsu wouldn't work in MMA.

During every grappling situation, the fighters face makes rough contact with every part of the opponents body.

You vigorously rub your vasaline covered face off opponents chests.



Over their stomach.



The inside of their arm, and whole side of the torso.



Off the back of their legs.



The insides of their legs.



Even the exact same part of the back that "supposedly" allowed GSP to neutralise the rubber guard.





Look, here's BJ Penn illegally "greasing" up Matt Hughes!;)



And here's GSP applying vasaline to Matt Sera's back and shoulders!:pac:




If the residue from wipping vasaline on GSP's face was enough to cause problems for BJ Penn, then no rubber guard would ever work in MMA.
By the time the first round is over, unless it's nothing but stand up, you've rubbed trace amounts of vasaline all over the opponents body.
GSP especially, as he likes to keep his face pressed up against you when going for take downs, or in your guard.
(For wrestling reasons before the conspiracy theorists jump in!)

There's a reason that athletics commisioners rub a lot of fighters down between rounds.
Most fighters are greasy after the first minute of a fight.

In order for it to have made any difference to the rubber guard, or any other defensive posturing, GSP would have had to have been properly greased up before the fight, and we all know that this isn't the case.

Stupid, stupid, mistake from the corner, but it in no way effected the fight result, or the attempted defence of BJ.

GSP weakened BJ's legs and shoulders before taking him down and from the guard, and then destroyed his heart within the first minute or so on the ground.

dunkamania

Always a fan of the pretty pictures, and I dont dispute the outcome of the fight, with or without greasing, but I am not convinced BJ's ability to use his rubber guard wasnt impaired.

I think Jackson offered a rematch, and BJ wants to do it in the summer, which may coincide with UFC 100.

Personally I would have BJ fight Florian, and GSP fight Alves first.

LOL - Nice pic montage there. But it misses the point.

The simple fact is that he could easily have had vaseline on the palms of his hands AND the tips of his fingers. Rub the tips of his fingers on GSPs face and then the large amount hidden in the palm of his hand on GSPs back/neck. Not beyond the realsm of possibility. You can't rule these things out. That's how I'd have done it if I wanted to grease my fighter.

Simply put, there's enough of a case to warrant the question being asked and for the commission to look into it.