Kerry GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post #4167

keane2097

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I mentioned before this game that there seems to be a lot of expectation placed on the shoulders of some very young and very inexperienced players.

All these young guys really had to have their A games to help Kerry through.

This was an example of where that big game experience was lacking.
This was Kelly's second game in Croke Park, and his first against any opposition of the level of Mayo.

Yeah you're right, I do think he genuinely was scared to deviate from booting it down the middle which was unfortunate, but as you said you'll have things like that when it's greener players.

What do you reckon about the replay?

ShamoBuc

Stinicker wrote: »

Kerry are a far superior team to Mayo and I predict we will run riot next weekend against this poor Mayo team, and let their be no doubts about that yes they are poor and it would have been the ultimate disgrace to the Green and Gold if Mayo and the referee had beat Kerry yesterday as they tried hard to do.

The referee was disgraceful, the sending off was a sending off yes but common sense should have prevailed as their was no real malice in it and the lad should have got a yellow card. The referee subsequently awarded Mayo 1-05 from frees, Kerry by contrast scored 2 points from frees. There was far worse challenges and several attempts made to half kill Jamesie O'Donoghue which warranted a Red Card and these are the offenses he should have punished.

The referee did everything in his power to rebalance the game in the 2nd game back in favour of Mayo to somehow atone for his mistake.

Kerry are Kerry and we will march on Limerick next Saturday our heads held high, our destiny in our own hands and one thing for sure is Kerry will come out on top, it is clear to see that Kerry are a far superior team to Mayo and whilst we did not play at our best yesterday we overturned a 5 point lead with 4 minutes left and should have won the game, it also shows the lack of bottle by Mayo that they couldn't hold us out. Mayo choked again yesterday in what was their best change since '96 to beat Kerry.

I predict Donaghy's introduction on the 45 minute next weekend to be pivotal and he will destroy Mayo like he did yesterday and so many times before, Mayo cannot handle Donaghy and Jamesie O'Donoghue will bury a few goals.

Kerry will defeat Mayo next weekend by a minimum of ten points, as a the true holders of the flame, Kerry are Kerry and we cannot not allow this Mayo team of perennial chokers to hand Dublin or Donegal a soft All-Ireland again. Kerry must go to the final because there is old scores to settle against both of them teams.

Write off Kerry at your Peril!!

Lol....I've read many a pontificating post from you but this is up there with the best of them. You always come out with this tripe and then slither off for the winter if Kerry lose.
Comical on so many levels, keep it up!

corny

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Was at the game and watched it again on rte player when I came home.

I thought Geaney was outstanding, JOD had another fantastic game and my heart was in my mouth when he was breaking through for the goal chance, he had nothing else on his mind but to bury that ball but got too much power in the shot. Moran was my motm though simply for the sheer work he put in- he kicked two booming points and laid that ball on a plate for Donaghy for the goal.

I wouldn't have been a fan of Donaghy in the last year or two and he had done nothing but stroll around picking fights in the semi last year with Dublin but he took those balls magnificently and might be worth a start next week in the full forward line. I would hate to be Mayo having to mark him and JOD.

Mayo deserve huge credit but they got their tactics wrong in the first half. Running at Kerry paid huge dividends in the second. Mayo are looking for a two week break for a reason- their work was Trojan- be hard to replicate that form in 6 days time.

I thought that Mayo had 15 men with the ref as after the man was sent off (harsh call imo but he had stamped on Declan five minutes earlier so I think it was a combination of the two) as he was only pointing one way but when Mayo went a point up Kerry got every call. I hate to see that crap. Let them play football.

Aidan O Shea waving card signs was a disgrace considering he was fouling every man around him in midfield all day long.

I wouldn't be hopeful in Limerick as its a narrow pitch and Mayo will not be that niave tactically twice. The extra game will help both teams for whoever gets through. The Mayo supporters were a joy as always- pure footballing people.

The negatives- Marc O Shea had a poor game. Was away from his man a lot in the second half. He is not a natural in the full back line- He would be better suited to the half back. What the hell he was doing in front of the goal for the last few minutes is beyond me. Left too much through him.

I think Sheehan could have had another 15 yards to move that ball forward as the ref seemed to be moving it forward but Sheehan pointed to the ground and placed it there. Could have been the winning.

