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Sinn Fein these days

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    #242
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    K-9 wrote: »
    But SF campaigned for bank robbers release?

    And?


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    #243
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    And?

    Posted before you, explain why it's ok.
    Their release has nothing to do with SF and is irrelevant.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #244
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    K-9 wrote: »
    Hence the confusion and double standards. You must see it as as a logical person?

    When did I suggest that it wasn't a double standard?

    The IRA sent volunteers out on a robbery, one went radio rental and slaughtered a cop and the IRA then washed their hands of them. SF put up a token campaign but also did precious little to help.

    But none of this is relevant to you trying to claim more than once that he was unarmed.


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    #245
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Because the killing happened after the ceasefire and therefore did not fall under the GFA release scheme, or amnesty. was not officially sanctioned etc.

    When I raised that previously didn't someone say here (or maybe elsewhere) that they weren't on ceasefire at the time ?

    Anyways, based on the above, it seems fairly accepted that it was an out-and-out individual murder, regardless of whether or not the guys was a member of the IRA, the Pioneers or the local GAA club (none of whom would be responsible either if one of their members murdered someone).

    But it's unbelieveable that SF would then stand by the guy.....even FF turned their back on Ray Burke and their darling Bertie when his antics got out of hand, and they didn't murder anyone!


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    #246
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    K-9 wrote: »
    Posted before you, explain why it's ok.
    Their release has nothing to do with SF and is irrelevant.

    Why whats ok?

    I agree its irrlevant, so why did you bring it up?

    Honestly mate, have you been drinking?


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    #247
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    The IRA sent volunteers out on a robbery.....

    Huh ? Thought you said it wasn't sanctioned ? :confused: If it was sanctioned it would be a complete breach of the GFA......


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    #248
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    When I raised that previously didn't someone say here (or maybe elsewhere) that they weren't on ceasefire at the time ?

    I'm fairly sure they were, it was the legal basis to turn down their early release IIRC
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Anyways, based on the above, it seems fairly accepted that it was an out-and-out individual murder, regardless of whether or not the guys was a member of the IRA, the Pioneers or the local GAA club (none of whom would be responsible either if one of their members murdered someone).

    Agreed.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    But it's unbelieveable that SF would then stand by the guy.....even FF turned their back on Ray Burke and their darling Bertie when his antics got out of hand, and they didn't murder anyone!

    Again, I'm not a Shinner. Ask them.

    But some of the hero cop stuff is equally as cringeworthy if a fraction of the stories about what were the underlying reason for the killing are true.


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    #249
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    one went radio rental and slaughtered a cop and the IRA

    Ah grand, that is different from your post previous. The first post was a slur on Gd McCabe.

    Think you've clarified now.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #250
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Why whats ok?

    I agree its irrlevant, so why did you bring it up?

    Honestly mate, have you been drinking?

    No, you've clarified your post on Gd. McCabe. It was VERY open to interpretation.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #251
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Huh ? Thought you said it wasn't sanctioned ? :confused: If it was sanctioned it would be a complete breach of the GFA......

    Personally I believe it was, well the robbery part. But when it went wrong it suddenly wasn't. This was never claimed officially as an IRA action.


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    #252
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Why whats ok?

    I agree its irrlevant, so why did you bring it up?

    Honestly mate, have you been drinking?

    I think what K-9 meant is that it should have been irrelevant to them, considering that - from the description above - it was just a thug shooting a cop.....nothing to do with them.

    But it's far from irrelevant if we're being asked what SF are really like and whether to vote for them.

    Apologies if I'm wrong in the above, but that's what I think he meant, given that he earlier said "But SF campaigned for bank robbers release?"


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    #253
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I think what K-9 meant is that it should have been irrelevant to them, considering that - from the description above - it was just a thug shooting a cop.....nothing to do with them.

    But it's far from irrelevant if we're being asked what SF are really like and whether to vote for them.

    Apologies if I'm wrong in the above, but that's what I think he meant, given that he earlier asked "And SF campaigned for their release ?"

    Fair enough if thats what he meant.


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    #254
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Fair enough if thats what he meant.

    Grand and you've cleared up what you meant about Gd. McCabe. It was one IRA Members view.

    I'd suggest you edit a slur on Mr.McCabe.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #255
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    Personally I believe it was, well the robbery part. But when it went wrong it suddenly wasn't. This was never claimed officially as an IRA action.

    So you're saying the IRA had no problem breaking the GFA, only it went wrong and they disowned it and therefore the GFA remained intact, despite their obvious intention to break it.......:eek: So much for the trust and goodwill we showed them, eh ?

