Sinn Fein these days

Liam Byrne

Jon wrote: »

No it wasn't sanctioned by the AC as they stated, but it was claimed as an IRA operation.

"claimed as".....now there's a "get out of jail free" card if I ever saw one.

It either was or it wasn't. Simple as. Having read stories of how the IRA even kneecapped their own if they went against the head honchos ("AC" gives them a legitimacy that they don't deserve - they're not an "army") then I can't see how they'd go "we didn't tell you to do that, and you landed us in the ****, but we'll say you did".

Obfuscation and bull****.

Yes, other parties do that too, but it doesn't normally result in terrorists shooting law-enforcement officers on a quiet street.

Oh, re K-9's confusion about the "robbery" ..... easy mistake to make when you consider that with the cops shot and disabled, and all the public running for cover, THEY LEFT THE MONEY BEHIND.

Robbery my arse.

And - relating back to our earlier discussion about SF and the word "republican" being a dirty word - why in God's name would SF have ANYTHING TO DO with a bunch of armed criminals who shoot Gardai in a country other than where they're "active" ? If they want to be part of this country, that's one hell of a way of showing people that you respect the country and its laws!

P.S. Disagreeing with your viewpoint isn't trolling, but at least you've given up the bull**** about it being something I read in the Indo. But re the "trolling", I'm surprised that as a mod you're not familiar with the fact that you're meant to report suspected trolls and let the mods decide, instead of trying to discredit my posts by suggesting that that's what I'm doing.

Of course, it might be easier for you if K-9 and myself weren't highlighting the obvious holes in your points.......a bit like "Section 31" (the removal of which I've supported elsewhere) where you just make sure no-one hears opposing points of view.

TOMASJ

Originally Posted by TOMASJ
does that include british army regiments involved in the murder of innocent people in the six counties, Iraq, and Afghanistan,. and by association the british government and their supporters.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Where did I say that it didn't ?

can you point me to where you said that it did.

anladmór

i agree with sinn fein a lot except for their views on EU.

yomchi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"claimed as".....now there's a "get out of jail free" card if I ever saw one.

It either was or it wasn't. Simple as. Having read stories of how the IRA even kneecapped their own if they went against the head honchos ("AC" gives them a legitimacy that they don't deserve - they're not an "army") then I can't see how they'd go "we didn't tell you to do that, and you landed us in the ****, but we'll say you did".

Obfuscation and bull****.

Yes, other parties do that too, but it doesn't normally result in terrorists shooting law-enforcement officers on a quiet street.

Oh, re K-9's confusion about the "robbery" ..... easy mistake to make when you consider that with the cops shot and disabled, and all the public running for cover, THEY LEFT THE MONEY BEHIND.

Robbery my arse.

And - relating back to our earlier discussion about SF and the word "republican" being a dirty word - why in God's name would SF have ANYTHING TO DO with a bunch of armed criminals who shoot Gardai in a country other than where they're "active" ? If they want to be part of this country, that's one hell of a way of showing people that you respect the country and its laws!

P.S. Disagreeing with your viewpoint isn't trolling, but at least you've given up the bull**** about it being something I read in the Indo. But re the "trolling", I'm surprised that as a mod you're not familiar with the fact that you're meant to report suspected trolls and let the mods decide, instead of trying to discredit my posts by suggesting that that's what I'm doing.

Of course, it might be easier for you if K-9 and myself weren't highlighting the obvious holes in your points.......a bit like "Section 31" (the removal of which I've supported elsewhere) where you just make sure no-one hears opposing points of view.

A post based on ignorance and what ifs. And also highly confusing - whats with all the hypothetical paraphrasing? I can't see your point through it.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

can you point me to where you said that it did.

Let me see....

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Scum that shoot innocent people are scum, and the people who condone and campaign for them are scum.

Considering that the above was not only posted, but quoted by someone as well, it's kinda hard to miss.

What are you saying ? That because I didn't include a "side", that you're allowed to assume I meant one and then attack me for not saying the other ? :rolleyes: Get real, please!

