Investigating to start my own "picobrewery"

Wallacebiy

Hi All ,

When I were a lad , de brother and I were into kit brewing ( in plastic buckets and such ) we had good successes. But that was a long time ago .

With the imminent closing of my favourite commercial brewery ( Beamish ) I've decided to build my own mini brewing plant at home ( I now own a house , I think it'll be a good addition )

I'm thinking of doing an all grain brew , using 80 L Tanks ( need to source these , and heating elements)

Essentially I want to set up a little line , similar to a commercial operation . No intention of dealing with siphons and the like .


So any suggestions , helpful hints or the like will be appreciated.

This is a longer term project , so likely will take months to set up . But I hope I do get to put it in place

guildofevil

Well it's certainly doable and let me tell you that you are starting into a great hobby.

The first thing you should invest in is a copy of How to Brew, by John Palmer. This is a great all round brewing book and remains my main reference, even though I now have a small library of brewing texts.

When you say you don't want to deal with syphoning, I take it you mean that you want to keg, rather than bottle. This is a wise decision as bottling is a pain. I keg into Cornelius kegs, which hold 19 litres each and I have never even considered going back to bottling.



I'm sure you could source the tanks locally, but if not, a couple of UK suppliers can help you out. For example www.hopshopuk.com supplies stainless boilers, with 3kw elements in 50l, 75l and 100l.



http://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/ is probably the most popular supplier of brewing paraphernalia. They can supply pumps, hoses thermostats and tanks of various sizes.

I find that polypropylene is fine for use in mashing or boiling, but if you are going for this kind of serious setup I would avoid plastic on the fermentation side.

Hop and Grape do stainless tanks for fermentation:

The one pictured is 30l but you can get them in a variety of sizes, up to 100l.

Keep us posted on how you go. If you want my advice, feel free to PM or email me. If you get it up and running, I want to see pictures!

cavedave

There are a good few guys down in Cork city who homebrew. They meet up about once a month. They can give you advice and such.(Im guessign your in cork if you can get Beamish)

Stouts are good fun. I just finished the last of a all grain batch. I have never made a red though.

oblivious

Cornelius kegs are the best way to go for long tern storage and serving

Here are a few ready to go brewing systems

1 barrel system
http://www.pbcbreweryinstallations.com/breweries.html

20 gallon (US)

http://morebeer.com/search/103473

Here is an example of a 40l homebrew system (mine)

Here are few pic’s of the day

A 70 liter homemade mash tun, with copper manifold


A mash underway


60liter boiler, First runnings


Corny


An the finial product

Wallacebiy

Cheers lads !!


I'll probably bottle a couple out of each batch , I'm currently considerig a mix of keg sizes ( maybe some small 5l party kegs and a large barrell ) I need to figure out a little more on that end of it . when I say no siphoning I mean I want to make it a closed system from mash to Fermenter , I reckon if I have the height differrence I can do this by gravity , without needing pumps and with a long enough cooling coil(maybe in a water bath ?) between Hopping kettele and fermenter I'll be OK for that

I'm actually wanting to go all stainless steel, for permanence really . I reckon It'll be pricey, but worth while .


Can't see all ye're pics at the moment ( I'm in work I'll definitely look at home tonight though) Looks cool alright , tasty brew at the end ?

Thanks for the links . I'll check out those Cork lads to be sure . and the Hopshop boiler looks good at £265.

I'll keep ye posted



( If I can get the brother intersted in brewing again , I'll be sorted !! )

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

when I say no siphoning I mean I want to make it a closed system from mash to Fermenter , I reckon if I have the height differrence I can do this by gravity , without needing pumps and with a long enough cooling coil(maybe in a water bath ?) between Hopping kettele and fermenter I'll be OK for that

If you want to pump boiling liquid you will need a march pump, http://morebeer.com/view_product/17311//March_High_Temperature_Brewing_Pump

for the kettle and femention could would need to look at a counter flow chiller

http://www.hopandgrape.co.uk/catalog/detailV2_8.asp?itemid=COU20175838&catid=HA20225648

guildofevil

As oblivious pointed out, you could go for a ready made one. Save you a lot of trouble. Here is a 100l one from Mossbrew


It comes with plastic fermentors, but I'm sure you could pay extra to get stainless ones, or tell him to keep them and source your own fermentors.

When it comes to chilling your wort, at the scale you are talking about, you would be looking at getting a counterflow wort chiller or plate heat exchanger.

oblivious

guildofevil wrote: »

Here is a 100l one from Mossbrew

There has been some question raised as to the quality of there engineering, Here

ManFromAtlantis

wow all this looks interesting. ...stupid question..and pardon my ignorance........how much room do you need and is there a alot of steam/smells etc or other affect on normal living?

guildofevil

Funny; I heard the same thing about PBC.