Very proud of Kerry coming back but usual second half slump strikes again

Agree with nearly everything here. David Moran was heroic and my MOTM. His fancy couple of scores aside his willingness to work hard (in the face of adversity especially) was epic. Broke free to belt a perfect ball into Donaghy for the goal too.

Wouldn't start Donaghy though. Kerry can become far too direct when he plays. I know it worked a treat yesterday but i'd fancy Mayo will be very keen to address that. Working the ball in patiently like they did in the first half plays more to their collective strengths imo.

Da Shins Kelly

Stinicker wrote: »

Kerry are a far superior team to Mayo and I predict we will run riot next weekend against this poor Mayo team, and let their be no doubts about that yes they are poor and it would have been the ultimate disgrace to the Green and Gold if Mayo and the referee had beat Kerry yesterday as they tried hard to do.

The referee was disgraceful, the sending off was a sending off yes but common sense should have prevailed as their was no real malice in it and the lad should have got a yellow card. The referee subsequently awarded Mayo 1-05 from frees, Kerry by contrast scored 2 points from frees. There was far worse challenges and several attempts made to half kill Jamesie O'Donoghue which warranted a Red Card and these are the offenses he should have punished.

The referee did everything in his power to rebalance the game in the 2nd game back in favour of Mayo to somehow atone for his mistake.

Kerry are Kerry and we will march on Limerick next Saturday our heads held high, our destiny in our own hands and one thing for sure is Kerry will come out on top, it is clear to see that Kerry are a far superior team to Mayo and whilst we did not play at our best yesterday we overturned a 5 point lead with 4 minutes left and should have won the game, it also shows the lack of bottle by Mayo that they couldn't hold us out. Mayo choked again yesterday in what was their best change since '96 to beat Kerry.

I predict Donaghy's introduction on the 45 minute next weekend to be pivotal and he will destroy Mayo like he did yesterday and so many times before, Mayo cannot handle Donaghy and Jamesie O'Donoghue will bury a few goals.

Kerry will defeat Mayo next weekend by a minimum of ten points, as a the true holders of the flame, Kerry are Kerry and we cannot not allow this Mayo team of perennial chokers to hand Dublin or Donegal a soft All-Ireland again. Kerry must go to the final because there is old scores to settle against both of them teams.

Write off Kerry at your Peril!!

Just lol at all of this!

You might want to give your team a bit more credit. Kerry didn't get a draw because Mayo bottled it (and if I remember correctly, it was Kerry who had a four point lead and 15 men on the field going into the second half and couldn't go on and finish it. Did they bottle it then too?) or because of refereeing decisions. Kerry came back very strongly after a phenomenal turnaround by Mayo with good substitutions and they showed a lot of determination. The one thing about Kerry is that it's never over til it's over with them. You could never say Kerry are dead and buried until the final whistle goes. They're a great occasion team and seem to work well under pressure. Mayo also pulled an immense performance out of the bag when it mattered and there were moments in the second half where they were running rings around the Kerry lads with 14 men on the field. It was like Keegan's sending off gave them the swift kick up the arse they needed. I don't really know why people continue to doubt their spirit.

It was such a thrilling match precisely because of how deep both teams dug when it really came down to it. Neither team bottled it. I expect another great battle again next weekend (hopefully they're not too wrecked). It's so hard to call it. Mayo lack consistency, but when they actually have it together, they look quite formidable indeed. That said, Kerry's forward line is very potent and there are weaknesses in Mayo's defence that can be exposed.

Very excited about the replay, I'll be watching it from Electric Picnic.

Fr Tod Umptious

keane2097 wrote: »

Yeah you're right, I do think he genuinely was scared to deviate from booting it down the middle which was unfortunate, but as you said you'll have things like that when it's greener players.

What do you reckon about the replay?

As a Mayo man I am confident about the replay.

I think Mayo learned a lot about themselves yesterday and if they do what they did in the second half early and often on Saturday they should ware Kerry down.

No offence to this Kerry team but I think they are a year or so to early, where as Mayo are more seasoned.

Mayo have also been much luckier than Kerry this season when it comes to injuries, that being said I did hear that Cafferkey and McLoughlin had picked up knocks.

I think the 6 day turn around will suit Mayo better than Kerry based on their overall physical conditioning.

