Kerry GAA Discussion Thread Mod Warning Post #4167

Powerhouse

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

But it comes down to this, in 30 years time,people will be still talking about the likes of the great players of the 60s/70s and the likes of the great players I grew up watching and some I am still still watching,Martin O Connell,Colm O Rourke,Maurice Fitz,Stephen O Brien,Peter Cannavan,Trevor Giles,Seamus Moynihan Padraig Joyce,Diarmuid Connolly,The Brogans,the O Se's, Colm Cooper the list is endless,

Brolly will be remembered for blowing kisses

It doesn't really come down to that. Brolly never made any claims as to his own ability as a player.

Powerhouse

Stoner wrote: »

He'll be remembered for this work on RTE and giving away a kidney (I think) over football now alright.

His performance last night has dominated the Kerry thread when you should be analysing a win. He could have waited until another day.

I really really don't get this. Presumably he was responding to a question raised in the week of Cooper's retirement when it was still topical. What was he supposed to say? "Sorry, I don't want to affect the discussion on boards.ie after the League final so I'll get back to you in six months time with an answer"????

Stoner

Powerhouse wrote:

It doesn't really come down to that. Brolly never made any claims as to his own ability as a player.

It does though, it was his timing.

Powerhouse

Stoner wrote: »

He'll be remembered for this work on RTE and giving away a kidney (I think) over football now alright.

In fairness that is the way of all flesh really. Few under 40 would remember Pat Spillane or Colm O'Rourke as other than television personalities. It doesn't necessarily reflect badly on Brolly even though it is clearly meant to.

Powerhouse

Stoner wrote: »

It does though, it was his timing.

Sorry I don't understand this. I said Brolly did not make claims about his own ability as a player (at least to my knowledge). What has his timing got to do with it?

Powerhouse

TheCitizen wrote: »

Much prefer Brolly as a pundit to Tomas O Se. Even though I wouldn't always agree with Brolly, he is interesting and at times is on the button and will say things others won't. Whereas OSe is a bit of a sycophant. Brolly is right about Cooper, a very talented player but not as good as some have made him out to be since he announced his retirement from inter county football.

Couldn't agree more. Tomas O Se does the "I'm really sound" act very well, but Brolly is streets ahead in his broader appreciation of the game and his ability to hold and express interesting opinions. With O Se you could leave the television for ten minutes if he was talking safe in the knowledge that he will not have said anything you wouldn't have wanted to miss.

Kerrydude1981

Cooper got 5 points in 05 and 6 points in 08 finals

Now if any forward kicks that on an All Ireland day and his team loses he would be the last fella you would blame or in Brollys case point the finger at for losing

jimmytwotimes 2013

Powerhouse wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. Tomas O Se does the "I'm really sound" act very well, but Brolly is streets ahead in his broader appreciation of the game and his ability to hold and express interesting opinions. With O Se you could leave the television for ten minutes if he was talking safe in the knowledge that he will not have said anything you wouldn't have wanted to miss.

Do ye want to start an RTE pundit thread there lads? Clogging the Kerry thread up with nonsense.

On yesterday's match. Obviously it's early in the year, both teams aren't fully fit and both teams missing players who will start come summer. Kerry have found a few good options in Barry and Morley especially as their running gives the Dubs something to think about and aren't as static as Maher and Aidan Mah were over the last couple of years.

Thought Kerry were wasteful at times and the ball in to Geaney was easily cleared up in the first half.

Philly McMahon is still being tracked by his opposite number which is a major problem, Savage had to track back far too much. If James O'D is starting he can't be doing that kind of work and be a scoring threat at the same time.

In midfield the Dubs broke away nearly all kickouts in the first half as our midfielders were waiting under the ball. We need to be moving into space on kickouts if possible.

Kealy? I don't know lads, he has to go. He had his usual collapse near the end of the game on kickouts.

Geaney and Moran really stood up. I think we're still short of what is required to win Sam but we're moving in the right direction.

Powerhouse

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Cooper got 5 points in 05 and 6 points in 08 finals

Now if any forward kicks that on an All Ireland day and his team loses he would be the last fella you would blame or in Brollys case point the finger at for losing

Did Tomas O Se not point this out? After all according to people here he won the argument.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Powerhouse wrote: »

Did Tomas O Se not point this out? After all according to people here he won the argument.

