Kerry GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post #4167

Kerrydude1981

One of the all time greats calls it a day,

Thanks for everything Colm.

cms88

Will we ever again see his likes?

In an era where fitness and power is valued more than skill he was probably one of the last of a bygone times.

robbiezero

Gary Gurny wrote: »

I think we should play a dummy team. Let the under 21s tog out in preparation for their all ireland semi altogether, dont see the point in revealing our tactics this early in the year. Better off keeping your cards held firmly to your chest at this time of the year and peaking for the autumn IMO.

It would be sad to see a Kerry team do this and I very much doubt they will.
I also don't think they are in any way sure of what tactics will work against this Dublin team so not much point in hiding tactics you are not even sure will work. Tactics are not going to beat them, they can play it any which way till Tuesday.

They will go bald headed for it and I hope we see a really good game and less of the negativity that permeated the last game.

ShamoBuc

A ridiculously talented player.

acequion

So,so sad all day that Gooch has decided to hang up the Kerry jersey but we'll always treasure the memories.

We've been blessed by his magic so many times and how lucky we were to have such a talent in our proud green and gold.

homerjay2005

anybody willing to have a go at picking the starting 15 for the first round of the championship?


the departures of Gooch, Marc and Aidan shows just exactly how much of a rebuilding operation is ahead of us in the next 12-36 months.

BonnieSituation

homerjay2005 wrote: »

anybody willing to have a go at picking the starting 15 for the first round of the championship?


the departures of Gooch, Marc and Aidan shows just exactly how much of a rebuilding operation is ahead of us in the next 12-36 months.

In fairness the last time ye were "rebuilding" ye won an All-Ireland.

Kerrydude1981

homerjay2005 wrote: »

anybody willing to have a go at picking the starting 15 for the first round of the championship?


the departures of Gooch, Marc and Aidan shows just exactly how much of a rebuilding operation is ahead of us in the next 12-36 months.

Of course the three retirements are a massive loss but each done more then enough in the jersey so I think the time is right for each to step away

At the same time I think its an exciting time in Kerry football,we have bags of raw talent coming through and its going to be interesting to see how it all pans out in the next two years

homerjay2005

BonnieSituation wrote: »

In fairness the last time ye were "rebuilding" ye won an All-Ireland.

yes but this is completely different now - back then, all the lads coming in were 22-24, now our latest crop are 19 and 20, theres a big different in terms of maturity.

i think it will be another 2-3 years before we begin to see the rewards from the recent underage success.

Bonniedog

Will ye be togging on Sunday?

Mr. Incognito

Comparison I did on Gooch and Brogan on the Gooch thread -some of hte information is not available from my searches

I found it interesting to compare them as they are exactly the same age.

2002 Gooch
Munster v Limerick 1 Point from play
Munster v Cork draw 0 point from play
Munster Replay v Cork 1 Point from play
Qualifiers v Wicklow 1 point from play
Qualifers v Fermanagh 1 point from play
Qualifiers v Kildare 1-1 from play
Quarter Final v Galway 4 points from Play
Semi v Cork 1-5 from play
Final v Armagh 2 points from Play

O Cinneide was the designated free taker along with Mike Frank Russell. Dublin lost to Armagh by a point and R Cosgrove was their top scorer that year.

2003 Gooch
Munster v Tipp 5 Points from play
Munster v Limerick 1 point from play
Quarter Final v Roscommon 4 points from Play
Semi v Tyrone 1 point from play

O Cinneide was the designated free taker

2004 Gooch
Munster v Clare 1 Point from play
Munster v Cork 3 points from play
Munster Final Draw v Limerick 2 points from play
Munster Final Replay I cannot find stats
Quarter Final v Dublin 4 points from Play 1 Free
Semi v Down 7 points from play
Final v May 1-5 (1 Free) Man of Match

O Cinneide/ Mike Frank Russell was the designated free takers


2005 Gooch
Munster v Clare 1-5 from play
Munster v Limerick 2-5(4f)
Munster v Cork 2 points from play
QF v May 1-1 from play
SF v Cork 5 points from play
All Ireland Final v Tyrone 5 points from play joint top scorer with O Mulligan

Mike Frank Russell designated free taker.