I don't think that this is a game Kerry wanted whereas Mayo will relish it.

Obviously Kerry still pose a lot of threats to Mayo, the sight of Star catching high ball is giving me nightmares already, but overall I think Mayo have the edge in most departments.
They are not to far behind Kerry in the forwards too if you ask me.
The marquee forward is injury free and having a superb season, Andy Moran and Dillion are chipping in as is Doherty.

Keegan is an obvious loss, but hopefully Barrett can take on that role.

Again I think Kerry will have to rely on a lot of guys young and old coming with their A game.

If Horan has his head screwed on and they get their game plan correct then I'd expect a comfortable enough Mayo win in the end.

keane2097

I would probably have scoffed at the idea of Donaghy starting this time last week, but we were on top when Mayo sat back in the first half before the red card, and Donaghy in there would force them into the same thing again.

The more I think of it the more I think I'd be happy to see it.

keane2097

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

If Horan has his head screwed on and they get their game plan correct then I'd expect a comfortable enough Mayo win in the end.

Would you not be worried on that front since it took a red card to save the players from another inept set up by the manager?

I think Horan should thank his lucky stars for David Coldrick this week tbh.

The_Honeybadger

keane2097 wrote: »

I would probably have scoffed at the idea of Donaghy starting this time last week, but we were on top when Mayo sat back in the first half before the red card, and Donaghy in there would force them into the same thing again.

The more I think of it the more I think I'd be happy to see it.

Was thinking the same thing myself, they would have to put a sweeper in there and hope to knock the ball away from him, and then they have JOD and Geaney (who is also good in the air) to worry about also.

If he doesn't start mayo will surely come at us all guns blazing from the start. Of course it is very possible that they won't be able to match their second half display again. Football can be funny like that.

Fr Tod Umptious

keane2097 wrote: »

I would probably have scoffed at the idea of Donaghy starting this time last week, but we were on top when Mayo sat back in the first half before the red card, and Donaghy in there would force them into the same thing again.

The more I think of it the more I think I'd be happy to see it.

Fell free to attack this opinion because I really don't know that much about tactics.

Here is my opinion on Donaghy starting.

Limerick is a much narrower pitch than CP.
Thus Kerry will not be able to use the wings as much to build attacks.
By being forced down the middle they play to Mayo's strong points.
If Mayo own midfield then Donaghey is not going to get the supply and will be forced to come into the middle, thus negating his influence on the edge of the square.

It was when Kelly started going back to the wings with the kickouts that they started pumping balls into the square.

Fr Tod Umptious

keane2097 wrote: »

Would you not be worried on that front since it took a red card to save the players from another inept set up by the manager?

I think Horan should thank his lucky stars for David Coldrick this week tbh.

Oh I'm scared s&%$less that Horan will get it wrong on the line.

keane2097

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Fell free to attack this opinion because I really don't know that much about tactics.

Here is my opinion on Donaghy starting.

Limerick is a much narrower pitch than CP.
Thus Kerry will not be able to use the wings as much to build attacks.
By being forced down the middle they play to Mayo's strong points.
If Mayo own midfield then Donaghey is not going to get the supply and will be forced to come into the middle, thus negating his influence on the edge of the square.

It was when Kelly started going back to the wings with the kickouts that they started pumping balls into the square.

Ha don't worry I'm mellow enough and interested in as many pouts of view as I can get!

What you're saying from a Kerry POV seems pretty likely to be true anyway in terms of the pitch size not helping us. I suppose we're both guilty of looking more at the other side than our own, where I was thinking that Mayo of the last two of years (along with most other teams) are pretty open to the same old high ball tactic that ruled the roost seven or eight years ago because the game has moved on to such a degree that nobody really uses it in the 06-07 style anymore.

We had all our problems Sunday when Mayo abandoned the overloading of their own full back line. When the half backs were given the license to rampage forward (5 down and with 14 there was no other choice) they put Kerry under huge pressure.

The one thing an inside line with Donaghy and JOD forces you to do is pack that FB line again, which seems like it could be an important tactic for us to foist upon Mayo.

