Kerry GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post #4167

seligehgit

BKWDR wrote: »

He did a fairly bad job in 2012 then , fairly sure Dublin were robbed with Mayo's antics that day.

And in 2013, taking over a minute to take a free at the end of stoppage time is hardly the referee's problem...

The people who look at Sundays epic game and say that the referee did an excellent job are by far the majority. The rest is sour grapes....

I'd hardly go as far as saying they were robbed that day.

homerjay2005

mickeyk wrote: »

I can tell ye that that is not the attitude of most Kerry people. Yes we're disappointed but apart from a few people I've not heard anybody claiming that the ref robbed us or the fact that he was working in Dublin is an issue. It seems to be people outside the county making most of the noise. He made some honest errors during the game but that's the case in almost any game.

i think Dublin were by far the better team, but the ref made a crucial error that cost Kerry a replay.

Dublin would have won that replay but it doesnt take away from the reffing error and Gough should never have been allowed to ref that game.

all irrelevent however, as i believe Dublin are 6 points better than Kerry at least.

The Talking Bread

BKWDR wrote: »

He did a fairly bad job in 2012 then , fairly sure Dublin were robbed with Mayo's antics that day.


The people who look at Sundays epic game and say that the referee did an excellent job are by far the majority. The rest is sour grapes....

ha, is that the game you were 6 points down at half time, the game you went 20 minutes at one stage w/o scoring, the day Mayo lost two of their best players to injuries at pivotal times, the day only 3 of your players scored from play, the day Clarke had a stormer and Brogan didnt score from play.

Mayo were well punished for their fouling at the end, they almost let Dublin back into it with frees but Dublin were no angels and indiscipline in the first 50 minutes as well as fitness/fatigue cost them. Better team on that day won and to say you were robbed is laughable.# Most Dub fans said it on the day so not sure why 6 years on that has changed.

i also remember the Dubs fans booing every Mayo free. Classy!

(not a Mayo fan, but was a memorable game)

ProudDUB

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i think Dublin were by far the better team, but the ref made a crucial error that cost Kerry a replay.

Dublin would have won that replay but it doesnt take away from the reffing error and Gough should never have been allowed to ref that game.

all irrelevent however, as i believe Dublin are 6 points better than Kerry at least.

No, it didn't. Dublin would have won by 1 pt and not 2. (I presume you are talking about the Crowley incident.) Feel free to ignore the hit on McMahon, that if Dean Rock converted the resulting free, would have put the winning margin back to 2 pts.

People are getting fierce selective on what they want to give Gough a hard time for. A lot of cherry picking going on.

PaddyWilliams

ProudDUB wrote: »

No, it didn't. Dublin would have won by 1 pt and not 2. (I presume you are talking about the Crowley incident.) Feel free to ignore the hit on McMahon, that if Dean Rock converted the resulting free, would have put the winning margin back to 2 pts.

People are getting fierce selective on what they want to give Gough a hard time for. A lot of cherry picking going on.

Well, I would have said it could have resulted in a draw. It was a 2 point swing, assuming(!) Kerry got a point from that sequence of play. There would have been no Dublin score and scores would have finished level.

ProudDUB

PaddyWilliams wrote: »

Well, I would have said it could have resulted in a draw. It was a 2 point swing, assuming(!) Kerry got a point from that sequence of play. There would have been no Dublin score and scores would have finished level.

There you go again, sidestepping the hit on McMahon & the free that should have resulted from it. (Fierce hard to shake off is our Philly. :P ) You can't focus in on the Crowley non free incident and, say what would have happened if it had been awarded and, ignore the other one.

Why wouldn't we have scored again if Crowley got the free? Whether we got the ball back thanks to Kev Mc, or we got the ball back from a kick out, there were still nearly 3 minutes of play left. There was plenty of time to get another score, even if Bryan Sheehan took his sweet time in taking the Kerry free, which he probably would have.