BeerNut

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

how much room do you need

You can make beer in any amount of space really. You just need to size your kit appropriately. I'd imagine the Mossbrew kit takes up the amount of space shown.

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

and is there a alot of steam/smells etc or other affect on normal living?

For the boiling bit there is, and people tend to do it outside.

noby

guildofevil wrote: »

Funny; I heard the same thing about PBC.

PBC did have issues, it seems, but now outsource all their welding/fabricating side. I've no idea with Moss Brew - but it's safe to presume no-one would stay in business long if they were consistently turning out shoddy gear.

ManFromAtlantis

just looking at mossbrew. do ye know if they deliver to ireland and how much for 100l starter. thks.

oblivious

ManFromAtlantis wrote: »

just looking at mossbrew. do ye know if they deliver to ireland and how much for 100l starter. thks.

Here is some information for international and Europe

http://www.mossbrew.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/3%20International/

An their contact info

http://www.mossbrew.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/17%20Contacts/index.htm

guildofevil

My information is a year or two old, but Mossbrew were charging £2,500 for the pilot system. Don't know what shipping is or what it would cost to turn the plastic fermentors into stainless steel.

PBC do their 1BBL (163 litre) system for £3,400 and want an extra £500 for stainless fermentors. No idea of delivery here either.

Wallacebiy

The Morebeer Brewsculptures are a little along the lines of what I'm thinking of building, Although I can't for the life of me think why one would want to go through a separate boiler and do all that sparging .

Surely if you have enough liquid heated and a proper false bottom the liquor itself will extract through the mash .


I know in the commercial brewing set up I've seen they do pump the liquor through the mash once or twice , to get absolute max out of it , but then they're brewing super efficiently and brewing to a high finishing gravity ( 6.5 - 7.5 % ) before watering down to retail strength.

I'd imagine in my home set up , as long as the hot liquor passes through the mash once on it's way to the hopping kettle it should be grand . Or am I wrong ?

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

The Morebeer Brewsculptures are a little along the lines of what I'm thinking of building, Although I can't for the life of me think why one would want to go through a separate boiler and do all that sparging .

You need to heat you water, this can be done in the mash tun. But you need a second volume of water, similar to the first to wash (Sparge) the sugars that a left behind in the grain.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Surely if you have enough liquid heated and a proper false bottom the liquor itself will extract through the mash .

I know in the commercial brewing set up I've seen they do pump the liquor through the mash once or twice , to get absolute max out of it , but then they're brewing super efficiently and brewing to a high finishing gravity ( 6.5 - 7.5 % ) before watering down to retail strength.

Yes this is a gravity system and is very common, but there is the option of using a pump to set up a R.I.M.S (Recirculating Infusion Mash System)

To hit efficiency of around 70% extraction of sugar from the malt you will need to wash or sparge a second time.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

I'd imagine in my home set up , as long as the hot liquor passes through the mash once on it's way to the hopping kettle it should be grand . Or am I wrong ?

There is the option of doing a party guyle method to make a intial strong beer (8-10%) and the second runnings to produce a week beer (3.5-4.5%). its a little tricky and it would be best starting with a standard batch sparging

Here is a good link for batch sparging and there will be loads of You tubes out there http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew.

Two bits of advice 1) I would get the book How to Brew - By John Palmer to cover the fundamentals. 2) Having a load of of shiny equipment will not make you a better brewer, that you to you alone with time and practice

oblivious

I also complerlty for got about the sabco systems (brew magic)

Here is also a video from Sam Calagione about how he started up dogfish head brewery initially on a Sabco system


http://video.aol.com/video-detail/sabco-brew-magic-testimonial/1138897994

guildofevil

Wallacebiy, sparging is not just something commercial breweries do to get a few extra gravity points out of the mash, everyone who does all grain brewing sparges. A very large percentage of the sugars generated during the mash are do not come out with the first runnings from the mash tun, so you really do have to rinse out the grain with hot water.

I mash in an insulated plastic bucket, in my back yard and the first runnings from my mash tun only make up about a third of the pre boil volume, with the other two thirds coming from two batch sparges.

Have a look at www.howtobrew.com. It's the first edition of John Plamer's book made available for free.

You might also have a look at my article describing a simple all grain batch. It's there to give people an introduction to the basics and does not address water chemistry, efficiency or any of the more complex elements of all grain brewing.

Wallacebiy

guildofevil wrote: »

Wallacebiy, sparging is not just something commercial breweries do to get a few extra gravity points out of the mash, everyone who does all grain brewing sparges. A very large percentage of the sugars generated during the mash are do not come out with the first runnings from the mash tun, so you really do have to rinse out the grain with hot water.

