GSP alleged greasing discussion

Karmafaerie

dunkamania wrote: »

Always a fan of the pretty pictures, and I dont dispute the outcome of the fight, with or without greasing, but I am not convinced BJ's ability to use his rubber guard wasnt impaired.

I think Jackson offered a rematch, and BJ wants to do it in the summer, which may coincide with UFC 100.

Personally I would have BJ fight Florian, and GSP fight Alves first.

Yes, cause I'm the one who started posting pictures in here!:rolleyes:

What it comes down to is this.
a tiny spot of vasaline, on his back would not effect tehrubber guard, any more than GSP putting his hand on BJ's leg, or his face on his back.
The minimal ammount of vasaline that can be transferred over would not be enough to cause the problems that some seem intent on implying.

A large gob of vasaline would have had to have been applied, and then rubbed in.
No one is suggesting that this happened.

Most of the gifs that are been shown to indcate GSP being slippery, are of BJ's legs "slipping" off of GSP's Dorsi muscles.
There was never any contact with GSP's dorsi muscles from eiter Nurse or Jackson.

Karmafaerie

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Yes, cause I'm the one who started posting pictures in here!:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: Actually most of the other pics were either humour GIFs or GIFs of the fight.

Your pics are implying that the small amount from the face isn't enough, but the question is about the effect of grease applied directly to the back.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

What it comes down to is this.
a tiny spot of vasaline, on his back would not effect tehrubber guard, any more than GSP putting his hand on BJ's leg, or his face on his back.
The minimal ammount of vasaline that can be transferred over would not be enough to cause the problems that some seem intent on implying.

Not necessarily but then again, you don't know do you.

As a matter of interest do you play rubber guard much yourself in training?

Karmafaerie wrote: »

A large gob of vasaline would have had to have been applied, and then rubbed in.
No one is suggesting that this happened..

See my post above. You can't see how much, if any, vaseline is on Nurse's palm. It very easily could have happened.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Most of the gifs that are been shown to indcate GSP being slippery, are of BJ's legs "slipping" off of GSP's Dorsi muscles.
There was never any contact with GSP's dorsi muscles from eiter Nurse or Jackson.

BJ tried to play rubber guard at the start of Rd2 and his legs slipped rather easily down GSPs neck first then his back. Had it have been applied to his neck then that would have greased his legs up sufficiently for his legs to then slip down GSPs other non-greased muscles.

Karmafaerie

For that to be the case Neil, the NSA Commisioner standing a foot away would have had to have missed the large amount of vasaline on Nurses hand.
He would have had to have missed to large amount of vasaline that would have been left visably on GSP's body before it was smoothed out, and he and all the others would have had to have missed this in every round break, of every one of GSP's fights, seeing as the implication is being bandied about now that this is a constant occourance.

It's just not going to happen.

If you've ever tried to apply a large amount of vasaline anywhere you'll notie that it doesn't apply smoothly, it has to be leveled out.
With the amount of cameras and commisioners, it would have been noticed a long, long, time ago.

As for using the rubber guard, I actually employ it quiet often when grappling (I'm 6 ft 1, and would could cut to fight at light weight!;) Very long legs!:p).

Never with bare backs however.

One thing I've noticed while rolling, is that seeing as I almost always roll with bigger guys, and I'm talking about three weight classes above me, is taht when you're rolling with a much stronger fighter, he always seems slippy.
Even with a gi or top.
GSP is prodigiously strong (pardon the pun!:P), and IMO this would account for a lot of the "he feels slippy" stories poping up.

I think it's safe to say that GSP is quite possibly the naturally strongest welterweight out there.

Again, I think we all know that it was a stupid mistake by the team, but the implication taht it made any difference whatsoever is just not viable to me.

dunkamania

The situation is messy, but I dont think it can be explained by - he is big, thats why opponents think he is greasy.

Karmafaerie

dunkamania wrote: »

The situation is messy, but I dont think it can be explained by - he is big, thats why opponents think he is greasy.

Not fully.

But I don't think that it can be explained by, a tiny amount of vasaline on the center of his back caused BJ's legs to slip off GSP's Dorsi muscles on his side either.

I honestly can't imagine GSP being involved in cheating.
And I really do believe that it would be a miricle if all of the fighters implying that GSP is a cheater or rule bender, had fought a greased up GSP, with nobody noticing it.
There's a commisioner two foot away during all round breaks, one two feet away when the fighters are checked before going into the octogon, and cameras everywhere.

The UFC is very intent on keeping the sport as clean as possible, so the would be on the lookout.