Jon wrote: »

A post based on ignorance and what ifs. And also highly confusing -

If there's any "ignorance" or confusion in there it's because - due to SF/IRA's u-turns on what it suited them to say - the average person hasn't a clue whether it was or wasn't an IRA operation.

By all means, discuss the points and - if you can - refute them one by one; probably easier to try - again - to deflect the issues raised, which were :

1) It either was or wasn't an IRA operation; first it wasn't, then it was, then SF started campaigning for their release and were photographed with the murderers in prison - hardly the actions of a reputable political party; for all their bull****, I haven't seen an FF TD photographed alongside Ray Burke, have you ?

2) With Gardai disabled (one dead, one seriously wounded), the "robbers" left the money behind ? Strange, that.

3) If SF want to unite the country and persuade the North to join us, how can they have ANYTHING TO DO with a bunch of armed criminals who shoot Gardai in this country ? It's not going to show people how to respect the country and its laws!

4) You accused me of trolling, which - as a mod - you should know isn't the way to deal with posts you object to. If you genuinely reckoned it was a troll, you'd have reported it and gotten it dealt with; but you know for a fact it wasn't, so therefore you're trying to discredit it instead.

Jon wrote: »

whats with all the hypothetical paraphrasing? I can't see your point through it.

Please go look up "hypothetical" for a start.....having rephrased the post it's still as crystal clear as the first time....maybe you just don't want to see the points.

Of course, you could always be looking to win the "debater of the year"...trying to discredit and dismiss a valid post with perfectly clear points simply because it doesn't suit your viewpoint :rolleyes:

If you want to answer the above, fire away - THAT'S the way to discuss and debate. But quit trying to label me as ignorant, having earlier - INCORRECTLY - suggested that I read and take my opinions from the Indo, it's pretty pathetic to try another angle on the same tack......

Next time you try that as a tactic I'll gladly use the "report post" function.....like I said, if you want to discuss the issues raised, fire away - even if we have opposing views, it's a debate/discussion and we're both entitled to our views, as is everyone else....

But trying to label me every time you disagree ? That's personal, and I won't tolerate it.

K-9

Jon wrote: »

You quite obviously DO NOT know or remember the political posturing and events of 1996 when Jerry McCabe was shot. You either do not know, nor remember the relevance of statements issued by the IRA at the time nor understand the political climate approaching the 2nd ceasefire.
So instead of me clogging up your thread with facts, just go and search them out and then come back with your opinion, once you base your opinion on fact then your going somewhere, whether anyone agrees with it or not, you can rely on fact.

They either meant it wasn't AC sanctioned or it wasn't.

Jon wrote: »

Case in point. It was a post office not a bank. No it wasn't sanctioned by the AC as they stated, but it was claimed as an IRA operation.
Do yourself a favour and read up on it, I'll take it up with you when you do.

An IRA operation that resulted in the murder of a Guard.

Jon wrote: »

Nothing childish here. You just haven't a bogs even about the very simple parts of what you're trying to argue.

You have no clue, nor any facts.

Explain the facts oh knowledgeable one. If it is simple it shouldn't be hard to explain.

It isn't hard to explain the position on this thread. You seem to want a debate but not answer simple questions. Some would say you are avoiding tough questions and being deliberately evasive.

TOMASJ

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What are you saying ? That because I didn't include a "side",
that you're allowed to assume I meant one

yes that's what I am saying, you seem to be hesitant to include in your posts, the likes of the UDR, SAS and RIR as murdering SCUM,

and then attack me for not saying the other ? :rolleyes: Get real, please!

No one attacked you,
its just that its hard to find a post from you that "clearly refers to the british army as SCUM for the killing they have been involved in, but not at all hard to find reference by you to the IRA as SCUM, now if you could stop playing about with words it might help make you posts a bit clearer

walrusgumble

stakey wrote: »

That's hardly experience. Since its foundation the assembly has spent more time being suspended than it has spent in session. They run an economy that is financed hugely by the British government and with 63% of the people working in the public sector Sinn Fein wouldn't know how to manage a large private sector economy.