I mash in an insulated plastic bucket, in my back yard and the first runnings from my mash tun only make up about a third of the pre boil volume, with the other two thirds coming from two batch sparges.

Have a look at www.howtobrew.com. It's the first edition of John Plamer's book made available for free.

You might also have a look at my article describing a simple all grain batch. It's there to give people an introduction to the basics and does not address water chemistry, efficiency or any of the more complex elements of all grain brewing.

You see , that's all well and good , I can understand how , if mashing in an insulated tun , with a copper pipe for keeping the grain in , you would need to "wash" out the Sugars because it's more efficient given the limited space.

But if tank size is not an issue ( as in if I have a 100l tank , and I'm putting in 80l to mash and I want about 60-70l of sweet wort) , and you have a good Tun plate and intend to strain all your first liquour ( full preboil volume ) through the grain , I reckon you will extract sufficient sugars . I could be wrong , in which case I'll have to Recirculate . ( which is more complex )

As I said , the Commercial brewery I visited , didn't sparge as far as I saw , but recirculated the Hot liqour through the grains 2- 4 times , to ensure full saturation of the Liqour , before sending it on to boil. After fermentation they would water down to retail strength ( the beer would be in the 6.5-7.5 % by volume range prior to watering down )

Now I think that in a home set up , without recirculating and adding my full volume of water at the start of the mash , I should be able to brew a beer that comes out at about 5% (give or take )

time will tell.

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

But if tank size is not an issue ( as in if I have a 100l tank , and I'm putting in 80l to mash and I want about 60-70l of sweet wort) , and you have a good Tun plate and intend to strain all your first liquour ( full preboil volume ) through the grain , I reckon you will extract sufficient sugars . I could be wrong , in which case I'll have to Recirculate . ( which is more complex )

As I said , the Commercial brewery I visited , didn't sparge as far as I saw , but recirculated the Hot liqour through the grains 2- 4 times , to ensure full saturation of the Liqour , before sending it on to boil. After fermentation they would water down to retail strength ( the beer would be in the 6.5-7.5 % by volume range prior to watering down )

Now I think that in a home set up , without recirculating and adding my full volume of water at the start of the mash , I should be able to brew a beer that comes out at about 5% (give or take ) .

You can certainly do a no sprarg mash, most people do it for high gravity beer with the option off a second beer. It would be quite wasteful for as standard beer but its your money.

I would be very surprised if a commercial brewery does not sparg as the difference in a few % extract is their profit margin. I would love to know what brewery could throw away 30-40% extract and survive, my money as that where doing a party gyle method and getting a second beer from a second mash,fullers do this method.

Recirculating will increase some extract but its not going to replace a sparge, and is used a lot to do step mashes. I would implore you not to do high gravity brewing, one its can be difficult (ester formation in fermentation) and more importantly its as nasty practice from mega brewers

BeerNut

Bloke down the pub told me high-gravity buggers up your head retention as well.

oblivious

BeerNut wrote: »

Bloke down the pub told me high-gravity buggers up your head retention as well.

That probably with be higher alcohol production

Wallacebiy

http://www.twine.com/item/118wngw20-2p3/no-sparge-batch-sparge-recipe-formulation

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=26951


http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/9-all-grain-brewing/1407-skip-the-sparge



I just did a bit of internetting and , yep I think I'm going to aim for a no sparge brewing process , given the arguements I see in the links above ( both for and against)


Sparging ( as I suspected ) is a relatively new thing in brewing it seems . I reckon I'm a bit of a purist at heart.

noby

As you say capacity won't be a problem, but your efficiency will be down, so you're using more grain for the same end result. Obviously you're aware of this, so best of luck. Keep us posted with your updates.

Wallacebiy

oblivious wrote: »

You can certainly do a no sprarg mash, most people do it for high gravity beer with the option off a second beer. It would be quite wasteful for as standard beer but its your money.

I would be very surprised if a commercial brewery does not sparg as the difference in a few % extract is their profit margin. I would love to know what brewery could throw away 30-40% extract and survive, my money as that where doing a party gyle method and getting a second beer from a second mash,fullers do this method.

Recirculating will increase some extract but its not going to replace a sparge, and is used a lot to do step mashes. I would implore you not to do high gravity brewing, one its can be difficult (ester formation in fermentation) and more importantly its as nasty practice from mega brewers

Possible that they were re-using the mash afterwards , they made Stout, Red Ale and a number of BUL lagers ( I reckon the Red Ale may have used the same grains ?)

You've opened up a whole bevy of questions and doubts for me , But realistically I want to brew a single beer , well . I'm not overly concerned with efficiency ( any beer I brew will be cheaper than buying commercially, and I'm not one to split hairs about percentages , if I was it wouldn't be Homebrew it would be commercial brew ) I don't intend to brew high gravity ( I think you misunderstood , I reckon that without a sparge , but with a good tun plate I should get a nice strength beer )




Oops forgot to post this earlier !!

guildofevil

Wallacebiy, I can guarantee you that that commercial brewery sparged. They may not have explained it very well, but I will bet you anything you like that they sparged.