I know most people here are being very reasoned about this, and are expressing genuine worries and concerns, but it is, as usual, completely diffeent in other places.

Remember, BJ is the kind of fightr with a history of making excuses, and changing his oppinion over time.
After he first loss to GSP he said GSP won, but a few months later was saying the judges screwed him.

Aftr this fight he admitts he lost, says on his facebook that Georges wasn't slippy.
That disapears and suddenly he was slippy but it didn't change the outcome.
Now in the request letter, he reffers to GSP as a cheater.

You know that if a third fight goes ahead, the build up will be BJ talking s**t about being screwed and how GSP is a "French" cheater.
In fact they ould just play the same video promos as for the last fight with the word cheater dubed over the word quitter.

I believe that GSP is rightin saying that BJ looks for excuses outside his control rather than excepting responsibility, and his camp full of Yes men, are probably going on about GSP being a cheater 24/7 right now.
Give it a few weeks and BJ will be saying it too I think.

Martin25

I thought that the fight was exciting and that George won more easily than I anticipated. He seemed to be bigger and more powerful than BJ. Maybe both are more natural at their respective weights, at light weight and welterweight?

Charlie3dan

I would have thought Matt Hughes was easily a match for the strength of GSP and yet he's also suggested that GSP felt greasy.

Nobody thinks what happened with the greasing would have changed the outcome of the fight. But there's definitely enough there for this to be investigated.

You can see BJ's legs slipping off GSP's back, you can see the corner man apply vaseline and then rub GSP's chest and back and to top it all you have a list of fighters suggesting GSP has felt slippy in the past.

dunkamania

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Aftr this fight he admitts he lost, says on his facebook that Georges wasn't slippy.
That disapears and suddenly he was slippy but it didn't change the outcome.
Now in the request letter, he reffers to GSP as a cheater.

He admitted he lost, but said that GSP was a bit greasy.
He still hasnt said that the outcome would have changed, only that his ability to compete was impacted.
I missed the part where he called GSP a cheater, please link it

Karmafaerie

Charlie3dan wrote: »

I would have thought Matt Hughes was easily a match for the strength of GSP and yet he's also suggested that GSP felt greasy.

Nobody thinks what happened with the greasing would have changed the outcome of the fight. But there's definitely enough there for this to be investigated.

You can see BJ's legs slipping off GSP's back, you can see the corner man apply vaseline and then rub GSP's chest and back and to top it all you have a list of fighters suggesting GSP has felt slippy in the past.

Mat Hughes is nowhere near as strong as GSP.
Hughes has trained wreslters strength.
GSP is a much stronger person.
He has ridiculous power.
Look at how he dominated Trigg, Hughes, and Sherk, all very strong fighters, just not on GS's level.
GSP would easily fight at middleweight after all.

And as I said, if BJ couldn't get a grip due to the "grease", how come it effected his grip on areas where there is no suggestion of grease being applied?

BJ's legs weren't strong enough to contain GSP, and GSP weakened his core from the off to accentuate this.

Karmafaerie

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Not fully.

But I don't think that it can be explained by, a tiny amount of vasaline on the center of his back caused BJ's legs to slip off GSP's Dorsi muscles on his side either.

I honestly can't imagine GSP being involved in cheating.
And I really do believe that it would be a miricle if all of the fighters implying that GSP is a cheater or rule bender, had fought a greased up GSP, with nobody noticing it.
There's a commisioner two foot away during all round breaks, one two feet away when the fighters are checked before going into the octogon, and cameras everywhere.
The UFC is very intent on keeping the sport as clean as possible, so the would be on the lookout.

I know most people here are being very reasoned about this, and are expressing genuine worries and concerns, but it is, as usual, completely diffeent in other places.

Remember, BJ is the kind of fightr with a history of making excuses, and changing his oppinion over time.
After he first loss to GSP he said GSP won, but a few months later was saying the judges screwed him.

Aftr this fight he admitts he lost, says on his facebook that Georges wasn't slippy.
That disapears and suddenly he was slippy but it didn't change the outcome.
Now in the request letter, he reffers to GSP as a cheater.

You know that if a third fight goes ahead, the build up will be BJ talking s**t about being screwed and how GSP is a "French" cheater.
In fact they ould just play the same video promos as for the last fight with the word cheater dubed over the word quitter.

I believe that GSP is rightin saying that BJ looks for excuses outside his control rather than excepting responsibility, and his camp full of Yes men, are probably going on about GSP being a cheater 24/7 right now.
Give it a few weeks and BJ will be saying it too I think.

I get the impression your hatred for BJ is clouding your views here.