Seriously, stop and start a thread elsewhere. Or go for a walk.

D'Agger

Massive win yesterday, had a feeling we'd throw ourselves into beating Dublin in order to end their run, get a bit of silverware for ourselves & gain a bit of confidence for any future meetings. That said, we could easily have lost it but for some wayward shooting from the Dubs. It'll be played down hugely by Fitzmaurice but that's a huge shot in the arm for this team for the year.

I thought Moran was immense, think Geaney at centre forward means he doesn't have to labour after a wing back the whole time and suits him much better. Paul Geaney kicked some great scores inside & to a man, we were very, very solid - Morley & Shanahan in the backs were steady throughout, as was Fionn.

We dominated the middle for periods, our own kickouts were very good in particular, Crowley, Murphy etc. winning good breaking ball. Only issue with Murphy is that, for every good thing he does, he has a misplaced pass in him, gave away possession cheaply a few times yesterday. Griffin seems a complete liability at times - coughed up a score from his needless punching of a ball when he was up, unopposed had me scratching my head and another moment in the backline, he seemed to exude panic which doesn't help those around you either.

I felt when Dublin brought on McMeniman and MDM, we'd bring on Darran and look to track them. I thought, overall, we dealt well with Dublin changing to a more direct running game despite being cynical at times (Maher obvs)

Again, big win, looking forward to Munster now!

Powerhouse

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Seriously, stop and start a thread elsewhere. Or go for a walk.

What gives you the right to decide who can and cannot contribute here?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Powerhouse wrote: »

What gives you the right to decide who can and cannot contribute here?

Keep going so.

Powerhouse

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Keep going so.

To be honest I don't need your go-ahead either way. Why not just reply to what you want to reply to and ignore what you don't - same as everyone else?

jimmytwotimes 2013

Powerhouse wrote: »

To be honest I don't need your go-ahead either way. Why not just reply to what you want to reply to and ignore what you don't - same as everyone else?

I've reported u for derailing this thread and the match thread. I'll leave it to the mods, a chat about the game might break out yet.

mystic86

Powerhouse, DDC1990 answered your drivel in post 9140! Now, can you do the decent thing and let us be happy in this thread?

To everyone else, just trying to get my head around the exact age profile of the team, what age are the following players:

Griffin
Shanahan
Barry
Savage
McCarthy
G Crowley
Spillane

Thanks.

Boom__Boom

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Do ye want to start an RTE pundit thread there lads? Clogging the Kerry thread up with nonsense.

On yesterday's match. Obviously it's early in the year, both teams aren't fully fit and both teams missing players who will start come summer. Kerry have found a few good options in Barry and Morley especially as their running gives the Dubs something to think about and aren't as static as Maher and Aidan Mah were over the last couple of years.

Thought Kerry were wasteful at times and the ball in to Geaney was easily cleared up in the first half.

Philly McMahon is still being tracked by his opposite number which is a major problem, Savage had to track back far too much. If James O'D is starting he can't be doing that kind of work and be a scoring threat at the same time.

In midfield the Dubs broke away nearly all kickouts in the first half as our midfielders were waiting under the ball. We need to be moving into space on kickouts if possible.

Kealy? I don't know lads, he has to go. He had his usual collapse near the end of the game on kickouts.

Geaney and Moran really stood up. I think we're still short of what is required to win Sam but we're moving in the right direction.

Yeah it was good to get the win and all but Dublin looked very much a team who have been on the go for a while, whereas Kerry had a fair few players who are either desperate to establish themselves or desperate to hang on to their jerseys for a bit longer. Everyone in the Kerry squad knows the U21 lads are coming down the track and are hungry as feck to establish themselves. A loss yesterday and there would have been a ferocious clamour to undertake a wholesale restructuring of the lads who started, come the championship. Even with the win, there are still a lot of the question marks as a fair few lads who played well for long stretches, also made poor mistakes at other stages.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Kerry match day squad looked a fair bit different if Kerry end up playing Dublin in the summer.

Kerrydude1981

mystic86 wrote: »

Powerhouse, DDC1990 answered your drivel in post 9140! Now, can you do the decent thing and let us be happy in this thread?