What would be most interesting of all would be if we did that and you guys chose not to be dictated to and said "**** it, pump all the high ball you can get in and let's see if you can get enough"! That would make for some game!

corny

keane2097 wrote: »

The one thing an inside line with Donaghy and JOD forces you to do is pack that FB line again, which seems like it could be an important tactic for us to foist upon Mayo.

I wouldn't be certain of that.

Ger Cafferkey, despite being an All Star, is average under the high ball. Also, he was clearly injured towards the end of that game. Not trying to do Donaghy a disservice but it won't be like that next day assuming Cafferkey can't make it. A big man under instructions to break the ball away from Donaghy doesn't require a packed defence. One man sweeping up in front will give Mayo a decent advantage. Also, a more direct gameplan wastes the talents of JOD and Geaney in showing for the ball.

Donaghy has, or maybe had, a lot of football in him and isn't a one trick pony but when Kerry play Dublin i'm delighted when he comes on. O' Carrolll puts him in his pocket and Kerry start wasting possession. When they move the ball more methodically you have to work bloody hard to get it off them.

ciarriaithuaidh

corny wrote: »

I wouldn't be certain of that.

Ger Cafferkey, despite being an All Star, is average under the high ball. Also, he was clearly injured towards the end of that game. Not trying to do Donaghy a disservice but it won't be like that next day assuming Cafferkey can't make it. A big man under instructions to break the ball away from Donaghy doesn't require a packed defence. One man sweeping up in front will give Mayo a decent advantage. Also, a more direct gameplan wastes the talents of JOD and Geaney in showing for the ball.

Donaghy has, or maybe had, a lot of football in him and isn't a one trick pony but when Kerry play Dublin i'm delighted when he comes on. O' Carrolll puts him in his pocket and Kerry start wasting possession. When they move the ball more methodically you have to work bloody hard to get it off them.

O'Carroll was dominated in the air by Donaghy in 2011 final..but let's not get ahead of ourselves!

sammy37

corny wrote: »

I wouldn't be certain of that.

Ger Cafferkey, despite being an All Star, is average under the high ball. Also, he was clearly injured towards the end of that game. Not trying to do Donaghy a disservice but it won't be like that next day assuming Cafferkey can't make it. A big man under instructions to break the ball away from Donaghy doesn't require a packed defence. One man sweeping up in front will give Mayo a decent advantage. Also, a more direct gameplan wastes the talents of JOD and Geaney in showing for the ball.

Donaghy has, or maybe had, a lot of football in him and isn't a one trick pony but when Kerry play Dublin i'm delighted when he comes on. O' Carrolll puts him in his pocket and Kerry start wasting possession. When they move the ball more methodically you have to work bloody hard to get it off them.

Donaghy probably would have been man of the match in 2011 all ireland final had kerry won so i dont know where you got that carroll had him in his pocket from to be honest.

keane2097

corny wrote: »

I wouldn't be certain of that.

Ger Cafferkey, despite being an All Star, is average under the high ball. Also, he was clearly injured towards the end of that game. Not trying to do Donaghy a disservice but it won't be like that next day assuming Cafferkey can't make it. A big man under instructions to break the ball away from Donaghy doesn't require a packed defence. One man sweeping up in front will give Mayo a decent advantage. Also, a more direct gameplan wastes the talents of JOD and Geaney in showing for the ball.

Donaghy has, or maybe had, a lot of football in him and isn't a one trick pony but when Kerry play Dublin i'm delighted when he comes on. O' Carrolll puts him in his pocket and Kerry start wasting possession. When they move the ball more methodically you have to work bloody hard to get it off them.

The obvious question here is if Cafferkey is so overrated (and I agree that he is), who exactly would Mayo try to mark Donaghy with that they would be confident in a one on one situation?

We saw what happened in 2012 when they tried to use Kevin Keane in that role, and having come on for Cafferkey on Sunday it appears he's still their second choice in that spot.

Redsoxfan

Can anyone confirm the respective pitch sizes (Croke Park vs Gaelic Grounds)?

I've seen each listed as:

Gaelic Grounds L 137 metres W 82 metres
Croke Park L 144 metres W 86 metres

keane2097

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Can anyone confirm the respective pitch sizes (Croke Park vs Gaelic Grounds)?

I've seen each listed as:

Gaelic Grounds L 137 metres W 82 metres
Croke Park L 144 metres W 86 metres

That's what's on wikipedia alright.