2006 Gooch
Munster v Waterford 2 points from play
Munster v Tipp 1 point from play
Munster drawn final Cork can’t find stats but he was on some frees. Min 1 point.
Replay 1 point from play
Qualifiers v Longford 1-3 from play
QF v Armagh 3 points (1f)
SFv Cork 4 points from play
Final v Mayo 1-2 from play

Mike Frank Russell designated free taker.

2007 Gooch
Munster v Waterford 5 Points (2f)
Munster v Cork 1-2 from play
Qualifiers v Longford 1-3 from play
QF v Monaghan 3 points from play
SFv Dublin 3 points (2 f)
Final v Cork 1-6 (2f)

Mike Frank/ Sheehan and Gooch sharing frees.

2008 Gooch
Munster v Clare 1 goal from play
Munster v Cork 3 points (2f)
R3 v Monaghan 2 points (1f)
QF v Galway 3 points (1f)
SF v Cork 3 points (2f)
Final v Tyrone 6 points (3f) top scorer

Sheehan/ Gooch designated free takers

2009 Gooch

Munster v Cork 3 points from play
Munster v Cork replay 4 points (4 frees)
R2 Longford 5 points (cant find breakdown of frees)
R3 Sligo 2 points (cant find breakdown of frees)
R4 v Antrim 4 points (4f)
QF v Dublin 1-7 (4f)
SF v Meath 3 points (2f)
Final v Cork 6 points

Primary Free Taker. All Ireland Series Top Scorer. No All Star.

2010 Gooch
Munster v Tipp 4 points from play
Munster v Cork 6 points (4f)
Munster v Limerick 1-5 (3f)
QF v Down 7 points (5f)

Shared Frees with Sheehan

2011 Gooch
v Tipp 5 points (2 f)
v Limerick 7 points (1f)
v Cork 1 Free
QF v Limerick 3 points (2f)
SF v Mayo 1-7 (4f)
Final v Dublin 1-3 (2f)

Shared Frees with Sheehan

2012 Gooch
Munster v Tipp cant find full stats minimum of 2 points with one a free anyway
Munster v Cork 5 points (3 f)
R2 Westmeath 3 (2f)
R3 Tyrone 5 points (1f)
R4 Clare 1-04 from play
QF Donegal 4 points (2f)

Shared Frees with Sheehan

2013 Gooch
Munster v Tipp No Match report available (Kerry scored 2-19)
Munster v Waterford 4 points (2f)
Munster v Cork 1-03 (3f)
QF v Cavan 6 points (5f)
SF v Dublin 4 points (2f)

2014 Gooch
Injured and did not play

2015 Gooch
Munster v Tipp
Munster v Cork 1 point
Munster Replay v Cork no score
QF v Kildare 2-3 (1f)
SF v Tyrone 2 points (1f)
Final v Dublin no score

Frees between JOD and Sheehan

2016 Gooch

Munster v Clare 1-3 (1f)
Munster v Tipp no score
QF v Clare no score
SF v Dublin 5 points (4f)



______________________________________________

2007 B Brogan
Leinster v Meath unused sub
Leinster v Offaly unused sub
Leinster v Laois 1-1 from play
QF v Derry 3 points from play
SF v Kerry 1 point from play

2008 Brogan
Leinster v Louth unusued sub
Leinster v Westmeath no score (injured hamstring)
Leinster final didn’t play
QF v Tyrone subbed in for 3 points from play

2009 Brogan
Leinster v Meath 2 points from play
Leinster v Westmeath 2-8 (5f)
Leinster v Kildare 8 points (2f)
QF v Kerry 3 points (2f)

