Chimp for sale

doctor evil · 07-02-2009 8:47pm

One obvious thing that people have ignored so far, primates/monkeys are not truly domesticated!

Out of curiosity to exotics keepers do your animals have a registry/stud book for each of the species? Are things kept track of.

Bond 007 what happened to your red bellie Marmosets?

Our man in Havana · 07-02-2009 9:07pm

My marmosets sadly died. A bunch of reasons - jealousy - pregnancy problems & loneliness - when my female died due to a problem with her pregnancy & my male died of a broken heart. This is why I am looking for 1-2 females for Jack & any babies will stay with me (only the dominate male & female in a group will breed)

My red bellied tamarin Jack is fine - growing well & a bundle of fun - I have always said they are wild animals & can & often do become violent when they become sexually mature. I know this & I still keep them - same as my iguanas are prone to tail whipping me - thankfully (touching wood) they have not bitten me but they could.

Owning any non domesticated animal is hard work & I know at any time I can get badly bitten (that's my choice & I will accept it!) The species I keep are not endangered & are not cites animals so no my animals are not on any lists. Cites animals should be on international lists to keep good bloodlines.

sorella · 08-02-2009 5:43am

All sounds almost sinister.

We are hoping that very soon Irish Law will catch up with the rest of the world eg Canada, where the SPCA have powers of entry to make very sure that exotics are being cared for properly.

There, if they are refused entry, as after all if you have nothing to hide? then they come back and take the animals.
This is law there.

There are so few vets even there who can deal with exotics; if you have to call a vet after hours, the message will advise that is the animal is an exotic, then you must call another number.

Of course there is freedom.

But small wonder that the ISPCA are struggling.

ISPCA Watch wrote: »

We represent the rights of private people to keep primates and other exotic animals in Ireland. We are very weary of organisations such as the ISPCA and other such non-governmental charities that seek to curtail and interfere with our member’s lawful activities.

Our goal is to protect these private individuals from unlawful entry and interference from busybodies such as the ISPCA and other "SPCAS", rescues and general nosey parkers. We have advised our members not to co-operate with these organisations unless they are with Gardaí with an appropriate search warrant.

Many of our members have taken sensible precautions to prevent theft and unlawful entry onto their properties. Our members are doing nothing illegal and would appreciate the same rights to privacy as any other law-abiding citizen of this state. If such an organisation such as the ISPCA seeks to visit a member’s property they should seek permission prior to arriving. In most cases permission will be denied.

I trust our position is clear.

ISPCA Watch · 08-02-2009 3:11pm

sorella wrote: »

All sounds almost sinister.

We are hoping that very soon Irish Law will catch up with the rest of the world eg Canada, where the SPCA have powers of entry to make very sure that exotics are being cared for properly.

There, if they are refused entry, as after all if you have nothing to hide? then they come back and take the animals.
This is law there.

There are so few vets even there who can deal with exotics; if you have to call a vet after hours, the message will advise that is the animal is an exotic, then you must call another number.

Of course there is freedom.

But small wonder that the ISPCA are struggling.

What is sinister is that a bunch of self appointed busybodies can attempt to enter a persons property without legal authority and take animals that they have no real knowledge of away from someone who knows what they are doing purely because that person/organisation does not like the thoughts of such exotic animals being kept by private persons.

We would have no problem if such organisations were put on a statutory footing with persons knowledgeable of exotics preferably keepers themselves performing the legal duties.

At the moment the ISPCA is nothing more than a collection of self appointed busybodies who pretend to have powers that the do not have in order to further their own agenda. Even in the UK the RSPCA has been investigated for using uniforms similar to real police in order to scare people into thinking they have real legal powers which they do not have.

What is really needed is proper regulation and vetting of organisations such as the ISPCA and private rescues. The ISPCA thinks that it some sort of militia according to the way it is organised.

We are doing nothing illegal, but why should we allow people like you to nose around my property? If the ISPCA or other such private organisation attempted to enter onto my property I would slap a lawsuit on them so fast.

sorella · 08-02-2009 4:58pm

"Interesting" response and very predictable indeed.

It does not impress of course.

Perhaps if you thought about joining forces and pooling your expertise and knowledge andl resources with other organisations, instead of this kind of opposition, all the animals would fare better than they do just now?

That is what is more than sinister.

ISPCA Watch wrote: »

What is sinister is that a bunch of self appointed busybodies can attempt to enter a persons property without legal authority and take animals that they have no real knowledge of away from someone who knows what they are doing purely because that person/organisation does not like the thoughts of such exotic animals being kept by private persons.