To everyone else, just trying to get my head around the exact age profile of the team, what age are the following players:

Griffin
Shanahan
Barry
Savage
McCarthy
G Crowley
Spillane

Thanks.

Just a guess

Id say Griffin would be mid 20s,

The rest then would be early 20's,22 or 23

Boom__Boom

mystic86 wrote: »

Powerhouse, DDC1990 answered your drivel in post 9140! Now, can you do the decent thing and let us be happy in this thread?

To everyone else, just trying to get my head around the exact age profile of the team, what age are the following players:

Griffin
Shanahan
Barry
Savage
McCarthy
G Crowley
Spillane

Thanks.

Griffin - turned 26 last week
Shanahan 26
Barry 24
Savage 23
McCarthy 23
G Crowley 23
Spillane 23

Not 100% sure on all of these but would be around the 90% sure, based on when they were playing U21 and minor.

Poor_old_gill

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Griffin - turned 26 last week
Shanahan 26
Barry 24
Savage 23
McCarthy 23
G Crowley 23
Spillane 23

Not 100% sure on all of these but would be around the 90% sure, based on when they were playing U21 and minor.

Savage & Barry are both 22 this year anyway

Powerhouse

DDC1990 wrote: »

Gooch played Tyrone 4 times in championship football.

In 2003 (at 18) he kicked 1 point.
In 2005 he kicked 5 points (joint top scorer)
In 2008 he kicked 6 points (top scorer)
In 2012 he kicked 5 points (top scorer)

It's up to you if you'd rather blindly listen to Brolly and take what he says as gospel or you'd rather do a bit of research yourself and see that Brolly is taking absolute bollox.

Brolly is going to great lengths to lie about Cooper and his legacy for some bizzare reason. He claimed Tyrone never double marked Cooper last night. Absolutely laughable.

His point generally seems to be, Kerry lost 3 games against Tyrone. Cooper is Kerrys most important player. Ergo Cooper isn't a leader because Kerry didn't win. If Declan O'Sullivan slots that late goal in 2008 is Cooper now suddenly the greatest footballer of his generation, because Kerry would have won and Cooper would have been top scorer?

Whats funnier is the fact that he dismisses all the teams that Kerry ever beat as terrible teams, when it was the brilliance of Cooper, Moynihan, Ó Sé (X3) and O'Sullivan who made those teams look ordinary. But when Kerry lose it's because Gooch isn't a leader.

Listen to regard in which he is held by every last one of his teammates, from club to county to country. That tells you more about his leadership than Joe Brolly will ever know.

With reference to the piece in bold, you are assuming that I agree with Brolly. All I have said is that he raises legitimate points and is entitled to do so and have them answered intelligently, which Tomas O Se singularly failed to do.

To deal with your points: scoring feats which include frees don't tell all the story. The free-taker is nearly always the top scorer so that's irrelevant too.

Be wary of accusing Brolly of lying and then stating yourself that Cooper was 18 against Tyrone in 2003. He was two years older with an All-Ireland final appearance and an All-Star award already behind him.

I think Brolly's point is that Cooper would have been incapable of carrying a team in the way that say Peter Canavan carried Tyrone in 1995. Whether that makes him a lesser footballer is another matter.

And in fairness to the "terrible teams" Kerry beat...............maybe he has a point. Very few teams have won All-Irelands in recent times. Tyrone, Dublin and Donegal have, along with Kerry obviously, been the best teams of the last ten years. It simply cannot be ignored that Tyrone beat Kerry in three key matches when both teams were at their peak in the noughties, nor that Dublin repeatedly beat Kerry in the championship post-2011. And it is not unreasonable to judge a player's contribution with greater scrutiny on those games.* It is no less than the same standard of judgement that Kerry people would hold a player from another county if the boot was on the other foot.

Brolly does not deserve to be name-called or accused of lying for simply raising the point.

* I think Cooper's performances actually hold up quite well to scrutiny (not that my personal opinion on him matters) but I don't understand why a bit of discussion by Brolly rattles people so much. It's just an opinion. He is no doubt influenced by the fact that he's from the North and sees those teams like Donegal and Tyrone up close in the same way that people in Kerry are influenced by the fact that Cooper is their player.