The recirculation of wort you described is also a standard part of the brewing process and it happens before the sparge. The purpose of the recirculation step (also know as vorlauf) is to use the grain bed as a filter to remove certain lipids and other elements of the wort which have an adverse affect on beer stability and flavour.

You could mash with the whole pre boil volume of liquid if you wish, but you would be diluting the diastatic enzymes, which are responsible for converting starch to sugar. Now, with an all malt grist and good pH and temperature control, you could probably get away with that. But if you want to make a traditional Irish Stout, for instance, your grain bill would probably be something in the region of 70% malted barley, with the rest being flaked barley and roasted barley, neither of which bring any diastatic enzymes to the party.

Another thing to consider is that you are leaving a significant part of the sugars you created behind in the grain. If you examine the calculations in the BYO article you posted a link to, you will see that. I should point out that that article is by John Palmer, who's book both Oblivous and I recommended. In the latest edition of his book, published since the article, he recommends sparging and describes both batch and fly sparging techniques.

You are right that sparging is only a couple of hundred years old, but there is a reason that is has been universally adopted in that time: it works. Also note that before the invention of sparging (mostly known as fly sparging), they did something called re-mashing, which is basically what we now call batch sparging or they did party gyle brewing, which Oblivious already mentioned, making more than one beer out if a single mash.

Have you considered that the fact that a no sparge system means that you are literally throwing away the makings of that second beer?

I know several people who have tried no sparge brewing and it is an interesting thing to do, but they always go back to sparging.

Why are you so dead set against sparging? You are talking about getting a serious setup, which will set you back quite a few quid, why lock yourself into an inefficient no sparge system? Is is just to save the cost of the Hot Liquor Tank?

Have a good think before you invest. Ask yourself why every all grain system out there is set up to sparge and why every brewing book written in the past couple of centuries includes sparging as a matter of course.

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Possible that they were re-using the mash afterwards , they made Stout, Red Ale and a number of BUL lagers ( I reckon the Red Ale may have used the same grains ?)

Was that Beamish?, the red ale would use same malt bill I believe, but with lower % of roasted malt and I think there is some where around 15% glucose syrup added in the boil

Wallacebiy wrote: »

I reckon that without a sparge, but with a good tun plate I should get a nice strength beer )

your false bottom is going to have a major role here, most homebrewers use a copper manifold or a stainless steal Brade system. But if you are getting a system, a false bottom like THIS will really help

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Sparging ( as I suspected ) is a relatively new thing in brewing it seems . I reckon I'm a bit of a purist at heart.

Fly sparing is and this is use mostly commercially but a few home brewers do, also . But getting a number of different strength beers off a single mash is old technique

Wallacebiy

oblivious wrote: »

Was that Beamish?, the red ale would use same malt bill I believe, but with lower % of roasted malt and I think there is some where around 15% glucose syrup added in the boil

Well Guessed , Can't remember but I don't think they add glucose syrup

your false bottom is going to have a major role here, most homebrewers use a copper manifold or a stainless steal Brade system. But if you are getting a system, a false bottom like THIS will really help

Yep that's exactly what I'm thinking

Fly sparing is and this is use mostly commercially but a few home brewers do, also . But getting a number of different strength beers off a single mash is old technique

Having read these up there is a sweet spot somewhere near the figures I quoted , which isn't so inefficient at all.

I'm Not really anti sparging , I'm looking at this from a design and energy point of view. The grain is probably the cheaper of the ingredients in this whole setup , the heat added is the most expensive ingredient in the process.

Simplicity and repeatability are what I want in my process . If I wanted to tinker around and experiment , maybe grain efficiencey would be a bigger deal to me . I really want it to be straightforward and as easy as possible to brew ( good Stout )

guildofevil

Whether you add it at the start of the mash or use it to sparge, you still have to heat the same amount of water.

And sparging is not difficult. Seriously, read my article about the basic process and tell me that the batch sparging I describe is difficult.

guildofevil

The grain is actually the most expensive ingredient and I am including energy costs.

An average brew making 23 litres of 4.x% Vol. beer on my system breaks down as follows:

1 Pack of dry yeast: €2.
50g - 60g Hops: About €4.
4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)
10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity: €1.60
(Assumes my 2.4Kw element running for 4 hours, which is longer than I have ever actually used it).

oblivious

guildofevil wrote: »

4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)

Yep, 3kg is around 9.50

noby

guildofevil wrote: »

1 Pack of dry yeast: €2.
50g - 60g Hops: About €4.
4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)
10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity: €1.60

Sitting back with a pint of your own beer: Priceless!