Also, himself and Lindland complained to Rogan in the post fight interview after GSP 1. They kept going on about "Look at his face" - so please keep your facts correct thanks.



On BJs facebook he said that he got beaten byt he better fighter and I havent seen him say that if it wasn't for the greasing he'd have won. But he's entitled to ask the question. Had his rubber guard have been fully implemented without constraint then he'd likely have taken a lot less punishment. Understandable that it'd leave a sour taste.


Do you know for a fact that BJ will call him a "French" cheater? No...well then please don't speculate.


Maybe BJ does look for excuses who knows, but the pics and GIFs are there and they are convincing enough to warrant the questioning of this. Especially since Serra, Hughes, BJ and Mayhem have all said it.

Karmafaerie

Deleted User wrote: »

I get the impression your hatred for BJ is clouding your views here.

BJ Penn has always been one of my favorite fighters.
I think that if he got himelf away from the yes men clouding his judgment, and dedicated himself properly to 155, he could become a true legend.

Deleted User wrote:

Also, himself and Lindland complained to Rogan in the post fight interview after GSP 1. They kept going on about "Look at his face" - so please keep your facts correct thanks.

I've seen this fight a dozen times or more.
At least 4 times in the last few weeks.
Please if you want to try tell people to stick to the facts, you should really be leading by example.
After the fight, in the post match interview, Rogan asked BJ repeatedly if he thought the decision was wrong.
It went (and I'm not quoting verbatim)...

BJ: I don't feel like I lost the fight, Look at his face.
Rogan: Are you saying you thought the judges got it wrong.
BJ: He fought a good fight. I just think I did more damage.
Rogan: So do you think it was a wrong decision?
BJ: No. He's a great fighter, he fought a great fight

That is what BJ said directly after the fight.
Question:Was it the wrong decision?
Answer:No.

Deleted User wrote:

On BJs facebook he said that he got beaten byt he better fighter and I havent seen him say that if it wasn't for the greasing he'd have won. But he's entitled to ask the question. Had his rubber guard have been fully implemented without constraint then he'd likely have taken a lot less punishment. Understandable that it'd leave a sour taste.

Of course he can.
Can he use it as an excuse.
No.
Is he now?
No.
Will he.
IMO, yes.

Deleted User wrote:

Do you know for a fact that BJ will call him a "French" cheater? No...well then please don't speculate.

BJ has done nothing but call GSP a quitter for the last few months.
I can't access the internet here in work fully, so will have to post it later, but there are dozens of instances of this.
BJ said in a quote that Matt Hughes was right about GSP being a quitter.
Matt Hughes reasoning for GSP being a quitter is that all French type people are quitters.:rolleyes:

Deleted User wrote:

Maybe BJ does look for excuses who knows, but the pics and GIFs are there and they are convincing enough to warrant the questioning of this. Especially since Serra, Hughes, BJ and Mayhem have all said it.

Of course they are, and when nothing is found, GSP'll be warranted in his annoyance at his victory, and in fact all of his victories being questioned going forward.

Going on past evidence, BJ Penn is a very bitter looser, and will milk this for all it's worth.

Karmafaerie

dunkamania wrote: »

He admitted he lost, but said that GSP was a bit greasy.
He still hasnt said that the outcome would have changed, only that his ability to compete was impacted.
I missed the part where he called GSP a cheater, please link it

It was on BJ Penns website yesterday.
I can't access it again at work, so feel free to do so yourself, or I'll post it later.

In the first blog after the fight, they said they'd hae some big news coming.
In the second, they said that while they're not using it as a nexcuse, they think it should be investigated as GSP and his team should not be allowed to cheat.

rovert

Interesting turn of events:
http://mmamania.com/2009/02/06/bj-penn-accepts-fight-against-georges-st-pierre-in-summer-2009/

From BJ Penn:

“For the past several days I have been reading statements made by St. Pierre and Greg Jackson about our fight on January 31. St. Pierre claims that he is ‘not a cheater’ and that he and Greg Jackson will have ‘no problem with a rematch in the summer of 2009.’ To the untrained eye the grease might not look like much, but every grappler knows the effect that it has. Being able to apply your submissions and sweeps or just being able to hold on to your opponent to defend yourself from being hit is absolutely critical! There is a reason why you are not allowed to put grease anywhere on your body except for the area around your eyes. Because of the grease applied to St.Pierre’s Body the Nevada State Athletic Commission’s executive director, Keith Kizer has stated that the Penn-St. Pierre fight ‘definitely wasn’t fair.’ I hereby accept George St. Pierre and Greg Jackson’s challenge for a fight in the summer 2009. Lets call Dana now and set it up.”