If wiki is accurate GG is as wide as Fitzgerald's Stadium, but a good bit shorter.

Fr Tod Umptious

keane2097 wrote: »

The obvious question here is if Cafferkey is so overrated (and I agree that he is), who exactly would Mayo try to mark Donaghy with that they would be confident in a one on one situation?

We saw what happened in 2012 when they tried to use Kevin Keane in that role, and having come on for Cafferkey on Sunday it appears he's still their second choice in that spot.

That full back line is a huge worry for Mayo

Cafferkey is not in the best of form and there is little cover.

One suggestion is that Mayo put SOS on Donaghey.

Then again Mayo could just ignore Donaghey altogether, i.e don't pack the backs or try to play a sweeper system.
Get on with their own game of winning the breaks and run at Kerry at every opportunity, and deal with Donaghey if and when he gets the ball.

Risky but we saw last week how over complication with tactics hampered Mayo.

yop

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That full back line is a huge worry for Mayo

Cafferkey is not in the best of form and there is little cover.

One suggestion is that Mayo put SOS on Donaghey.

Then again Mayo could just ignore Donaghey altogether, i.e don't pack the backs or try to play a sweeper system.
Get on with their own game of winning the breaks and run at Kerry at every opportunity, and deal with Donaghey if and when he gets the ball.

Risky but we saw last week how over complication with tactics hampered Mayo.

Was our downfall in the 1st half, if we change our game to stop Kerry then we will lose. Play to your strengths.

D'Agger

yop wrote: »

Was our downfall in the 1st half, if we change our game to stop Kerry then we will lose. Play to your strengths.

True, however with James O'Donoghue proving to be Kerrys main strength this year - trying to nullify him wasn't a bad call at the time. Most people outside of Kerry...and perhaps a good few within Kerry last week would have told you that if you stop O'Donoghue you've Kerry half beaten. Horan could nearly be happy with the red as it forced him to ditch a tactic that wasn't working. On the flip side - if Horan had started orthodox and JOD had a stormer - he'd have been lambasted for being naive enough to leave a player who's shoe in for POTY, too much space.

Fr Tod Umptious

D'Agger wrote: »

True, however with James O'Donoghue proving to be Kerrys main strength this year - trying to nullify him wasn't a bad call at the time. Most people outside of Kerry...and perhaps a good few within Kerry last week would have told you that if you stop O'Donoghue you've Kerry half beaten. Horan could nearly be happy with the red as it forced him to ditch a tactic that wasn't working. On the flip side - if Horan had started orthodox and JOD had a stormer - he'd have been lambasted for being naive enough to leave a player who's shoe in for POTY, too much space.

I'd say "the marquee forward" and a few Dubs would have something to say about that before the year is out.

You are correct though on the other points, Horan had to have a plan to limit JOD.

keane2097

I don't think anyone will touch JOD for POTY if he plays well again Saturday rightly or wrongly.

He's the golden boy this year.

ProudDUB

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think anyone will touch JOD for POTY if he plays well again Saturday rightly or wrongly.

I don't think that you can say that, when the second semi final hasn't even been played yet. Even if JO'D has a big game on Saturday, a Mayo lad, or one of the Dublin or Donegal big names could have a big game this weekend too. If they then go on to have another big game in the final & their county wins Sam, they they will probably get it, regardless of what JO'D does on Saturday. He is definitely the front runner, but it's all still to play for imo.

keane2097

Obviously it's all conjecture but what I'm exactly saying is that another big performance on Saturday and he will get it regardless. Just my gut feeling base on the various media narratives, not saying he should or shouldn't.

In fairness he will probably have had more outstanding performances in the champ than anyone else at that rate anyway.

D'Agger

ProudDUB wrote: »

I don't think that you can say that, when the second semi final hasn't even been played yet. Even if JO'D has a big game on Saturday, a Mayo lad, or one of the Dublin or Donegal big names could have a big game this weekend too. If they then go on to have another big game in the final & their county wins Sam, they they will probably get it, regardless of what JO'D does on Saturday. He is definitely the front runner, but it's all still to play for imo.

This is true - just going with my gut that I think he'll get it, he still has a game or possibly two, as do other players but I think he's the front runner atm.