Wallacebiy

guildofevil wrote: »

The grain is actually the most expensive ingredient and I am including energy costs.

An average brew making 23 litres of 4.x% Vol. beer on my system breaks down as follows:

1 Pack of dry yeast: €2.
50g - 60g Hops: About €4.
4Kg of Pale Malt: About €8.50
(Assumes it was bought in a 25kg sack. Smaller packs are more expensive per Kg as are speciality malts.)
10 Kilowatt Hours of electricity: €1.60
(Assumes my 2.4Kw element running for 4 hours, which is longer than I have ever actually used it).

2 things

1 ) I'll be buying whole malted grain for about 1 eur a kilo ( I live near a Maltings )
2) I get cheap electricity .

( Now I need to get a mill too !!)


I've looked into Palmers online version of the book . there's some great chemistry in there and explanations of Water and how it interacts with the grain during mashing and how different enzymes interact at different Ph levels and temperatures to break off sugars .

My gut feeling from this is that if I wanted to produce anything like pils or possibly ales or bitters I would need to sparge , but for the stout I want to make it'll be more important to get the mix of roast and unroasted malt right.


If you think about it simply sugars are soluble and the type of water you are using should dissolve as much of them as it can chemically dissolve for a given volume , at the temp you mash . it shouldn't matter whether the full volume is present at the beginning of the mash or added afterwards. Efficiency is then gained more from controlling the conditions for converting the starches into different types of sugar . this has to be balanced with flavouring from insoluble bits that remain suspended in the wort.

Having looked at it in more detail now , I reckon that for my stout , given what I know of water conditions in Cork , I won't need to sparge . I may need to recirculate the wort , to filter it through the grain bed and create a clearer wort. I will need to

A) use a stepped temperature in the Mash ( possibly around 60C for 15 mins 68.5 for the remainder )

figure out the optimum amount of Black roasted Malt to get the Ph right in the total wort ( I'm thinking around 15 % )


If I want to brew any other types of beer ( which I probably will ) I will need to Sparge , to get the right flavours into the beer . I'll have to mull alot over that to get it right and probably do a whole pile of maths , but there it is , c'est la vie.

Wallacebiy

oblivious wrote: »

Was that Beamish?, the red ale would use same malt bill I believe, but with lower % of roasted malt and I think there is some where around 15% glucose syrup added in the boil

I had a good think about this , and while I didn't pay as much attention to the explanation of the red ale as I did to everything else I think I remember the same percentage of roasted malt being mentioned , but instead of all full roast , it was mostly a lighter roast .

If I remember right the figures may have been 85% unroasted , 10% light roast and 5% dark roast . I'm guessing here though .



I might actually have a print out somewhere, I vaguely remember getting one , but TBH the 6-8 pints in the brewery Bar afterwards wiped some of the memory.


I might post up the write up I did after I got the tour . might be of interest.

marceldesailly

Not really sure why you don't want to sparge but sure i like burning my money, so each to their own.
Also how much malt will you be buying to get it for €1 a kilo?a few tonnes? If you do manage to get it this cheap pass on info please.
Why do you want a clearer wort for a stout?It will be black and soluble proteins wont be seen. Surely you would recirculate for all your beers fopr clarity whther or not you sparge

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

2 things

1 ) I'll be buying whole malted grain for about 1 eur a kilo ( I live near a Maltings ).

If its Greencore, I thought they only supplied by the ton?

Wallacebiy wrote: »

I've looked into Palmers online version of the book . there's some great chemistry in there and explanations of Water and how it interacts with the grain during mashing and how different enzymes interact at different Ph levels and temperatures to break off sugars .

My gut feeling from this is that if I wanted to produce anything like pils or possibly ales or bitters I would need to sparge , but for the stout I want to make it'll be more important to get the mix of roast and unroasted malt right.

Two different thing, sparging is just washing the converted sugar from the grain. Getting the recipe right is important for every beer, Here is a good clone of Guinness 70% pale malt 20% flaked barely (the stuff you see in healt food shops) and 10-9% roasted barley, yeast Irish ale yeast (HERE)

I do have one for beamish but I will have to dig it out

Wallacebiy wrote: »

If you think about it simply sugars are soluble and the type of water you are using should dissolve as much of them as it can chemically dissolve for a given volume , at the temp you mash . it shouldn't matter whether the full volume is present at the beginning of the mash or added afterwards.

It does matter on the volume, but you over come this by increase the malt bill to compensate. The best efficiency is obtained for mashing and sparing each with 50% of your water

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Efficiency is then gained more from controlling the conditions for converting the starches into different types of sugar . this has to be balanced with flavouring from insoluble bits that remain suspended in the wort.