Powerhouse

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

I've reported u for derailing this thread and the match thread. I'll leave it to the mods, a chat about the game might break out yet.[/QUOTE

Ah let's be honest here, you had no problem with people "derailing" this thread when they were saying what you wanted to read about the Cooper discussion on League Sunday. I took the contrarian angle that Brolly was entitled to a hearing which didn't suit you. That's why you were telling me to leave. That's why you report to the mods. Let's not dress it up as a major desire to chat about the match. It's a "Kerry GAA discussion thread" - talk about Colm Cooper and discussion around his retirement surely qualifies as that. How could that possibly be "derailing" a "Kerry GAA discussion thread". Maybe you need to rename it? Alternatively you could ignore my posts and get on with your own opinions if you were so inclined.

MayoAreMagic

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think Brolly's point is that Cooper would have been incapable of carrying a team in the way that say Peter Canavan carried Tyrone in 1995. Whether that makes him a lesser footballer is another matter.

That kind of logic doesn't stand up though. It seems to centre on one game where he played very well and scored a lot, but Tyrone in 95 were basically a one man team, Kerry in the 00s weren't like that, they had scorers all over the place. Like Conor Mortimer was the crux of mayo's attack and thus scored a lot, he was far from leading them anywhere though, it was mainly because mayo weren't a great side. Secondly canavan wasn't facing the type of defensive football and ethos towards spoiling tactics the gooch has faced for a decade and a half, so the comparison isn't really a good one, or a fair one, in many respects.


Another issue is that Canavan played longer into the past, and so people remember his good games and tend to have forgotten his bad ones (just like every other great of the past). In reality the gooch's 11 point in 2 final haul is being dismissed because Kerry didn't win - which is ridiculous. Any man who kicks 6 points in a AIF will come away with the match ball 9 times out of 10. What makes it even more suspect is that tyrone didn't actually win in 95 either - and that Dublin team were no great shakes btw, but for some reason that isn't canavan's fault whereas the loss to tyrone is the fault of the gooch..


When you examine the argument, brolly has basically compared every perceived negative in the gooch's career (and any man who plays in about 10 all Ireland finals is always going to have some negatives) to one virtuoso display canavan put in in 1995. Which begs the obvious question, what about every other year of his career? For example, how about 2002 when they won the league then went out to Sligo in the qualifiers? Leadership eh? But no pundit wants to really go down the route of questioning canavan's career as a response, because frankly they know it is bs logic and don't want to sink to brolly's level.


When you think about it, couldnt the exact same argument be made for say Michael Meehan's display against Kerry in the rain a few years ago? Again a team where all roads led to one man. Or indeed, any virtuoso display someone put on down the years? The whole thing is littered with flaws. You may say it gets people talking, and it does, but it also shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Forge83

Great to be at match yesterday to see Kerry beat Dublin and lift the cup.
Very disappointed with the number of Kerry supporters however for a league final.
I hope Fitzmaurice doesn't decide that this is his team for the championship just because they won yesterday.Our biggest plus this year will be the competition for places. This is what has driven Dublin over the past few years and now we are in a position to have this squad competition for another ten years with the minor and u21 teams coming through. Fitzmaurice must be ruthless and drop players who have bad games regardless of who they are. On yesterday's game,a few words on each player.

1.Kealy- Solid for 65mins. Couldn't be faulted for goal. When Dublin applied the pressure at the end the pressure got to him again.

Alternatives- I don't think there Is much between Kealy and Kelly but I don't understand why Shane Murphy is not being considered.

2.Fionn Fitz- Kept Brogan in his pocket for the whole game.

3.Griffin- Solid throughout bar a stupid ball punch that gave up a point. Love it when he drives forward.

4.Shanahan- Tenacious is the best way to describe his performance. Can he hold his place over All Star Shane Enright though?

Alternatives -As above Shane Enright. Also Jason Foley- Can he force his way into the back three? If not he is the ideal marker for McMeniman if we meet Dublin again. He is the quickest player on the Kerry panel and McMeniman always causes trouble as he did yesterday with his pace.