Plus, after our last score, Kerry got the ball back again, only for Bryan Sheehan to turn the ball over on the edge of the D. Then James O'Donoghue dragged Ciaran Kilkenny down, resulting in a yellow card that ate up nearly a minute of injury time, that Kerry would have been better served, in trying to get the ball back in. So this "oh, we would have gotten a draw, but for the hit on Crowley" narrative is very blinkered viewpoint to take imo.

The Talking Bread

PaddyWilliams wrote: »

Well, I would have said it could have resulted in a draw. It was a 2 point swing, assuming(!) Kerry got a point from that sequence of play. There would have been no Dublin score and scores would have finished level.

I think he is trying to counter argue the butterfly effect of what would have been a fantastic but ultimately easy sideline free from Rock score had Philly won the free against Crowley earlier. Sure the game would have been over then of course and that tackle in the end wouldn't matter................................................



Listen I am all for excusing Gough for not perceiving/being able to fully see that foul at the end but this argument that we would have won anyway because in the end Dublin won by 2 points or we would have won because Rock would have scored the free from Crowley earlier is nonsense talk. If you went into ifs and buts like that and filtered through the match the match could have went any way, who knows, Kerry could have won by ten points if they got given every single by the book possible free or maybe Dublin by ten points if they did.

Ifs and buts are nonsense generally but when speaking about a free at the death that should/would have been given had the ref perceived it properly or had a better view of it it is a fairly legitimate argument that Kerry were unlucky not to draw. Who knows, they may have even won.

Ifs and buts in a game like Sundays are pointless generally.







Can someone confirm that I am correct/incorrect as to the whereabouts of Crowley's foul on Philly. From what I remember, it would not have been an easy score, to say the least.

dobman88

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I







Can someone confirm that I am correct/incorrect as to the whereabouts of Crowley's foul on Philly. From what I remember, it would not have been an easy score, to say the least.

Well it was Mahony that hit him for a start. And no. It wasn't easy especially for a right footer

The Talking Bread

dobman88 wrote: »

Well it was Mahony that hit him for a start. And no. It wasn't easy especially for a right footer

sorry, I did know it was AOM of course, Crowleys name was just on my tongue at the time I wrote the post.

Yeah, I thought so, the poster is writing as if it was a guaranteed knock over!

DDC1990

dobman88 wrote:

Well it was Mahony that hit him for a start. And no. It wasn't easy especially for a right footer

Was it not right on the sideline over 60m out?

I know Rock is a good free taker but that was far from a scoring chance IMO.

Actually the worst non call was the foul on David Moran straight after half time, which led to the ball landing short of DO'S. Instead of a free 45m out for Kerry it ended up with Dublin intercepting and going up the field and scoring. Not only did it cut the gap to 4 but Darren O'Sullivan got injured in the chase back and had to come off.

Small insignificant missed call at the time but had pretty big consequence on the game.

Still these things happen. That's football.

The Talking Bread

ProudDUB wrote: »

There you go again, sidestepping the hit on McMahon & the free that should have resulted from it. (Fierce hard to shake off is our Philly. :P ) You can't focus in on the Crowley non free incident and, say what would have happened if it had been awarded and, ignore the other one.

Why wouldn't we have scored again if Crowley got the free? Whether we got the ball back thanks to Kev Mc, or we got the ball back from a kick out, there were still nearly 3 minutes of play left. There was plenty of time to get another score, even if Bryan Sheehan took his sweet time in taking the Kerry free, which he probably would have.

Plus, after our last score, Kerry got the ball back again, only for Bryan Sheehan to turn the ball over on the edge of the D. Then James O'Donoghue dragged Ciaran Kilkenny down, resulting in a yellow card that ate up nearly a minute of injury time, that Kerry would have been better served, in trying to get the ball back in. So this ' oh, we would have gotten a draw, but for the hit on Crowley' narrative is very blinkered viewpoint to take imo.