We would have no problem if such organisations were put on a statutory footing with persons knowledgeable of exotics preferably keepers themselves performing the legal duties.

At the moment the ISPCA is nothing more than a collection of self appointed busybodies who pretend to have powers that the do not have in order to further their own agenda. Even in the UK the RSPCA has been investigated for using uniforms similar to real police in order to scare people into thinking they have real legal powers which they do not have.

What is really needed is proper regulation and vetting of organisations such as the ISPCA and private rescues. The ISPCA thinks that it some sort of militia according to the way it is organised.

We are doing nothing illegal, but why should we allow people like you to nose around my property? If the ISPCA or other such private organisation attempted to enter onto my property I would slap a lawsuit on them so fast.

08-02-2009 5:09pm

sorella wrote: »

"Interesting" response and very predictable indeed.

It does not impress of course.

Except that he is right and you arent.

ISPCA Watch · 08-02-2009 5:44pm

sorella wrote: »

"Interesting" response and very predictable indeed.

It does not impress of course.

I don't care if I don't impress you.

sorella wrote: »

"Perhaps if you thought about joining forces and pooling your expertise and knowledge andl resources with other organisations, instead of this kind of opposition, all the animals would fare better than they do just now?

Why would we join forces with organisations that seek to remove exotics from people who know what they are doing?

You say you work in animal rescue. Would you know the first thing about caring for primates and other exotics? That is the problem with the busy bodies and do gooders, their hearts may be in the right place but they don't have a bloody clue what an exotic needs in terms of care and attention.

Also why do you feel the need to inspect people who happen to be keeping such animals? Is it because it is morally wrong in your eyes? Until it is made illegal to keep exotics there are no laws being broken.

SCI · 08-02-2009 8:13pm

sorella wrote: »

All sounds almost sinister.

We are hoping that very soon Irish Law will catch up with the rest of the world eg Canada, where the SPCA have powers of entry to make very sure that exotics are being cared for properly.

There, if they are refused entry, as after all if you have nothing to hide? then they come back and take the animals.
This is law there.

There are so few vets even there who can deal with exotics; if you have to call a vet after hours, the message will advise that is the animal is an exotic, then you must call another number.

Of course there is freedom.

But small wonder that the ISPCA are struggling.

That's a great idea to have a bunch of people come round to exotic keepers premises to tell them how they should be keeping them.
The only thing the Ispca or the uspca for that matter have been able to prove is they know bugger all about them. pmsl.
I have 3 local exotics vets.

You said the rest of the world eg Canada,I didn't think Canada was that big. By any chance are you a member of PETA?

Busta Hyman · 10-02-2009 4:27pm

seanybiker wrote: »

Ya fecker. What make is the first fella. I want him now

its an opel

Hellrazer · 10-02-2009 5:08pm

ISPCA Watch wrote: »

I don't care if I don't impress you.

Loose the attitude or you`ll be on the receiving end of a ban.Consider this your one and only warning.

Discodog · 10-02-2009 6:23pm

Anyone who responsibly keeps any animal, exotics or otherwise, would WELCOME a visit from the ISPCA. After all they claim to be experts & the animals are being well kept. Why would you not want the ISPCA to view your animals unless you had something to hide ?.

I have met many self appointed exotic animal experts & I know a few real experts. The difference is very easy to spot. I have no doubt that a local ISPCA inspector will have a good relationship with the local Gardai. If an inspector is refused entry they will often return with a Garda. If they are both refused entry the Garda can get a warrant as suspicion will of been raised by the refusal of entry.

Until the law was changed in England the RSPCA would often find exotics in an unhealthy state kept by people who wanted to be zoo keepers but didn't have the dedication.

Keep it up Sorella - the force & common sense are with you !

Oh & some of us might find being associated with PETA as a compliment.

bikki · 10-02-2009 6:25pm

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone who responsibly keeps any animal, exotics or otherwise would WELCOME a visit from the ISPCA. After all they are, so they say, experts & the animals are being well kept. Why would you not want the ISPCA to view your animals unless you had something to hide ?.

I have met many self appointed exotic animal experts & I know a few real experts. The difference is very easy to spot. I have no doubt that a local ISPCA inspector will have a good relationship with the local Gardai. If an inspector is refused entry they will often return with a Garda. If they are both refused entry the Garda can get a warrant as suspicion will of been raised by the refusal of entry.

Until the law was changed in England the RSPCA would often find exotics in an unhealthy state kept by people who wanted to be zoo keepers but didn't have the dedication.