5.Peter Crowley- Mixed the good with the bad yesterday. Could have kicked a handy point unchallenged but took it into contact. Some clumsy tackling too and could have done better with the goal.However picked up a lot of breaking ball and defended well.

6.Tadgh Morley- Kerry's best defender.Enough said.

7.Paul Murphy- I'm not a fan. Don't know if he is a back or a forward. Serious engine but lacks physicality to break tackles and stop opposition breaking his tackle in defence.A few stray passes too in every game.

Alternative- A lot of choice in the half backs with Young, Tom O Sullivan and even Jonathan Lyne.

8.Moran- Best player on the pitch! Maybe takes the ball into too many tackles but I am nit picking.

9.Barry- Compliments Moran perfectly. We collapsed when he left the pitch. He is like a juggernaut when he gets moving. However he did get caught ball watching for a couple of passes. Hopefully he will be able to get up to the speed of championship football. I have no doubt he will.

Alternative- There is none. Maher and Buckley will be back up with the usual Donaghy and Sheehan also available if required.Would it be mad to consider Andrew Barry?

10.Lyne- Took the black card for the team. Cynical but required. Offers very little in attack though. If Murphy doesn't get a spot on the half back line he may be a better option than Lyne here.

11.Mikey Geaney- kicked a few lovely points. Huge work rate. Showed for the ball every time he could.Needs to play consitantly well to keep his spot.

12.Donnacha Walsh- Obviously given a job to do with McCarthy and did it wel also chucking over 2 points.Was lucky not to have picked up two deserved yellows however. On another day could have cost Kerry the match if down to 14. But likewise Dublin could have been down to 14 with McCarthys punch retaliation. It's a very thin line.

Alternatives- Crowley who came on for Lyne. Again was a defender playing wing forward by the looks of it. Will list all forwards at the end.

13.McCarthy- Ok first half but really came to life in the second half. Another guy with a huge work rate but needs to show more in the scoring stakes.

14.Paul Geaney- Kerrys best forward. Everything revolved around him especially in the second half when he wandered out to the half forward line. Poor free Miss in front of the posts. Allowing players who have taken a heavy blow to take a free doesn't make sense to me.

15.Jack Savage- There is something special about this guy. He has serious vision and can take a score. Was forced into a lot of tracking back yesterday which looks a weakness.

Alternatives- So many to choose from who could play in most of the 6 forward positions. Darren O Sullivan, James O Donoghue, Kieran Donaghy, Stephen O Brien, Barry John Keane, Bryan Sheehan,Adrian Spillane.Thats without even considering a couple of the u21s- O Shea,Spillane,Flaherty,Geaney.

Just my take on it. Hope I didn't forget anyone.

seligehgit

DDC1990 wrote: »

Gooch played Tyrone 4 times in championship football.

In 2003 (at 20) he kicked 1 point.
In 2005 he kicked 5 points (joint top scorer)
In 2008 he kicked 6 points (top scorer)
In 2012 he kicked 5 points (top scorer)

It's up to you if you'd rather blindly listen to Brolly and take what he says as gospel or you'd rather do a bit of research yourself and see that Brolly is taking absolute bollox.

Brolly is going to great lengths to lie about Cooper and his legacy for some bizzare reason. He claimed Tyrone never double marked Cooper last night. Absolutely laughable.

His point generally seems to be, Kerry lost 3 games against Tyrone. Cooper is Kerrys most important player. Ergo Cooper isn't a leader because Kerry didn't win. If Declan O'Sullivan slots that late goal in 2008 is Cooper now suddenly the greatest footballer of his generation, because Kerry would have won and Cooper would have been top scorer?

Whats funnier is the fact that he dismisses all the teams that Kerry ever beat as terrible teams, when it was the brilliance of Cooper, Moynihan, Ó Sé (X3) and O'Sullivan who made those teams look ordinary. But when Kerry lose it's because Gooch isn't a leader.

Listen to the regard in which he is held by every last one of his teammates, from club to county to country. That tells you more about his leadership than Joe Brolly will ever know.

Great post.