Not really, thats the relative fermenability , while a hotter mash will increase the efficiency a bit, it will effect the over all fermentiblity of the mash

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Having looked at it in more detail now , I reckon that for my stout , given what I know of water conditions in Cork , I won't need to sparge . I may need to recirculate the wort , to filter it through the grain bed and create a clearer wort. I will need to

There is no really correlation of worth clearness and final produce as long as you don't have grain husk in the runnings. The hot break and copper finnings are much mire important

Wallacebiy wrote: »

A) use a stepped temperature in the Mash ( possibly around 60C for 15 mins 68.5 for the remainder )

figure out the optimum amount of Black roasted Malt to get the Ph right in the total wort ( I'm thinking around 15 % )

you can do a step mash if you want but single infusion works fine with modern malts, 15% of black patent is a massive amount, around 10-9% of roasted barely will get you in the area

Wallacebiy wrote: »

If I want to brew any other types of beer ( which I probably will ) I will need to Sparge , to get the right flavours into the beer . I'll have to mull alot over that to get it right and probably do a whole pile of maths , but there it is , c'est la vie.

Get you self a copy of Promash a brewing calculating software, it has a free demo version but worth buying

http://www.promash.com/

Wallacebiy

marceldesailly wrote: »

Not really sure why you don't want to sparge but sure i like burning my money, so each to their own.
Also how much malt will you be buying to get it for €1 a kilo?a few tonnes? If you do manage to get it this cheap pass on info please.
Why do you want a clearer wort for a stout?It will be black and soluble proteins wont be seen. Surely you would recirculate for all your beers for clarity whther or not you sparge

Bags of 10 Kgs as I said I live near the Maltings , and I'll have to crush it myself ( may buy prepacked roasted malt though )
Recirculate , to take out bigger lumps of things that would make the beer cloudy and brownish. May still have to use finings though .



On the sparging , as I said above . It looks like I'll have to sparge if I want to make ales or pils or weis beers, but it seems to me like an unecessary step in the stout I want to brew. the only advantage I can see is a smaller Tun, but that's offset by the need for another Boiler .


I may reconsider my design and allow for sparging , but as I'm looking at starting form scratch , I'm thinking a large Tun can be installed , and I'd rather have the extra capacity and be looking at it , than not have it and be looking for it .

Wallacebiy

Oblivious : - ( not qouting for ease here )

Cheers for that link for the yeast. I was thinking I'd have to go begging at the University for some decent yeast, that looks just the job !!

I'll PM You the Malting Co. if you like ( not sure whether they'd like it all over here or not , but I looked in the phone book and phoned the local malting co and that's what they quoted me ).


I think you're missing the point I made about the solubility of sugars in water .
Yes sparging washes the sugars out of the grain . But only because there wasn't enough Volume in the original amount to absorb those sugars ( the enzymes convert what they convert for the conditions no matter what the initial volume)
If the original Volume was sufficient to absorb those sugars than they wouldn't be left in the grain . the problem though is that the Total Volume is limited in ist's absorbtion by the pre-existing Bicarbonates, salts , minerals and Ions already contained in the water. Different water conditions will have different characteristics in their ability to absorb. they will also affect the enzymes ability to process ( leading to more or less malty tastes and fermentability in the Wort) Sparging is a way to have more control over this .
It also probably has an energy benefit, it probably uses less energy to keep X amount of water at Y degrees for an hour then add 2X at that temperature at the end than keep 3X of water at Y degrees for an hour .

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Oblivious : - ( not qouting for ease here )

Cheers for that link for the yeast. I was thinking I'd have to go begging at the University for some decent yeast, that looks just the job !!

I'll PM You the Malting Co. if you like ( not sure whether they'd like it all over here or not , but I looked in the phone book and phoned the local malting co and that's what they quoted me ).


I think you're missing the point I made about the solubility of sugars in water .
Yes sparging washes the sugars out of the grain . But only because there wasn't enough Volume in the original amount to absorb those sugars ( the enzymes convert what they convert for the conditions no matter what the initial volume)

If the original Volume was sufficient to absorb those sugars than they wouldn't be left in the grain . the problem though is that the Total Volume is limited in ist's absorbtion by the pre-existing Bicarbonates, salts , minerals and Ions already contained in the water. Different water conditions will have different characteristics in their ability to absorb.

they will also affect the enzymes ability to process ( leading to more or less malty tastes and fermentability in the Wort) Sparging is a way to have more control over this .