Sinn Fein (and the other Northern Irish political parties) have absolutely no idea how to run a country. At least Labour and Fine Gael have actually had time in government making important decisions that aren't based on rediculous things like what flag flies over a building.

experience???? almost ten years ago, enda's stint as tourism minister is hardly encouraging is it?

yes john burton's proposal in the 1980's about taxing children's clothes was a great one. bar the 1994-97 government which was pretty good, please show evidence of fine gael's fine policies prior to this. garreth fitzgerald, whilst no one could attack such a fine intellect, comes across very knowledgable now days on economic issues in his article for the times, yet the old saying goes... any time he was taoiseach people were on the dole.

i must say, you are one ignorant ba*&ard in relation to your final comment. mods, ok i dont like using strong language against others on this board, but this idiot has no bloody understanding or care about the amount of trouble people (dont even dare make comments about whether or not they were ra boys and girls) in the 6 counties use to get into for having a tricolour in their possession. many of us have family members who have sacrificed and died to have the tricolour fly over our government buildings.

the nation is more than just an economy. our parents have being in this boat before, so have our grandparents. they did not pi*& and moan like alot of irish people are doing now, they got on with it. any one who actually thought that this period of prosperity was going to last forever is a complete idiot. you look even as far back as 2002, look how many buildings were being erected around town lands and cities... shoe box apartments for sky high fees, where were the affordable social housing. why was there still such a huge waiting list for first time buyers considering there were nearly more houses beign errected than people actually living in the area.


people of ireland have got to get real. sinn fein are now an established party. unionists are sitting with them in power. this is good for the six countries. these groups need irish, british and american government's continued support. it does not help when some people, who, in the words of another post, take their news from the media, continue spouting them as being murders scum. sinn fein are recongised all over the world as an established poltical party and have being since the days of bill clinton. spouting shi* to sinn fein politicans etc who have no baggage or connection with the troubles in the north is futile from now on. its time to move on. if we can, as it seems from many attitudes amongst irish people, accept and seem to forget the actions/utterance/allegiance of loyalist and unionist parties over the years, then its time to do the same with sinn fein.

by all means, if one is to critise sinn finn, fine, but do so in a relevant and constructive manner. groups like sinn fein and dup (extremist) are here to stay.

K-9

walrusgumble wrote: »

by all means, if one is to critise sinn finn, fine, but do so in a relevant and constructive manner. groups like sinn fein and dup (extremist) are here to stay.

Agree with your post. It shouldn't be hard to answer simple questions though.

Liam Byrne

TOMASJ wrote: »

its just that its hard to find a post from you that "clearly refers to the british army as SCUM for the killing they have been involved in, but not at all hard to find reference by you to the IRA as SCUM, now if you could stop playing about with words it might help make you posts a bit clearer

The post that I quoted above DOES NOT STATE EITHER SIDE.....The exact quote was "scum who murder innocent people are scum".

Clear as day. It's YOU who appear to have mentally added the "side". And you're completely wrong in doing so; I don't take sides when telling it like it is, and I don't defend the indefensible.

GuanYin

TOMASJ wrote: »

AS and RIR as murdering SCUM,

No one attacked you,
its just that its hard to find a post from you that "clearly refers to the british army as SCUM for the killing they have been involved in, but not at all hard to find reference by you to the IRA as SCUM, now if you could stop playing about with words it might help make you posts a bit clearer

Liam Byrne was quite obviously making a blanket statement about the murder of innocents and not limiting to a specified side.

While it may suit you to make a case that he meant otherwise, he has clarified and that is the end of the matter.

If you mis-represent him again, you will be sanctioned.

This is a moderation post - DO NOT REPLY IN THREAD - if you have any issues, you may PM.

FTA69

K-9 wrote: »

So was it an IRA operation?

Yes.

yomchi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

Let me see....