2010 Brogan
Leinster v Wexford 2-4 (1f)
Leinster v Meath 3 points (1f)
R4 Louth 3 points
QF v Tyrone 9 points (5f)
SF v Cork 1-7 (1f)

Primary free taker

2011Brogan
Leinster v Laois
Leinster v Kildare
Leinster v Wexford 3 points (1f)
QF v Tyrone 5 points (1f)
SF v Donegal nil
Final 6 points (4f)

Free taker with Cluxton on 45s and long range frees

2012
Leinster v Louth 2-5 (1f)
Leinster v Wexford 1 free
Leinster v Meath 1-7 (4f)
QF Laois 4 points (3f)
SF v Mayo 6 points (6f)

Primary free taker with Cluxton on long range

2013
Leinster v Westmeath 7 points (5f)
Leinster v Kildare 1-1
Leinster v Meath 1 free
QF v Cork 1 free.
SF v Kerry 6 points (2f)
Final v Mayo 2-3 (1f)

Shared frees with the rock. Cluxton on 45s and long rang frees

2014
Leinster v Laois no score
Leinster v Wexford 1f
Leinster v Meath 1-06 (3f)
QF v Monaghan 1-07 (6f)
SF v Donegal 3 points (1f)

Rotated with Cluxton on frees

2015
Leinster v Longford 1-6 from play
Leinster v Kildare 2-03 (cant find free stats)
Leinster v Westmeath 1-1 from play
QF v Fermanagh 1-6 from play
SF v Mayo 2 points
Final 2 points (1f)

Rock Primary free taker

2016
Leinster v Laois no score
Leinster v Meath 3 points
Leinster v Westmeath 1-4 from play
QF v Donegal no score
Semi v Kerry 2 points

Rock Primary free taker




ANALYSIS

Gooch
Scored consistently about 5 points a game for almost 12 seasons regardless of opponent.
His scoring was higher in high pressure games and was regularly the top scorer in finals regardless of opponent. In his later career took a lot of frees albeit sharing them to increase average. Only played Leinster opponents in the form of Kildare once and Kerry put a hiding on them of 7 goals and 16 points odd points with Gooch getting 2-3.

Brogan ran up huge scores in bursts in the Provincial series where Dublin were dominant.
2015 was particularly impressive. In his earlier career he took a lot of frees. Had a pretty poor 2016 and is likely on the wane. He had two impressive years in 2013 and 2015 where he scored highly in the business end of the championship.

CONCLUSION
While an argument can be made on purely statistical analysis that they are comparable I really don't think they are. Brogan scored. He was a beast at scoring and he did it well for a few seasons. However it didn't make Dublin competitive until other scoring players came around. You couldn'tt build a team around him.
Gooch by contrast made everyone around him better and got man of the match in 2011 in the Munster final against Cork despite not scoring from play along with keeping the scoring board ticking over. I don'tt believe that Gooch's contribution will ever be matched but of course I am biased.

I learned a lot about Dublin and Brogan from doing this exercise and enjoyed it. But most Dubs dont have the same knowledge of Kerry football

DDC1990

Two class players but Cooper has scored 9-92 from play from the Quarter final stages on.

Some people denied that he was a big time player!

keane2097

Honestly why would anyone waste time on an argument like this? We all have eyes.

corny

Why Cooper and Brogan? Why the comparison?

DDC1990

corny wrote:

Why Cooper and Brogan? Why the comparison?

Another poster in a different thread used Brogans better scoring aveage as a stick to beat Cooper with essentially saying he was overrated. That sparked off the debate AFAIK.

Looking agead to the match, any word on the injuries? Any chance of JOD, Enright or Young returning. Donaghy at the edge of the square?

keane2097

DDC1990 wrote: »

Another poster in a different thread used Brogans better scoring aveage as a stick to beat Cooper with essentially saying he was overrated. That sparked off the debate AFAIK.

Looking agead to the match, any word on the injuries? Any chance of JOD, Enright or Young returning. Donaghy at the edge of the square?