Powerhouse

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That kind of logic doesn't stand up though. It seems to centre on one game where he played very well and scored a lot, but Tyrone in 95 were basically a one man team, Kerry in the 00s weren't like that, they had scorers all over the place. Like Conor Mortimer was the crux of mayo's attack and thus scored a lot, he was far from leading them anywhere though, it was mainly because mayo weren't a great side. Secondly canavan wasn't facing the type of defensive football and ethos towards spoiling tactics the gooch has faced for a decade and a half, so the comparison isn't really a good one, or a fair one, in many respects.


Another issue is that Canavan played longer into the past, and so people remember his good games and tend to have forgotten his bad ones (just like every other great of the past). In reality the gooch's 11 point in 2 final haul is being dismissed because Kerry didn't win - which is ridiculous. Any man who kicks 6 points in a AIF will come away with the match ball 9 times out of 10. What makes it even more suspect is that tyrone didn't actually win in 95 either - and that Dublin team were no great shakes btw, but for some reason that isn't canavan's fault whereas the loss to tyrone is the fault of the gooch..

.

In fairness I'm not sure he was implying that losses to Tyrone were Gooch's fault. Just that he did not stand out in those games and for the amount of coverage his exit got it might be expected that he would have been more effective on days that Kerry were on the backfoot. That would be the Brolly argument. An obvious corollary to your point about losses to Tyrone being "Gooch's fault" - what about the disproportionate praise he or any other high-scoring forward gets when the team wins well? It works both ways. If the losses are (and Tomas O Se clung to this argument) are the responsibility of the collective then what about the wins?

Your point about Canavan being the standout forward in '95 whereas Gooch was just one of a number of good forwards is a good one. Of course, the exact opposite argument can be made, that his life was easier in a better team and that Canavan had to do more to be effective as the main forward, but it's at least a good attempt at an argument.

In contrast, Tomas O Se countered Brolly's claim that he never saw Gooch turn a game around for Kerry in adversity by saying he saw him do it about 200 times, yet when asked for an example he could not given even one. Not even one, from a claimed selection of 200. That's the sign of a man who knows what the conclusion of his argument is - backing the Kerry man no matter what - but cannot construct the actual argument to save his life.

In my view Brolly's views are challengeable not so much in the facts (Gooch for example did not threaten the goalposts in the last 30 minutes of the 2005 final) but in the context. When an entire team is struggling forwards struggle too. What were Gooch's scoring returns from play on those days? (Does Tomas O Se even know this despite being on television defending his honour?) Why not hold Peter Canavan's career up to the light similarly? Unfortunately that requires a level of rigorous thinking and rhetorical skill which Tomas O Se and Ciaran Whelan simply do not possess. Brolly easily moves between comparisons of teams and players, and playing styles. The others, by comparison, look like students who have crammed the night before and can talk ad infinitum on a very specific subject but not beyond that. They were lucky they had Lyster to help shout him down.

acequion

Powerhouse wrote: »

Maybe cogent enough for you but that's because you cannot countenance under any circumstances any opinion which does not completely and utterly praise Gooch.

Look critically at what was said - Brolly questioned Gooch against Tyrone (a team with a 3-0 record against Kerry in the championship over six seasons right when Kerry were at their peak) but O Se replied without mentioning Tyrone at all. He completely ignored the question.

It is mind-boggling that some people here think O Se had the better of the argument. It would have served O Se better to watch the games against Tyrone again and have some kind of plausible reply for something Brolly was always going to bring up, rather than relying on apparently clever irrelevancies and smirks that will impress those who have already made up their minds but holds no water ultimately. He could have even questioned the word "influence" and questioned what precisely what Brolly meant by that and asked how that is measured. He might have pointed to Gooch's excellent creation of a goal against Tyrone in 2005. But maybe it's the prerogative of a multiple All Ireland winner to go into a discussion such as this underprepared operating off the top of your head and not able to discuss specifics.

But it's probably a reality, as someone suggested, that Brolly's background counts for something in this case. He is used to the idea of evidence rather than high-stool smirks as a means of constructing an argument. O Se simply doesn't get that.

How on earth would you know what I can or "cannot countenance under any circumstances"? Do you know me personally? Because only somebody who knows a person personally can make a claim like that.

That, in addition to your hyperbolic "It is mind boggling," is ample evidence that it is you who are the type of person who cannot countenance another opinion. And you seem to like evidence.