Dragan

I am saying right now that BJ either needs to attend to his duties as LW Champ or give up the belt.

THIS is why i hate when belt holders fight outside their weight class.

It completely ****ing stalls things.

agardiner22

Do u people have to quote peoples entire post, why not the bit that pisses you off.

murfie

Watched it only last night and I had read before i watched it about the supposed greasing up. In my opinion its a distraction from the plain FACT that BJ got his ass handed to him. His supporters cannot believe he was dominated in the way he was and focuses the attention on greasing up.

The way GSP passed BJ guard was truly dominating, and BJ simply had no answer. The judges were watching for the greasing between rounds, the 2 guys beside GSP in between rounds, and they toweled him down before each round.

Its a shame that this great performance was tainted by greasing allegations but there was nothing in it in my opinion and nothing will come of it.

Derek Coleman

I skipped over most of that last page. Way too many quoted posts. That quote button should be only used in emergencies!! :rolleyes:

Just on the images of Bj's leg slipping down GSP's back...... What is everyone expecting to happen? Is Bj's calf supposed to stick to GSP's shoulders like velcro? Why would it? If someone is on top of you with their head over yours and you throw up your super flexible legs on to their shoulders what are you expecting to happen? And Bj isn't trying to grab his foot/ankle. Please please please lets put this rubber guard thing to bed. Its stupid.

P.S. GSP fan....... and yes he was greased up by that idiot corner man. :mad: Hope he gets punished and we can all move on.

dunkamania

I would appreciate it if this thread could stick to new devlopments on this topic as opposed to quote laden pettiness (applies to me too). The constant back and forth is getting tedious.

Thanks

SuperWoody101

EDIT: Never mind, it was posted already

Nothingcompares

My opinion on this comes down to the rules. If Bj Penn tested positive for marijuana after this fight (which he didn't) I would fully expect a ban and a fine. Why? Because it's against the rules someone somewhere has made and that he accepted to abide by. Did it effect the fight? No. Does it matter? No. Same thing if Bj tested positive for steroids or something.

If there was grease (vaseline etc.) applied directly to GSP's back by his corner man, either accidentally or intentionally it's still against the rules. And the NSAC needs to apply a relevant punishment (ban for corner man, fine for GSP).

The question of how much grease is irrelevant. The question of how much detectable Marijuana ingredient in the piss sample is irrelevant. The question of how it effected the fight is also irrelevant in this case.

The important question is a Yes/No question. Were the rules broken.

Having said that, take it back to the fight, and not the rules.

I'd be reluctant to comment on the significance of the alleged Vaseline usage without knowing how much was allegedly used. But I'd go with the bottom line that the W was going GSP's way regardless. With a more functional rubber guard, maybe BJ would have taken less damage on the ground and would have kept GSP in his guard longer but there was no evidence a sweep or a submission was forthcoming (but how would there be if he couldn't lock mission control down due to grease?).

Should GSP and Bj Penn fight soon? Why not. But I'd rather see GSP/Alves and Bj penn FLorian/Aoki before that.

What I was also surprised by during the fight was Bj's complaints about short grabbing during the first round, just surprised that's all.

Karmafaerie

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I've seen this fight a dozen times or more.
At least 4 times in the last few weeks.
Please if you want to try tell people to stick to the facts, you should really be leading by example.
After the fight, in the post match interview, Rogan asked BJ repeatedly if he thought the decision was wrong.
It went (and I'm not quoting verbatim)...

BJ: I don't feel like I lost the fight, Look at his face.
Rogan: Are you saying you thought the judges got it wrong.
BJ: He fought a good fight. I just think I did more damage.
Rogan: So do you think it was a wrong decision?
BJ: No. He's a great fighter, he fought a great fight

That is what BJ said directly after the fight.
Question:Was it the wrong decision?
Answer:No.

Ok, this is my last post in response to you on this. I think some posters here need to learn when to realise that they have made their point and to stop quoting EVERYTHING and filling up a thread with "I'm right, you're wrong" bullsh1t.

Look, you just posted roughly verbatum what was said as some form of proof that I was wrong when in fact you claimed that BJ said GSP won (he didn't) and I said that wasn't true but that Lindland and BJ were clearly in disagreement with the decision (which if you are honest, is actually what happened, it was clear by their body language and the fact that they went with the whole "He's a great fighter but....") but were reluctant to say it outright to Rogan. I'm fairly sure BJ never said "he won" and he certainly led with the inplication that he highly disagreed with the dec. Lindland was vocally in disagreement in the background. Quite a simple and obvious thing really. If you watched it a dozen times then you should know better.