Keep it up Sorella - the force & common sense are with you !

Would u welcome visits by Child Welfare Officers say every 4 months?

Discodog · 10-02-2009 6:32pm

I don't have children but if I did & I had nothing to hide why not. In any event a welfare officer will only keep visiting if they have continued concerns. Contrary to some opinion ISPCA inspectors are not stupid. They are very busy so if they visit you every 4 months then maybe they have a good reason. So invite them in, make a cuppa, & show them how well you keep your animals.

I know exotic keepers who work closely with the SPCA's. They provide advice & often take exotics that need homing.

bikki · 10-02-2009 6:36pm

Why should he?

Discodog · 10-02-2009 6:39pm

Why should he what ?????????

Our man in Havana · 10-02-2009 6:54pm

bikki wrote: »

Would u welcome visits by Child Welfare Officers say every 4 months?

Nope. Nor would primate and exotic owners welcome ISPCA visits every few months.

I am afraid I have come across many very clueless people in the ISPCA. Also I have encountered some very clueless Gardaí. I had a small house fire where the Gardaí attended. I was asked by a Sargent if I had a licence for my iguanas.

I told her they don't need a licence unless they wanted to drive or own a television. She left in a huff.

Also a refusal of entry is not sufficient grounds on its own to obtain a search warrant. There is nothing unlawful in refusing to open your door to certain people. You need solid evidence of abuse/mistreatment to obtain a warrant.

Discodog · 10-02-2009 7:16pm

You might not welcome the ISPCA but plenty of responsible owners do. Many exotic owner have got some of their nicest specimens from SPCA's. If you care about exotics & primates then offer your help to the ISPCA. If they are clueless give them the benefit of your expert knowledge.

The ISPCA is passionate about animals ( the only reason that anyone would take the crap ) & so are you therefore you have much in common.

Our man in Havana · 10-02-2009 7:26pm

Are you saying that I am not a responsible owner?

I have nothing against the ISPCA. It is a shame that alot of their good work is undermined by people with very little knowledge telling people how to keep animals they don't know a lot of. I met one particular person who despite trying to educate them would not take what I had to say on board.

I have nothing to hide & would welcome genuine rescues to come & see my animals. However I would prefer the investigating team to have some serious knowledge of exotics - I speak often with one of the primate keepers in Belfast zoo & he has given me a lot of advice. In my opinion most ISPCA members deal only in a few animals - namely cats & dogs. I have taken animals from one of my local ISPCA members before - especially a baby gecko who hitched a ride on a pallet of computer parts from the USA.

Whilst I am not against the ISPCA I do not agree with some of their methods. They do - do a lot of good to help animals, but most have zero knowledge of primate or reptile care, so why should I listen to them??

It is also my right to refuse admission to my property to anyone expect for Gardaí with warrants. This is just my constitutional rights to refuse admission - nothing to do with me abusing animals.

SCI · 10-02-2009 7:50pm

Discodog wrote: »

Oh & some of us might find being associated with PETA as a compliment.

PMSL,well that says it all.
Well some of us wouldn't.

sorella · 11-02-2009 10:35am

Thank you for this...

PETA?

Who are they?

google; thank you.

No not a member; but "most"/"some" of their aims are good, surely.

Fur farming - we are deeply shocked by the situation here in Donegal

Intensive farming...

Abuse of backyard chained dogs... well clearly yes

testing of animals?

And yes, if you have nothing to hide.. and as I said, your expertise could help others greatly.

All I originally said was that I would love to see the chimps:)

We can all learn from each other to help the critters; who surely are the point here?

Blessings and peace.

Discodog wrote: »

Anyone who responsibly keeps any animal, exotics or otherwise, would WELCOME a visit from the ISPCA. After all they claim to be experts & the animals are being well kept. Why would you not want the ISPCA to view your animals unless you had something to hide ?.

I have met many self appointed exotic animal experts & I know a few real experts. The difference is very easy to spot. I have no doubt that a local ISPCA inspector will have a good relationship with the local Gardai. If an inspector is refused entry they will often return with a Garda. If they are both refused entry the Garda can get a warrant as suspicion will of been raised by the refusal of entry.

Until the law was changed in England the RSPCA would often find exotics in an unhealthy state kept by people who wanted to be zoo keepers but didn't have the dedication.

Keep it up Sorella - the force & common sense are with you !

Oh & some of us might find being associated with PETA as a compliment.

Our man in Havana · 11-02-2009 12:32pm

Just don't break the law or over state your real powers now.

SCI · 11-02-2009 1:11pm

sorella wrote: »

Thank you for this...