As poor as Cork were, his performance in the Munster final was Canavan-esque. Not sure if this is correct or not but a friend told me before throw in the other day that James had taken 14 out of 17 attempted scores in the Championship so far which is impressive if true - did a quick search there and couldn't find anything to back it up though

ProudDUB

keane2097 wrote: »

Obviously it's all conjecture but what I'm exactly saying is that another big performance on Saturday and he will get it regardless. Just my gut feeling base on the various media narratives, not saying he should or shouldn't.

In fairness he will probably have had more outstanding performances in the champ than anyone else at that rate anyway.

Do you honestly think that if Cillian O'Connor, Bernard Brogan Aidan O'Shea or Michael Murphy have monster games this weekend AND, they do it again in the All Ireland final that their county wins, that one of them won't win it? They will, regardless of what JO'D does this weekend.

Redsoxfan

ProudDUB wrote: »

Do you honestly think that if Cillian O'Connor, Bernard Brogan Aidan O'Shea or Michael Murphy have monster games this weekend AND, they do it again in the All Ireland final that their county wins, that one of them won't win it? They will, regardless of what JO'D does this weekend.

If Michael Murphy has a monster game this weekend, he's nailed on for an All Star alright.

At wing back

Stoner

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't think anyone will touch JOD for POTY if he plays well again Saturday rightly or wrongly.

He's the golden boy this year.

Wouldn't agree. Depending on results definitely, but If Donegal win it might be Murphy (they are not far off the same age and Murphy only has one all-star so far) , if Dublin win it might be Flynn, if its Mayo O'Connor or AOS could get it too.

No way JOD is a definate, he's only played one good team all year and in that game he was not MOTM and didn't deserve it either.
Donegal and Dublin both have potentially two big games to hammer down a POTY, as do Mayo.
I would agree if you said he was Kerry's only chance for POTY and Munsters golden boy.

Depending on how mayo do in the replay I'd see O'Connor in with a big shout, I don't think a Dub will get it. O'Connor could be B Brogan from 2010.
JOD is one of five likely to get it, but there's no way he'll get it if O'Connor gets to deliver as he did on Sunday in two more games IMHO.

JOD AOS and Murphy are all around the same age. I get the impression sometimes that JOD is considered to be younger. I think AOS and Murphy have achieved more in the game and JOD might need to wait a couple of years.

davegrohl48

D'Agger wrote: »

True, however with James O'Donoghue proving to be Kerrys main strength this year - trying to nullify him wasn't a bad call at the time. Most people outside of Kerry...and perhaps a good few within Kerry last week would have told you that if you stop O'Donoghue you've Kerry half beaten. Horan could nearly be happy with the red as it forced him to ditch a tactic that wasn't working.nOn the flip side - if Horan had started orthodox and JOD had a stormer - he'd have been lambasted for being naive enough to leave a player who's shoe in for POTY, too much space.

I still think Mayo's coverage of Jod was average. Never noticed good tight direct coverage n often Higgins was loose. Jod had 1-3 n several passes. Won most ball that he made runs for. Keith Higgins was impressive with his tackling strength in that he stopped up Jod when he ran at Higgins direct. But it was very close to being 2-3 scored n Horan is quoted in an interview regarding Higgins "I thought he won that particular battle". Manager always back his players true, but Jod was not all that well clamped down on. Jod will be player of the year he has shot 78% on average in his last three championship games including wides/blocked/dropped short. If he is not player of the year crazy stuff. No one approaching that level of performance. Shooting 60% is good, 78% is Roger Federer in his best form or Tiger Woods at peak. Simply the upper end of elite.

ProudDUB

Scoring goals, kicking the lights out points wise, pulling the strings at half forward (a la Alan Brogan in 2011) putting in an imperious display in midfield (a la Aidan O'Shea against Donegal last year) and being an impenetrable powerhouse at the back, are things that win you footballer of the year. And you need to be at your absolute peak of your powers in All Ireland semi finals and finals too.

The numerical stats don't amount to a hill 'o beans imo. Or rather, they do, but the voters pay more attention to the more obvious stuff, such as goals scored in the big games, vital points kicked at vital moments, blocks made, vital catches at vital moments, big plays made etc etc. Two more games like Sunday & Kieran Donaghy has it in the bag. Who wudda thunk? :P