Considering that the above was not only posted, but quoted by someone as well, it's kinda hard to miss.

What are you saying ? That because I didn't include a "side", that you're allowed to assume I meant one and then attack me for not saying the other ? :rolleyes: Get real, please!



If there's any "ignorance" or confusion in there it's because - due to SF/IRA's u-turns on what it suited them to say - the average person hasn't a clue whether it was or wasn't an IRA operation.

By all means, discuss the points and - if you can - refute them one by one; probably easier to try - again - to deflect the issues raised, which were :

1) It either was or wasn't an IRA operation; first it wasn't, then it was, then SF started campaigning for their release and were photographed with the murderers in prison - hardly the actions of a reputable political party; for all their bull****, I haven't seen an FF TD photographed alongside Ray Burke, have you ?

2) With Gardai disabled (one dead, one seriously wounded), the "robbers" left the money behind ? Strange, that.

3) If SF want to unite the country and persuade the North to join us, how can they have ANYTHING TO DO with a bunch of armed criminals who shoot Gardai in this country ? It's not going to show people how to respect the country and its laws!

4) You accused me of trolling, which - as a mod - you should know isn't the way to deal with posts you object to. If you genuinely reckoned it was a troll, you'd have reported it and gotten it dealt with; but you know for a fact it wasn't, so therefore you're trying to discredit it instead.



Please go look up "hypothetical" for a start.....having rephrased the post it's still as crystal clear as the first time....maybe you just don't want to see the points.

Of course, you could always be looking to win the "debater of the year"...trying to discredit and dismiss a valid post with perfectly clear points simply because it doesn't suit your viewpoint :rolleyes:

If you want to answer the above, fire away - THAT'S the way to discuss and debate. But quit trying to label me as ignorant, having earlier - INCORRECTLY - suggested that I read and take my opinions from the Indo, it's pretty pathetic to try another angle on the same tack......

Next time you try that as a tactic I'll gladly use the "report post" function.....like I said, if you want to discuss the issues raised, fire away - even if we have opposing views, it's a debate/discussion and we're both entitled to our views, as is everyone else....

But trying to label me every time you disagree ? That's personal, and I won't tolerate it.

Liam, lol, what are your points?
If you write them out clearly I'll reply to them. However in all of that, there are TWO questions you're putting to me.
So I will answer them as best I can, from my own informed opinion.

To answer your first question:



To answer your second question, which is a bit of a daft one.

No one is asking the North to join 'us' - who the hell is us?
Sinn Féin are a national party, not a partitionist party, there is no 'us' - we are all the same. Uniting Ireland is about inclusivity, not hoping they'll join 'us' :rolleyes:

Secondly, even after the events in Adare Sinn Féin went on to secure 5 TD seats, 2 MEP seats a host of MLA seats and MP seats and improved on their number of city and county councillors by the hundred. Seems not everybody views the IRA as criminals, but an historical force on this island.
The Adare robbery was obviously one that went wrong. The securing of finances this way was common for the IRA, shooting Gardai was not common and was against the rules of the IRA - See 'The Dirty War' for references to the IRA's standing rules and orders.
You can scream and spit the dummy all you want, whats done is done and Sinn Féin are still a force to be reckoned with on this Island.

HYPOTHETICAL - Hypotheticals are situations, statements or questions about something imaginary rather than something real. ...

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_enIE300IE301&defl=en&q=define:hypothetical&ei=IraQSYTmCKSLjAfV1JS8Cg&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Posted by you

It either was or it wasn't. Simple as. Having read stories of how the IRA even kneecapped their own if they went against the head honchos ("AC" gives them a legitimacy that they don't deserve - they're not an "army") then I can't see how they'd go "we didn't tell you to do that, and you landed us in the ****, but we'll say you did".

Paraphrasing, hypothetically.

K-9

Jon wrote: »

The Adare robbery was obviously one that went wrong. The securing of finances this way was common for the IRA, shooting Gardai was not common and was against the rules of the IRA - See 'The Dirty War' for references to the IRA's standing rules and orders.