And why wouldn't have Kerry scored, if thats your logic! It is extremely more probable that it would have ended in a draw had Kerry equalised at that point. In fact I would have fancied them to beat them but that would have been merely on my human nature regarding teams with that bit of momentum and lift of spirit when they equalise late on and the reverse mentality that may have fell on Dublin. Cluxton would have had another kickout to take which he was struggling with somewhat all day and Kerry would have been pressing whilst also being able to maintain a bit of discipline.

Again ifs and buts. But the exact same sequence of play wouldn't have occurred. So why you point out post incidents after the "what would have been equaliser" is beyond me!! Who knows, Dublin could have even gone up and scored two goals after that "free" JOD may have got sent off for celebrating, McManamon for the original foul would have been sent off, the ref may have got hit by a programme, rendering him unconscious and the game abandoned!



This is such a silly debate!! The game was won and lost on the day.

ProudDUB

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Ifs and buts are nonsense generally but when speaking about a free at the death that should/would have been given had the ref perceived it properly or had a better view of it it is a fairly legitimate argument that Kerry were unlucky not to draw. Who knows, they may have even won.

All frees count the same on the scoreboard. The one that is given/not given in the first minute of the game, is just as important as the one given in the last minute of the game. It's easy to point to frees given/not given in injury time, as being what a game turns upon. Those incidents are what stays freshest in your head, as the one given/not given over an hour ago, fade from the memory. Eaten bread is soon forgotten and all that. That doesn't mean that Kerry have any more of a legitimate argument for a draw, as if the Philly free was given when it should have been, Kerry should have been down by two pts at the time of the Crowley incident, not by one. So the Dubs have just as legitimate an argument for a draw not really being an option, even if Crowley was awarded the free.

The Talking Bread

But Rock wouldn't have scored that free, bar a maurice Fitz style inspiration ! It wss 60 yards out at the sideline! You are missing the point!

The Talking Bread

Metres, not yards!0

DDC1990

Having watched the incident back, Aidan hit Philly on the 45m (not 60m as I thought) out near the sideline.

A 60/40 (maybe 70/30 for Rock in the form that he was in).

However, I think we might be doing Aidan an injustice. The slow motion angle that RTE showed, made it look like Aidan smashed him in the chest or even the head area. In real time, the camera just jumps to the collision right as it happens. Beside this being exceptional timing from the camera crew, it might also show that Aidan's timing isn't so bad himself. Aidan's contact appears to be on the shoulder (Philly actually slowed his run and put his hands out to stop himself being smashed, which is why his hands appear not to be in the picture). If Philly hadn't had his hands out, the hit may well have been on the chest and he would have got the free.

After the stick i've been giving Gough, it might have been a great call.

Obviously one still image doesn't tell a story, and Aidan was going to take Philly regardless of whether he hit his shoulder or chest or head.
It's a pity there isn't another angle to the Crowley incident. It' might show that Kevin McManamon got it spot on as well?

EDIT: Even watching the slow motion pictures, because of the way Philly's arms are, O'Mahoney at no stage makes contact with the chest area, it's all arm and shoulder.

Dyr

DDC1990 wrote: »

However, I think we might be doing Aidan an injustice. ]

We're not

btw where's the ball in that tackle?

Stoner

Bambi wrote:

btw where's the ball in that tackle?

But Philly has his hands up !
It was 100 a free they both were , and he measured him up for it too. Guys are clutching at straws here in all fairness.

corny

It was funny watching O'Mahony after that collision. The sheepish look to check everything was kosher with the ref. Couldn't believe it himself he got away with it.

Stoner

He was some player in his day and is still some operator, as we were saying he'd a good game

DDC1990

Bambi wrote:

btw where's the ball in that tackle?

You are allowed to hit a guy shoulder to shoulder while challenging for the ball.

Dyr

DDC1990 wrote: »

You are allowed to hit a guy shoulder to shoulder while challenging for the ball.

None of which is happening in that picture

PaddyWilliams

Bambi wrote: »

None of which is happening in that picture

Is that big, white blur in front of their legs not the ball?