None of them

DDC1990

keane2097 wrote:

None of them

Jack Savage or Barry John with Geaney and O'Brien?

Stoner

Mr. Incognito wrote:

CONCLUSION While an argument can be made on purely statistical analysis that they are comparable I really don't think they are. Brogan scored. He was a beast at scoring and he did it well for a few seasons. However it didn't make Dublin competitive until other scoring players came around. You couldn'tt build a team around him. Gooch by contrast made everyone around him better and got man of the match in 2011 in the Munster final against Cork despite not scoring from play along with keeping the scoring board ticking over. I don'tt believe that Gooch's contribution will ever be matched but of course I am biased.

In all fairness this is a bit off. There were fantastic footballers on that kerry team. Star was a great partner for Gooch winning the ball he couldn't and feeding him. I agree that Gooch is a better forward but not the argument that a team was built around him, he had Galvin directing things, remember when he was the best player in the country and people use to say that when he played well Kerry played well.
Darragh O'Se , Mark and Thomas O'Shea, Galvin, Star all providing the muscle and winning the dirty ball.
Declan and Darren and Bryan Sheehan to help with the scoring. It was a great team with fantastic players to say that Gooch made that team is BS IMO. I don't expect anyone to agree with me here but some of the best defenders and possibly the best ball winning no 14 of all time were there to support Gooch.

This argument if you like it or not is the same as that old "luxury player" debate that was going around years ago.

Nidgeweasel

He was no Peter Canavan.

Bonniedog

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

He was no Peter Canavan.

Canavan was not a natural footballer. they only come from one part of the country.

tritium

Ah gooch was a super footballer. Canavan was fantastic imho but when youre comparing players like that theres a bit of the pele vs maradonna element to it. Better to just accept theyre on a different level to everyone else ( we'll look back on Dublin having zizou and messi in years to come though )

BonnieSituation

homerjay2005 wrote: »

yes but this is completely different now - back then, all the lads coming in were 22-24, now our latest crop are 19 and 20, theres a big different in terms of maturity.

i think it will be another 2-3 years before we begin to see the rewards from the recent underage success.

I think like most things the reports of death of Kerry's success have been greatly exaggerated. If ye aren't either in the AIF or missing out by the odd point in come September I will be shocked. (And naturally appalled in my case :P )

Stoner wrote: »

In all fairness this is a bit off. There were fantastic footballers on that kerry team. Star was a great partner for Gooch winning the ball he couldn't and feeding him. I agree that Gooch is a better forward but not the argument that a team was built around him, he had Galvin directing things, remember when he was the best player in the country and people use to say that when he played well Kerry played well.
Darragh O'Se , Mark and Thomas O'Shea, Galvin, Star all providing the muscle and winning the dirty ball.
Declan and Darren and Bryan Sheehan to help with the scoring. It was a great team with fantastic players to say that Gooch made that team is BS IMO. I don't expect anyone to agree with me here but some of the best defenders and possibly the best ball winning no 14 of all time were there to support Gooch.

This argument if you like it or not is the same as that old "luxury player" debate that was going around years ago.

^^^THIS^^^

I would have taken him all day everyday over Cooper.

Same way I would take Paul Flynn over Berno. But anyway...

---

Anyway, even being in the long grass [this thread] is odd in the 3 days before a game.

What's the feeling from our esteemed rivals about how Sunday is gonna pan out? I'm hearing a lot about dour, niggly etc elsewhere about the place.

I think it'll be similar to the AISF last year. These games are a different beast in Croker.

keane2097

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Anyway, even being in the long grass [this thread] is odd in the 3 days before a game.

What's the feeling from our esteemed rivals about how Sunday is gonna pan out? I'm hearing a lot about dour, niggly etc elsewhere about the place.

I think it'll be similar to the AISF last year. These games are a different beast in Croker.