It was common.

Thanks FTA69 for a simple answer to a simple question.

yomchi

K-9 wrote: »

It was common.

Thanks FTA69 for a simple answer to a simple question.

How many Gardai were shot and killed?

K-9

Here you are:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/honour.html

yomchi

K-9 wrote: »

Here you are:
http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/honour.html

Are you taking the piss?
You're hilarious

There were 6 gardai killed in action by the IRA from 1969 onwards.

SIX.

In my estimation, and maths wasn't my strong point - but in 30 years of political violence - that ISN'T very common.

Lmao at your link. It lists EVERY garda death since the foundation of the state.
You my friend are the bizz.

K-9

Jon wrote: »

Are you taking the piss?
You're hilarious

There were 6 gardai killed in action by the IRA from 1969 onwards.

SIX.

In my estimation, and maths wasn't my strong point - but in 30 years of political violence - that ISN'T very common.

Lmao at your link. It lists EVERY garda death since the foundation of the state.
You my friend are the bizz.

You noticed that, 10/10 for observation.

If you were really observant you'd notice the 6 were UNARMED!

Heroes against SCUM, shooting unarmed Gardai, as in 2 cases, in the back or on the ground.

Liam Byrne

Jon wrote: »

Are you taking the piss?
You're hilarious

There were 6 gardai killed in action by the IRA from 1969 onwards.

SIX.

In my estimation, and maths wasn't my strong point - but in 30 years of political violence - that ISN'T very common.

Lmao at your link. It lists EVERY garda death since the foundation of the state.
You my friend are the bizz.

Your humanity and condolences have been noted and passed on to the families of those SIX real, unarmed, people who were shot serving this state. :rolleyes:

For the record, how many WOULD you view as "too many" ?

K-9

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Your humanity and condolences have been noted and passed on to the families of those SIX real, unarmed, people who were shot serving this state. :rolleyes:

For the record, how many WOULD you view as "too many" ?

Ach, shooting a Guard in the back or when he's lying on the ground after being shot, point blank in the face, is acceptable, unarmed or not.

I suppose as one mans definition of a terrorist is different, so is one mans definition of a hero.

Liam Byrne

Jon wrote: »

To answer your first question:

ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! :rolleyes:

You know WELL that I meant IN JAIL, or SINCE HE WAS CONVICTED.

I could well have been photographed with someone years ago who's now in jail; I would have had NO reason to disassociate myself from someone who hadn't YET (or at least to my knowledge) committed a crime.

Show me the page you got that on, including the article and date, and I might start to take you seriously.

Jon wrote: »

Sinn Féin are a national party, not a partitionist party, there is no 'us' - we are all the same. Uniting Ireland is about inclusivity, not hoping they'll join 'us' :rolleyes:

Aside from the obvious, recognised "nation", I'll actually partially concede that - a "united Ireland" might actually be viewed as a new entity, rather than rejoining the North to the existing state.

BUT

Jon wrote: »

Secondly, even after the events in Adare Sinn Féin went on to secure 5 TD seats

So, can you not see how being elected to the country's Dail - is completely at odds with supporting those who shoot Gardai ? Christ, people give Mary Harney enough grief about the irony of being "overweight" while Minister for Heath, let alone having TDs going into jail to smile for the cameras for people who shoot our police force.

Jon wrote: »

The Adare robbery was obviously one that went wrong.

Again, "Obvious" to whom ? Obvious to those who choose to believe whatever SF/IRA tell them, or obvious to people who are neutral or sceptical ?

Any chance of some hard FACTS that it went wrong, rather than using "obvious", which indicates an assumption on your part.

And I suppose you'll likewise assume that "Bloody Sunday" was "obviously" one that went wrong too ?

Jon wrote: »

The securing of finances this way was common for the IRA....

Don't even GO there with that; if they had enough support, they would have gotten cash from donations without helping themselves to OUR money. Which - I repeat - they didn't that day, despite it being there for the taking.