PaddyWilliams

ProudDUB wrote: »

There you go again, sidestepping the hit on McMahon & the free that should have resulted from it. (Fierce hard to shake off is our Philly. :P ) You can't focus in on the Crowley non free incident and, say what would have happened if it had been awarded and, ignore the other one.

Why wouldn't we have scored again if Crowley got the free? Whether we got the ball back thanks to Kev Mc, or we got the ball back from a kick out, there were still nearly 3 minutes of play left. There was plenty of time to get another score, even if Bryan Sheehan took his sweet time in taking the Kerry free, which he probably would have.

Plus, after our last score, Kerry got the ball back again, only for Bryan Sheehan to turn the ball over on the edge of the D. Then James O'Donoghue dragged Ciaran Kilkenny down, resulting in a yellow card that ate up nearly a minute of injury time, that Kerry would have been better served, in trying to get the ball back in. So this "oh, we would have gotten a draw, but for the hit on Crowley" narrative is very blinkered viewpoint to take imo.

I'm focusing on that incident alone, not setting variables.
Plus, all the things you've pointed out that happened after that, may not have happened, as everyone knows that a vital score at a time like that can raise a team up (ala 2011).

It really doesn't matter now anyways, Dublin won, fair and square. I'm not really arguing that point. Just pointing out that what a poster earlier said, was true, regarding a replay.

Stoner

PaddyWilliams wrote:

Is that big, white blur in front of their legs not the ball?

Seriously. Either give the win or don't, why not just say you think kerry were robbed, instead of trying to occupy two positions at once.

O'Mahony set up McMahon and never went for the ball. I was beside that . It was shown on the TV I recorded it , they covered it on the highlights I watched it. Have a look at it, should be on rte player. He didn't try to kill him he just horsed him out if it and didn't give a hoot about where the ball was , happens all the time, but it's a free, and it happened before the McManamon one, so there's that ridiculous argument right back at you.

This game was not decided on the difference between two frees that should both have been given

How many times can you say Dublin deserved the win , except maybe the replay .... but Dublin deserved it etc but but but

This behaviour Paddy no matter what way you dress it up, it's being a bad loser imo, that's how it appears, you're giving and taking at the same time, it's poor form imo

DDC1990

Provided that he has at least one foot on the
ground, a player may make a shoulder to
shoulder charge on an opponent-
(a)
who is in possession of the ball, or
(b)
who is playing the ball, or
(c)
when both players are moving in the
direction of the ball to play it.

Yeah in fairness, the "to play it" part of the rule shows it should have been a free.

I hold my hands up here. I knew you could horse a lad out of it, in and around the ball, but you have to be aiming to play it. Aidan had no intention really. He definitely hit Philly shoulder to shoulder but it was a free according to the rules.

The Talking Bread

Stoner wrote: »

Seriously. Either give the win or don't, why not just say you think kerry were robbed, instead of trying to occupy two positions at once.

O'Mahony set up McMahon and never went for the ball. I was beside that . It was shown on the TV I recorded it , they covered it on the highlights I watched it. Have a look at it, should be on rte player. He didn't try to kill him he just horsed him out if it and didn't give a hoot about where the ball was , happens all the time, but it's a free, and it happened before the McManamon one, so there's that ridiculous argument right back at you.

This game was not decided on the difference between two frees that should both have been given

How many times can you say Dublin deserved the win , except maybe the replay .... but Dublin deserved it etc but but but

This behaviour Paddy no matter what way you dress it up, it's being a bad loser imo, that's how it appears, you're giving and taking at the same time, it's poor form imo

that's harsh, he is only analysing that event at a pivotal time of the game like all fans do. He isn't saying that they deserved or didnt deserve a replay, nor disregarding Dublin. Just pointing out that incident did happen at the end of the game and on another day the ref would have seen it properly and given the free which more than likely would have pushed a replay.