Sorry but no, to get the same gravity as a sparge you will have to increase you malt bill to compicate. If add all you water at the startthis will work but at the cost of the % extraction no matter what the water profile or strike temp

As for dissolved salts these will form ions these ion will effect the ph with in turn will ultimately effect the rate of active of the amylases and thus the fermentibility. Roasted malt or barley will drop the ph of water, water with high bicarbonates suite stout/porter brewing as the Roasted material will bring down the ph of the water to around 5.2


Sparing is not going to change your fermentibilty, that will be decide by your mash temp

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Cheers for that link for the yeast. I was thinking I'd have to go begging at the University for some decent yeast, that looks just the job !!

The http://thehomebrewcompany.ie usually stock it along with other yeast.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

I think you're missing the point I made about the solubility of sugars in water .
Yes sparging washes the sugars out of the grain . But only because there wasn't enough Volume in the original amount to absorb those sugars ( the enzymes convert what they convert for the conditions no matter what the initial volume)

If the original Volume was sufficient to absorb those sugars than they wouldn't be left in the grain . the problem though is that the Total Volume is limited in ist's absorbtion by the pre-existing Bicarbonates, salts , minerals and Ions already contained in the water. Different water conditions will have different characteristics in their ability to absorb.

they will also affect the enzymes ability to process ( leading to more or less malty tastes and fermentability in the Wort) Sparging is a way to have more control over this .

Sorry, but to get the same gravity as a sparge you will have to increase you malt bill to adjust. If add all you water at the start this will work but at the cost of the % extraction no matter what the water profile or strike temp.

As for dissolved salts these will form ions these ion will effect the ph with in turn will ultimately effect the rate of active of the amylases and thus the fermentibility. Roasted malt or barley will drop the ph of water, water with high bicarbonates suite stout/porter brewing as the Roasted material will bring down the ph of the water to around 5.2. Sparing is not going to change your fermentibilty, that will be decide by your mash temp

Wallacebiy

Really lads , what you are trying to say is that 2 small cups of sugar is more than one big cup of sugar . You do realise that .

The volume of water in the initial mash does affect the conversion of sugars , because it affects the PH of the mash

If the temperature is the same in the two set ups , and the grain amount is the same in the 2 set ups and the total volume of water is the same in the 2 set ups it's the Ph that is different during the mash if you are Sparging or not sparging . That affects the conversion in the mash.

Now I'm not saying I won't have to increase the grain bill , I probably will, to get the ideal ph in the water volume I'm using . I reckon that adjustment will come in the form of the Roast malt %

This may be why I'll be using about 15% roast Barley instead of the 9-10 % as suggested above ,
With a sparge the higher % roast barley would overly affect the Ph , without
it should make conditions ideal


I realise of course until I brew this is all hypothetical discussion . I'm not opposed to sparging in any way . I just don't think it's the right thing for me to do given the stout I want . As I've said , the water I have is going to need help if I want to brew pils style beer or pale ales , so I'll most likely have to sparge for that ,


Brewing . probably the best thing in the world .

oblivious

Wallacebiy wrote: »

Really lads , what you are trying to say is that 2 small cups of sugar is more than one big cup of sugar . You do realise that .

Its not quite the same, the sugar need to be wash from the grain. You do just dissolved table table sugar in a pot. An its not just made up of one simple sugar, its contains both simple, complex lipids, tannins and protein all of which are going to extract a slightly different rates

Wallacebiy wrote: »

The volume of water in the initial mash does affect the conversion of sugars , because it affects the PH of the mash

But its does have an effect, a thick mash favors protein degeneration and a thin mash carbohydrate as in the starch chains. Not massive I will give yuo but an a very low mash temp and thick mash can effect head retention as some of the poplypeptides are degraded to much.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

If the temperature is the same in the two set ups , and the grain amount is the same in the 2 set ups and the total volume of water is the same in the 2 set ups it's the Ph that is different during the mash if you are Sparging or not sparging . That affects the conversion in the mash.

The only time that sparing has effect on ph is with fly or continous, as the grain is washed its the ph will rise extracting tannins, which can give a harsh tea like taste. Batch or no sparge does not allow leeching from the grain and thus one your ph is set you dont have to worries about it again. you can also do a quick litmus test to check ph or invest in a ph probe. But the first is as good as any.

Wallacebiy wrote: »

This may be why I'll be using about 15% roast Barley instead of the 9-10 % as suggested above ,
With a sparge the higher % roast barley would overly affect the Ph , without
it should make conditions ideal .

If your are really worried about the ph, you can use some Five Star 5.2 pH Stabilizer:

One tablespoon of 5.2 per 5 gallon batch and your water is instantly adjusted to the perfect ph of 5.2, no matter what your starting ph was. It will not add any flavors to your mash water whatsoever. 5.2 optimizes the enzymatic activity of your malt, helps to clarify the wort, and may even help to raise your starting gravities. Also, using 5.2 in the boil will give you more consistent hop usage, and will also keep hard water salts in solution, which will result in less scaling in your heat exchangers, fermenters, and kegs.

http://thehomebrewcompany.ie sell it

You can certainty do as I have said before a No sparge brew, but you have to change certain parameters either the final volume or the grist size. One method that may suite you would running of a much higher gravity that you need in a smaller volume and then add water to hit the pre boil gravity you want and this is all done before you boil.