I also told you that Brolly went on one of his rants and din't allow the others to get a word in edgeways. Despite that,O Shea rebutted with what I quoted earlier as well as to reasonably point out that Tyrone beat the entire Kerry team,not just Gooch.

Brolly goes for controversy and probably knew he was OTT. Everyone realises that apart from yourself,it seems.

So believe what you like.

Powerhouse

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

That kind of logic doesn't stand up though. It seems to centre on one game where he played very well and scored a lot, but Tyrone in 95 were basically a one man team, Kerry in the 00s weren't like that, they had scorers all over the place. Like Conor Mortimer was the crux of mayo's attack and thus scored a lot, he was far from leading them anywhere though, it was mainly because mayo weren't a great side. Secondly canavan wasn't facing the type of defensive football and ethos towards spoiling tactics the gooch has faced for a decade and a half, so the comparison isn't really a good one, or a fair one, in many respects.


Another issue is that Canavan played longer into the past, and so people remember his good games and tend to have forgotten his bad ones (just like every other great of the past). In reality the gooch's 11 point in 2 final haul is being dismissed because Kerry didn't win - which is ridiculous. Any man who kicks 6 points in a AIF will come away with the match ball 9 times out of 10. What makes it even more suspect is that tyrone didn't actually win in 95 either - and that Dublin team were no great shakes btw, but for some reason that isn't canavan's fault whereas the loss to tyrone is the fault of the gooch..


When you examine the argument, brolly has basically compared every perceived negative in the gooch's career (and any man who plays in about 10 all Ireland finals is always going to have some negatives) to one virtuoso display canavan put in in 1995. Which begs the obvious question, what about every other year of his career? For example, how about 2002 when they won the league then went out to Sligo in the qualifiers? Leadership eh? But no pundit wants to really go down the route of questioning canavan's career as a response, because frankly they know it is bs logic and don't want to sink to brolly's level.


When you think about it, couldnt the exact same argument be made for say Michael Meehan's display against Kerry in the rain a few years ago? Again a team where all roads led to one man. Or indeed, any virtuoso display someone put on down the years? The whole thing is littered with flaws. You may say it gets people talking, and it does, but it also shows you don't know what you are talking about.

Sorry, just noticed this bit now. I think you are conflating my own views (which I have scarcely mentioned) with Joe Brolly's. I'm simply putting forward the case he did and pointing out the dearth of rational logical responses as distinct from name-calling and more subtle comments such as your own "don't want to sink to Brolly's level" - as if he has committed some heinous crime.

It is no harm to say Brolly's argument is littered with flaws, but why cannot someone in a position to do so point out those flaws? Tomas O Se is probably pulling good money from the Sunday Game, doing a column is a newspaper on the back of that and yet could not name one game * where Gooch pulled it out of the fire for Kerry though he claimed there was 200?

* Could he not have pointed out, for example, the goal he created for Declan O'Sullivan in the 2007 semi-final when Kerry won by just two points? That's the kind of thing I would have been citing - where he scored only a point from play yet influenced the game hugely (in my view), but then again you say I don't know what I am talking about.

Powerhouse

acequion wrote: »

How on earth would you know what I can or "cannot countenance under any circumstances"? Do you know me personally? Because only somebody who knows a person personally can make a claim like that.

That, in addition to your hyperbolic "It is mind boggling," is ample evidence that it is you who are the type of person who cannot countenance another opinion. And you seem to like evidence.

I also told you that Brolly went on one of his rants and din't allow the others to get a word in edgeways. Despite that,O Shea rebutted with what I quoted earlier as well as to reasonably point out that Tyrone beat the entire Kerry team,not just Gooch.

Brolly goes for controversy and probably knew he was OTT. Everyone realises that apart from yourself,it seems.

So believe what you like.

It's a discussion board. Don't get too hung up on turns of phrase.

Bonniedog

Just about recovered now!

Congratulations. Was good game. Had everyone on edge of seats/toes to the very last.

Disappointed obviously but good Kerry performance. Difference was being able to go up the field on counter attacks and score.

Met some old chums from Kerry afterwards and slagging was good!

As for Brolly, well I doubt Cooper needs his affirmation, nor my winding up!

To the Summer boys and girls!