From what I see he is just accepting swings and roundabouts, ifs and buts and handing credit to Dublin but also pointing out the game could have been a replay had the foul been spotted.

Its all butterfly effect and sliding doors, but that doesn't make it an invalid point, especially when it was a clear free.

Very OTT reaction.

PaddyWilliams

The Talking Bread wrote: »

that's harsh, he is only analysing that event at a pivotal time of the game like all fans do. He isn't saying that they deserved or didnt deserve a replay, nor disregarding Dublin. Just pointing out that incident did happen at the end of the game and on another day the ref would have seen it properly and given the free which more than likely would have pushed a replay.

From what I see he is just accepting swings and roundabouts, ifs and buts and handing credit to Dublin but also pointing out the game could have been a replay had the foul been spotted.

Its all butterfly effect and sliding doors, but that doesn't make it an invalid point, especially when it was a clear free.

Very OTT reaction.

Thank you for putting that so eloquently. That's exactly what I'm doing.

I did point out that I was not putting in other variables (including the McMahon incident), just focusing on that one thing. Just backing up what an earlier poster said. I'm not really into if's and ands (if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle blah blah). The result is as it stands and Dublin were deserved winners. I live in Dublin and have taken my ragging in good spirit. I feel Kerry left it behind them at the end of the first half and Dublin took advantage and really earned that victory. I'm not being a bad loser. There is such a thing as a bad winner too you know :D

Dyr

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Its all butterfly effect and sliding doors, but that doesn't make it an invalid point, especially when it was a clear free.

Very OTT reaction.

You can quote lao tzu, donnie darko, schrodinger and whoever else rocks your alternate universe where the ref will give kerry frees all day while ignoring their fouls but its still just the usual whataboutery yerra whinging that we have to listen to every time the kingdom are bet.

The Talking Bread

Bambi wrote: »

You can quote lao tzu, donnie darko, schrodinger and whoever else rocks your alternate universe where the ref will give kerry frees all day while ignoring their fouls but its still just the usual whataboutery yerra whinging that we have to listen to every time the kingdom are bet.

???? What are you talking about. I don't need Donnie Darko to use a commonly referenced phrase. Smart a$$.

I'm not from Kerry. I am a complete neutral.Again you are completely missing the point (probably intentionally, mind) and going on the ultra defensive. Dublin fans seem obsessed with requiring reassurance and reverence as to how good they are.

Any team that loses a tight match like that will point to ifs and buts. You would swear you won by ten points. Noone is dismissing Dublins performance but just because they won doesnt mean Kerry were never in it.

Have a civilised chat perhaps, won't do you any harm.

ProudDUB

The Talking Bread wrote: »

???? What are you talking about. I don't need Donnie Darko to use a commonly referenced phrase. Smart a$$.

I'm not from Kerry. I am a complete neutral.Again you are completely missing the point (probably intentionally, mind) and going on the ultra defensive. Dublin fans seem obsessed with requiring reassurance and reverence as to how good they are.

Any team that loses a tight match like that will point to ifs and buts. You would swear you won by ten points. Noone is dismissing Dublins performance but just because they won doesnt mean Kerry were never in it.

Have a civilised chat perhaps, won't do you any harm.

In just two posts, you have called others uncivilized, OTT, smart asses, deliberately missing the point & obsessed with requiring reverence. You are hardly the one to be lecturing others on the tone of their posts. :rolleyes:



In a nutshell, the ref on the day let a lot of things go. He should have blown for both the Crowley and McMahon hits, or he should have let them both go. He let them both go. Kerry got away with a foul and they were denied a free. Same with Dublin.

So it is a tad close minded to propose the narrative that Kerry were unfairly duped out of a shot at a replay, when you look only at the free that they were denied & not at the foul that they got away with. The two canceled each other out imo. I think that is bog standard common sense, no matter what side of the discussion you are on. If people choose to convert that into a silly "Oh all the Dubs think this, all the Dubs think that..." statement, knock yerselves out, but it doesn't detract from the truth.