Jon wrote: »

You can scream and spit the dummy all you want, whats done is done and Sinn Féin are still a force to be reckoned with on this Island.

You're almost making me want to vote FF back in in the next election....at least we KNOW the level of corruption and two-facedness there, and while it's hard to stomach people who support con-artists and backhanders at least it doesn't extend to supporting people who murder others.

OhNoYouDidn't

K-9 wrote: »

You noticed that, 10/10 for observation.

If you were really observant you'd notice the 6 were UNARMED!

Heroes against SCUM, shooting unarmed Gardai, as in 2 cases, in the back or on the ground.

Gerry McCabe wasn't unarmed. Thats just one off the top of my head.

As an aside, ever asked yourself why the 'hero' cop was targetted by one member of the gang from the area? Interesting that McCabes disciplinary record was not allowed be entered into court..... 34 years a cop and not one promotion. Hmmm.

Life has lots of grey areas K-9. Heros against scum is a very simplified way to look at life.

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Gerry McCabe wasn't unarmed. Thats just one off the top of my head.

As an aside, ever asked yourself why the 'hero' cop was targetted by one member of the gang from the area? Interesting that McCabes disciplinary record was not allowed be entered into court..... 34 years a cop and not one promotion. Hmmm.

Life has lots of grey areas K-9. Heros against scum is a very simplified way to look at life.

And the rest?

The list is in the link.

The other 5 were unarmed, beat officers.

K-9

PS, It's more like 9 Guarda murderers.

OhNoYouDidn't

K-9 wrote: »

And the rest?

The list is in the link.

The other 5 were unarmed, beat officers.

So we are down to five from your hysterics of earlier?

If I were arsed I would do some research, but given the behaviour of officers like 'The Badger', I'm surprised only 6 were killed by the IRA.

There were scum on both sides. Thats not to justify the killing of cops, but there are lots of greys here.

Liam Byrne

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Gerry McCabe wasn't unarmed. Thats just one off the top of my head.

As an aside, ever asked yourself why the 'hero' cop was targetted by one member of the gang from the area?

So you're saying that it wasn't an IRA operation, and that just one criminal gang member decided himself to murder him ?

Let's assume for a second that you're right; that immediately begs the question why Sinn Fein went into jail to back him up and get their photos taken and try to get him early release then, doesn't it ?

I mean, surely they'd want to weed out the bad apples, rather than support them ?

K-9

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So we are down to five from your hysterics of earlier?

If I were arsed I would do some research, but given the behaviour of officers like 'The Badger', I'm surprised only 6 were killed by the IRA.

There were scum on both sides. Thats not to justify the killing of cops, but there are lots of greys here.

+

So you condone killing UNARMED Gardai, or see it as acceptable?

PS. It's 9 murderers, JON was a tad selective.

Dyr

K-9 wrote: »

You noticed that, 10/10 for observation.

If you were really observant you'd notice the 6 were UNARMED!

Heroes against SCUM, shooting unarmed Gardai, as in 2 cases, in the back or on the ground.

You'd want to be really observant alright because that link you posted doesnt mention if the gardai who died were armed or not. Of course the ability to observe stuff that doesnt exist is a unique attribute only found among donegal gardai as the mcbrearty tribunal found out

Det. McCabe wasn't unarmed when he was shot, unless of course random ALL CAPS change the meaning of a word to it's opposite

OhNoYouDidn't

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So you're saying that it wasn't an IRA operation, and that just one criminal gang member decided himself to murder him ?

Let's assume for a second that you're right; that immediately begs the question why Sinn Fein went into jail to back him up and get their photos taken and try to get him early release then, doesn't it ?

I mean, surely they'd want to weed out the bad apples, rather than support them ?

I'm saying he was targetted for personal reasons by an individual member of the gang.

K-9

Of course you you could say shooting an UNARMED Guard in the back is wrong, as is shooting a man point blank in the face, ala RUC Shoot to killers is wrong, but OH Know You Didn't is more fun.