Now, I'm out from now but again, some posters (and this isn't aimed specifically at karmaferie, at times we're all guilty of it) need to really stop with the whole "I'm 100% right all the time and everything I say is right and I'm gonna argue with anyone who disagrees with me" style of posting and accept that everyone has an opinion.


In this case, myself and yourelf obviously disagree and another 10 pages of us quoting each other makes both of us look like nobs, makes most posters give up on the thread and generally is a big waste of time. So we'll agree to disagree.

Seifer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok, this is my last post in response to you on this. I think some posters here need to learn when to realise that they have made their point and to stop quoting EVERYTHING and filling up a thread with "I'm right, you're wrong" bullsh1t.

Lol, so why not "be the bigger man" and let him have the last word?
The fear of quoting in this forum is bizarre. You don't have to re-read the quote you know? It's the same as what was in the original post.
Quoting is needed in an online discussion forum so that posters know exactly which points are people are refering to and things aren't taken the wrong way.
If you want an information source then make a webpage. This is a discussion forum.

^^^^^^^^^^ (see no quote )


I actually agree and would have let him have the last word only that I have to mod this forum and sometimes you need to try to steer threads back on topic. And as for the rest, I'm not gonna ban people for quoting unfortunately. I agree it's a hinderance and makes sh1t longer but banning it would be a bit of a farce and way OTT IMO. But that's not the topic of this thread so people from here on in please only post discussion on GSP and greasegate.

Link


From MMAWeekly.com

Following a week of controversy after the Georges St. Pierre and B.J. Penn fight in which Vaseline was applied to the Canadian by one of his cornermen in between rounds, the UFC has instituted new policies regarding cut men and how the corners are allowed to enter during the breaks in between rounds for this weekend's UFC Fight Night 17 show in Tampa, Fla.

According to sources close to the situation, the UFC has now instructed that cornermen associated with the fighters will no longer be allowed to handle the Vaseline used in between rounds to treat and prevent cuts.

The UFC will now provide one cut man for each corner for the fight. Only two people are allowed to enter the Octagon between rounds so if a cut man is necessary to apply Vaseline or work on a cut, one of the other cornermen working with the fighter must exit the cage to allow the cut man to work.

This is all following the controversy surrounding St. Pierre cornerman, Phil Nurse, applying Vaseline to his fighter's face in between rounds and then moving his hands to the Canadian's chest and back to help with a breathing technique at UFC 94. Because his hands may have still had Vaseline left on them, Penn's camp was compelled to file a letter with the Nevada State Athletic Commission asking for an investigation into the matter.

Though there has been no official word from the UFC if this ruling will be instituted in other states or if Florida previously approved the matter, several MMAWeekly.com sources indicated that the new rules regarding Vaseline use have been presented as permanent.

Stay tuned to MMAWeekly.com for more on this story as it develops.

Kent Brockman

Personally I have found this a very interesting thread and would have joined in loads of times but for time restrictions.

IMO unless someone is being totally unreasonable they should be allowed to defend their opinions (especially when they are coming under constant attack from all angles), and in this particular case if you read the thread from the start you will find that the people accusing Karmafarie of pettiness/i'm right you're wrong/let it go etc etc are IMO more guilty of these same traits than the poster in question.

There has been alot of good points from both sides of the arguement/discussion and It is not fair for one side to try and shut down the other just because they are good at making points and defnding their arguement. Thats a dictatorship not a chat forum.

Now carry on and be nice:)

Derek Coleman

So glad you're staying on topic Kent :rolleyes:

Kent Brockman

Kent Brockman wrote: »

Now carry on and be nice:)

YOU ARE NOT A MOD SO PLEASE KEEP ON TOPIC.


Next off topic post will get yellow carded. That is all.

chopperbyrne

That new rule is a bit odd.

Why restrict the number of cornermen in the octagon?

If there is a cut that needs seeing to or vaseline needs to be applied to the face, let the cut man do it, but the fighters cornermen should still be allowed in their with him between rounds.

As for the whole "greasing" incident. All I saw was GSP with his arms very narrow holding Penn down, then when Penn went for a high guard GSP pushed back his shoulders and pushed his arms sideways while raising his head.

That's what caused Penn to lose his grip, not vaseline.

If Penn insists on a rematch, he should relinquish the lightweight title. It's a joke that Florian may be made wait for about a year for his title shot.

dunkamania

I agree with BJ having to relinquish the title if he wants a welterweight shot.

Unfair to hold up the LW divison

LeoGilly

Here's one for the GSP fan