Same as it has been when the two teams have met for the last couple of years - expect Dublin to win because they are a bit better than Kerry and have a much more well oiled system of play.

Kerry can win if something strange happens or if Dublin are a little bit off it, but it's like a 20-30% chance.

I'm not sure what sort of result would drive me mad if any. Would be great to see Kerry win but would be completely irrelevant if not repeated in Championship, would be reasonably happy with showing we can compete via a narrow loss, would secretly wonder if Dublin can avoid getting complacent forever (with an eye to later in the year) if they win heavily.

Kerrydude1981

keane2097 wrote: »

Same as it has been when the two teams have met for the last couple of years - expect Dublin to win because they are a bit better than Kerry and have a much more well oiled system of play.

Kerry can win if something strange happens or if Dublin are a little bit off it, but it's like a 20-30% chance.

I'm not sure what sort of result would drive me mad if any. Would be great to see Kerry win but would be completely irrelevant if not repeated in Championship, would be reasonably happy with showing we can compete via a narrow loss, would secretly wonder if Dublin can avoid getting complacent forever (with an eye to later in the year) if they win heavily.

Same here,Dublin are a more settled team and have a system in place that has been there, done that and has too many t-shirts

We have been chopping and changing the team during the league due to injuries and trying lads out,but as with any game with Dublin its when they run the bench they kick on,so its going to be interesting to see how we manage this on Sunday

Same As

The Kerry Senior Football Team to play Dublin in the Allianz Football League Final in Croke Park on Sunday next at 4pm shows one change in personnel from the side that defeated Tyrone in the final round of the League on Sunday last.

Jonathan Lyne come into the half forward line with Kevin McCarthy moving to the corner - Barry John Keane is the player to lose out. The Subs bench is notable for the return of Kieran Donaghy to the match day squad for the first time this year.

The team captained by Fionn Fitzgerald is as follows:

Ciarrai

1. Brendan Kealy Kilcummin
2. Fionn Fitzgerald (C) Dr Crokes
3. Mark Griffin St Michaels-Foilmore
4. Ronan Shanahan Austin Stacks
5. Peter Crowley Laune Rangers
6. Tadhg Morley Templenoe
7. Paul Murphy Rathmore
8. David Moran Kerins O'Rahillys
9. Anthony Maher Duagh
10. Jonathan Lyne Killarney Legion
11. Michael Geaney Dingle
12. Donnchadh Walsh Cromane
13. Kevin McCarthy Kilcummin
14. Paul Geaney Dingle
15. Stephen O'Brien Kenmare


Fir Ionaid:

16. Brian Kelly Killarney Legion
17. Jack Barry Na Gaeil
18. Barry John Keane Kerins O'Rahillys
19. Jack Savage Kerins O'Rahillys
20. Bryan Sheehan St Marys
21. Darran O'Sullivan Glenbeigh Glencar
22. Adrian Spillane Templenoe
23. Gavin Crowley Templenoe
24. Denis Daly St Marys
25. Cathal O Laoing An Ghaeltacht
26. Kieran Donaghy Austin Stacks
27. Conor Keane Killarney Legion

DDC1990

Same As wrote:

1. Brendan Kealy Kilcummin 2. Fionn Fitzgerald (C) Dr Crokes 3. Mark Griffin St Michaels-Foilmore 4. Ronan Shanahan Austin Stacks 5. Peter Crowley Laune Rangers 6. Tadhg Morley Templenoe 7. Paul Murphy Rathmore 8. David Moran Kerins O'Rahillys 9. Anthony Maher Duagh 10. Jonathan Lyne Killarney Legion 11. Michael Geaney Dingle 12. Donnchadh Walsh Cromane 13. Kevin McCarthy Kilcummin 14. Paul Geaney Dingle 15. Stephen O'Brien Kenmare

Happy enough with this considering our injuries.

4 hard working forwards is the way to go against the Dubs.

Loving our number 26. Mind games central.