Wallacebiy

Gents
I just have to say that this is the most enjoyable , and decent discussion I've had in a long time on any subject whatsoever . I really can't wait to start brewing . I will be taking heed of everything in here , as it will all help my brewing , even if I want to do my stout in a no sparge mash to try and make it as beautiful as I can , I do realise that for any other brewing I might do at all
sparging is probably the best way to go.



I just have to sort about a million things ( kettles , heaters , pipes , coolers , fermentors, yeast grain/ conditioning tanks , kegs and bottles, sanitisers )


It'll be busy , and it's likely I won't be posting my success ( or failure ) in here for about 6months or more ,

But I will keep it updated.

oblivious

Best of luck with the hobby, there are few home brewers down cork that might let you tag along of a brew to help get you up and running faster

Wallacebiy

I've sourced a free standard Beer keg , that I'm considering converting for use in my plant .

Anyone experienced in converting Keggs to kettles ?

Or is there some better use I could put it to ( conditioning tank for instance )

oblivious

Here is a run through and a few videos, and its called a keggle (keg and kettle:P)

Video
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=14856

Some more video

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-keggle-conversion-video-28979/



http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=31646

Wallacebiy

oblivious wrote: »

Here is a run through and a few videos, and its called a keggle (keg and kettle:P)

Video
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?threadid=14856

Some more video

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-keggle-conversion-video-28979/



http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=31646

Those links are great , I'm gonna make this the mashing tun

cavedave

Wallacebiy
Investigating to start my own "picobrewery"

When I were a lad , de brother and I were into kit brewing ( in plastic buckets and such ) we had good successes. But that was a long time ago .

With the imminent closing of my favourite commercial brewery ( Beamish ) I've decided to build my own mini brewing plant at home ( I now own a house , I think it'll be a good addition )

Building a brewery is the dream of many. You can make great beer with some buckets and a pot. So while its fun to look at putting together all this kit it might be worth just making up some simple brews with basic kit and then deciding a bit later whether you want (and how you want) to build a brewery.

Wallacebiy

cavedave wrote: »

Building a brewery is the dream of many. You can make great beer with some buckets and a pot. So while its fun to look at putting together all this kit it might be worth just making up some simple brews with basic kit and then deciding a bit later whether you want (and how you want) to build a brewery.

I reckon I'm just going to skip the pot and bucket brewing , grand and all as it is . I just think it'll be easier in the long run ( on both me and the wife ) if I just set up the kit I need in the wasted shedspace I have down the back .
I really want to just make myself self sufficient really . And in Partnership with the brother that translates to about 60L brew every 2 months or so . It just makes more sense to do that as economically and repeatable as possible .

I'm reckoning now in the order of :
Keg - Free ( use this for a mashing tun with aabout 100 euros conversion cost )
Hop Boiler - willing to spend about 250 on this
Fermenter - Willing to spend the same on that ( maybe stretch to 300 )
Sundries ( piping filtering cooling thermometers hydrometers etc , 100)

Kegging / bottling kit about 200


total spend on kit less than 1000 euro . Equivalent to about a years entertainment between us .

Ongoing costs of about 50 euros a brew . ( 300 per year )

total for first years brewing 1300 euros . 300 per year after .
over 5 years allowing for a little inflation and maintenence that's maybe 3000 total

That's 1500 each over 5 years , meaning 300 euros each a year.

I reckon that makes good sense , even if I underestimated by 20% that's still pretty cheap .

Now I'm not sure , but I think most 23l kit brews in decent buckets etc work out about 1.50 a litre . For two guys , brewing the same amount via the pot and bucket method would work out at €540 per year.


Now there is a good advantage to smaller scale brewing , and that's variety . variety is a a great thing and not to be knocked at all , and is probably great fun .
I'm really interested in doing this though under the terms I've laid out above .




That said I am considering doing a scaled batch to test my recipe ( for no sparge stout ) so I'm considering mashing that in a ten litre pot .
that might be fun , but I got to get some of my sundries for that ( thermometers hydrometer , etc )

cavedave

That said I am considering doing a scaled batch to test my recipe ( for no sparge stout ) so I'm considering mashing that in a ten litre pot .
that might be fun , but I got to get some of my sundries for that ( thermometers hydrometer , etc )

That does sound like a good idea just to make sure your intended workflow (or drinkflow) makes sense.

There are a few guys on this thread who brew great beer (ive tasted it) so Ill leave it to them to advise on setups and recipes.