PETA?

Who are they?

google; thank you.

No not a member; but "most"/"some" of their aims are good, surely.

Fur farming - we are deeply shocked by the situation here in Donegal

Intensive farming...

Abuse of backyard chained dogs... well clearly yes

testing of animals?

And yes, if you have nothing to hide.. and as I said, your expertise could help others greatly.

All I originally said was that I would love to see the chimps:)

We can all learn from each other to help the critters; who surely are the point here?

Blessings and peace.

I'll quote you from there own site shall I.

PETA US formed in 1980 in the United States and has more than 2 million members and supporters, making it the largest animal rights organisation in the world.

PETA US and PETA Europe are dedicated to establishing and protecting the rights of all animals. Like humans, animals are capable of suffering and have interests in leading their own lives; therefore, they are not ours to use – for food, clothing, entertainment, experimentation or any other reason. PETA-named affiliates around the world educate policymakers and the public about cruelty to animals and promote an understanding of the right of all animals to be treated with respect.

PETA US and PETA Europe work through public education, research, legislation, special events, celebrity involvement and protest campaigns.

I find the piece I made red the most interesting,don't you?

sorella · 11-02-2009 1:13pm

No intention of doing either; we always in one way or another use the proper channels...

Well, almost always...

We work with and alongside and in co-operation with existing organisations and thus sometimes for them.

Pooling resources works well. When the animals come first much is possible then.

The apparant "paronoia" is interesting though.

Bond-007 wrote: »

Just don't break the law or over state your real powers now.

Our man in Havana · 11-02-2009 1:18pm

What is interesting about it? I am curious.

Rory123 · 11-02-2009 2:01pm

SCI wrote: »

I'll quote you from there own site shall I.

PETA US formed in 1980 in the United States and has more than 2 million members and supporters, making it the largest animal rights organisation in the world.

PETA US and PETA Europe are dedicated to establishing and protecting the rights of all animals. Like humans, animals are capable of suffering and have interests in leading their own lives; therefore, they are not ours to use – for food, clothing, entertainment, experimentation or any other reason. PETA-named affiliates around the world educate policymakers and the public about cruelty to animals and promote an understanding of the right of all animals to be treated with respect.

PETA US and PETA Europe work through public education, research, legislation, special events, celebrity involvement and protest campaigns.

I find the piece I made red the most interesting,don't you?

I have seen the light! I have just set free my dog, cats, fish and parrot, to live life in their natural habitat of the North County Dublin jungle.

WHAT DO WE WANT, ANIMAL RIGHTS, WHEN DO WE WANT IT NOW!!!
GO PETA.

Rory123 · 11-02-2009 2:03pm

Update... the parrot just ate the fish, then got eaten by cats, who then got eaten by the dog, who just got hit by a car.

Oh well thats the circle of life.

Our man in Havana · 11-02-2009 2:06pm

Expect a visit from the ISPCA with Gardaí then.

SCI · 11-02-2009 2:41pm

sorella wrote: »

No intention of doing either; we always in one way or another use the proper channels...

Well, almost always...

We work with and alongside and in co-operation with existing organisations and thus sometimes for them.

Pooling resources works well. When the animals come first much is possible then.

The apparant "paronoia" is interesting though.

There's no paranoia there are "welfare" groups out the that want pet keeping stopped and all exotic pet owners know that they are the easier option and likely on the there first step in there bigger plan.

cavedave · 11-02-2009 3:40pm

Do you feel the great apes deserve to be granted certain protections we do not grant other animals?

I believe they should and have explained in other posts here why I think they should. Others have argued why they should not.

That PETA (which has as members many people arguing for the special protection of apes) want to stop me having a pet dog, eating meat, hunting rabbits and keeping bees is only marginally related to this question. The thin edge of the wedge argument is worth making but I think the merits of extending greater protection to the great apes should be judged on their own merits.

The practicalities of how such protection should be enforced is also worth considering. I don't want swat teams raiding someones house for not paying parking tickets for example. Similarly protections given to animals have to be balanced with privacy. The balance in this case between animal welfare (of hominids) and human rights (of different hominids;)) is something that becomes important only once people agree the great apes should be extended greater protection.

Owning a small monkey (tamarin say) is hugely different to owning a bonobo. Probably as different between owning a chimp and a owning a person (slavery).

SCI · 11-02-2009 4:12pm

I don't think any one should be able to own one or should a pet shop be able to sell one but I still don't see any problem with a specialist keeper
keeping a group,be it that would likely be a private zoo etc.

Chimp for sale

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