It should be a tight enough game. Hoepfully finishing with Savage, Barry, Spillane and Darren will keep us strong through 70/75 mins.

Pity the Dubs will be calling on Brogan, Connolly, McManamon, O'Sullivan and McAuley!

ciarriaithuaidh

DDC1990 wrote: »

Happy enough with this considering our injuries.

4 hard working forwards is the way to go against the Dubs.

Loving our number 26. Mind games central.

It should be a tight enough game. Hoepfully finishing with Savage, Barry, Spillane and Darren will keep us strong through 70/75 mins.

Pity the Dubs will be calling on Brogan, Connolly, McManamon, O'Sullivan and McAuley!

I only seem to post negative stuff these days on here, must be old age creeping up!

I have to be honest though, after the pleasure of watching the u21s, looking at that Kerry team it must be one of most vulnerable named at this stage of the year for a long, long time. The half forward line alone is depressing reading. I don't care what they did a week ago against a disinterested Tyrone team in Killarney, if we think a Lyne-Geaney-Walsh line is good enough, we're deluding ourselves.
There's a lot else I wouldn't be happy with but in truth I don't really care too much about the result here, maybe Fitzmaurice doesn't either, even though it would be great to win obviously.
I don't think we have a hope of beating Dublin currently unless we're at full strength and that means without JOD, Enright, Young, Darran and (IMO) at least a couple of the u21s, we won't win here. I think Fitzmaurice is holding Barry back here for that reason, maybe saving him for a good 20 minute burst off bench?

BJK continues to be the harshest judged of Kerry forwards. Nobody can tell me he hasn't shown more than O'Brien as an inside forward in recent years and yet Fitz never seems to have any confidence in him.

Anyway, we will (I hope) have a very different squad come the Autumn, but for now a respectable performance here would be enough.

The_Honeybadger

Happy enough with that team although it's very harsh on BJK who I would have in front of O'Brien personally.

Lyne has been brought in to stick to Kilkenny like glue for the evening. He is a decent man marker and has the engine to stay with him. I expect that the plan is to shut Kilkenny down as far as possible and disrupt cluxton on his kickouts. This is the easy part and I think we can do this to great effect. Our big issue will be our own kickouts and the fact that we'll more than likely hand Dean Rock at least 8 points on a plate from frees as well.

The forwards is also a worry. If geaney has an off day I don't see where scores are going to come from play and we don't have a reliable free taker at the moment. Has anybody heard what's the story with JOD? I heard he only got a knock so why has he been missing for so long?

DDC1990

On why JOD isn't playing I'd imagine Fitzmaurice isn't taking any risks for the League.

We played Dublin in the Final in 2015 and had 8 lads who played in that final go for surgery after due to knocks they had been carrying for the year. Guys picked up knocks here and there in matches like this one and then when it came to the final they weren't 100%.

As for BJK, it's not that he's been dropped per say, it's just that for every team we play we have a different game plan. BJK had a very good game against Tyrone, but we can't carry any forwards who cannot track their man back and make some tackles. SOB has the pace to track his man up and down the field all day. It's a "flaw" (and I use this term very loosly) in BJK's game that isn't exposed against 30 teams around the country, but Dublin would exploit it. It's crazy that a Corner Forward would be judged on his tracking back abulity over his scoring ability, but that's where we are with this Dublin team IMO. We can just about carry Geaney against them.

Lyne has impressed me this year in the number 10 role. He will run all day for you and can kick a few scores. His problem is he is an easy target in the air. Mikey Geaney had an excellent game the last day, but needs to put back to back peformances together-something I've never seen from him in a Kerry jersey. Donnacha had been one of our weakest performers this year with mountains of fouls, but turned in a stunning performance last week.

If we are sharp I can see our half forwards chipping in with scores to complament Geaney. I think SOB's speed in Croke Park might open up a goal chance or two. We need to take every opportunity we get.

keane2097

Really you look at that team and it's hard to avoid the feeling that the intention is to not get tattooed.