    Anyways, it's a thread about SF, not IRA, and while I believe there are far too strong links between the two, it's not a thread about the IRA....

    So the only 100% relevant - and sickening - factor is that the party has no problem campaigning for the release of a murderer and trying to squeeze it in through the GFA even though it had nothing to do with it......

    Oh - one small caveat re
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Anyways, based on the above, it seems fairly accepted that it was an out-and-out individual murder, regardless of whether or not the guys was a member of the IRA, the Pioneers or the local GAA club (none of whom would be responsible either if one of their members murdered someone).

    If the GAA club had given him - let's say - an "illegal hurley" and trained him how to use it to kill people, they would be at least partially responsible.


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    #256
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    So the only 100% relevant - and sickening - factor is that the party has no problem campaigning for the release of a murderer and trying to squeeze it in through the GFA even though it had nothing to do with it......
    Those jailed for Garda McCabes killing were not charged with murder, so you can not say that anyone campaigned for the release of murders, they charge was manslaughter,


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    #257
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    K-9 wrote: »
    Maybe I know more about what happened than you did.

    Maybe i was there when it happened :rolleyes:

    See what i did there with the help of the marvelous internet??


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    #258
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Those jailed for Garda McCabes killing were not charged with murder, so you can not say that anyone campaigned for the release of murders, they charge was manslaughter,

    They were initially going to be charged with murder, but owing to witness intimidation the charge was reduced to manslaughter to ensure that the scum involved got put away for at least some time.

    So, let's say that someone "campaigned" ;) for the charge to be lowered, and THEN "campaigned" for the "manslaughterers" to be released.

    It might have been a two-stage process, but the result was the same.
    etc.

    Now if Beverly Cooper Flynn can sue for libel for her crimes, that's an AWFUL lot of diverse and impartial media companies [I've deliberately left out the Indo] that would have been sued if there was any hope in hell that they weren't right.
    The provocation which reduces the killing from murder to manslaughter is an answer to the presumption of malice which the law raises in every case of homicide; it is therefore no answer when express malice is proved and to be available the provocation must have been reasonable and recent, for no words or slight provocation will be sufficient, and if the party has had time to cool, malice will be inferred.

    The killing of an officer by resistance to him while acting under lawful authority is murder

    Source: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm

    So there's not just one, but TWO statements in the distinction that prove the point:

    The last part in bold (completely self-explanatory) would stand on it's own in any court, but in addition the part that says that any reasonable level of provocation must have been recent - an armed scumbag recognising someone from something years ago is explicitly NOT included.


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    #259
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    They were initially going to be charged with murder, but owing to witness intimidation the charge was reduced to manslaughter to ensure that the scum involved got put away for at least some time.

    So, let's say that someone "campaigned" ;) for the charge to be lowered, and THEN "campaigned" for the "manslaughterers" to be released.

    It might have been a two-stage process, but the result was the same.
    Had a browse through your links and can not find where , So, let's say that someone "campaigned" ;) for the charge to be lowered, and THEN "campaigned" for the "manslaughterers"
    plenty of hearsay about intimation of witness, and accusations of same as it stands no one was charged with murder, "fact" this was a unfortunate accidental shooting, like a lot of others carried out during the war in the six counties, its not good to be obsessed by one particular killing as there have been killings carried out by the scumbags from the UDR/RIR who saw were fated as heroes in Belfast a few months ago, now if you want murdering scum, look no further. than our friends from the british regiments.icon12.gif


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    #260
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    plenty of hearsay about intimation of witness
    Just like "plenty of hearsay" that it wasn't an official operation ?
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    "fact" this was a unfortunate accidental shooting, like a lot of others carried out during the war in the six counties

    Stunning! You know that for a "fact", do you ? I take it you were there so ?
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    there have been killings carried out by the scumbags from the UDR/RIR, now if you want murdering scum, look no further. than our friends from the british regiments.

    I would, since I hate the murder of ANY innocent people, however there are 2 things stopping me.

    1) I'm "looking no further" than the topic of this thread; looking elsewhere would be off-topic. if you look at the thread title, there's no mention of UDR/RIR. There's also no mention of Al-Quaida, or Bush, or the local drug-dealer, so I can't start mentioning or condemning what they do either. We're discussing why SF were happy to be photographed with one particular set of murdering scum.

    Now, if they were photographed with Osama Bin Ladin, or some of the UDR/RIR guys, then by all means bring that into the conversation, because it would then be relevant.

    2) According to your statement above, there were lots of "accidental shootings" in the six counties; so if I was to concede and believe your statements that all the IRA ones were "accidental", then I would have to be 100% fair and assume that all the UDR/RIR ones were accidental, wouldn't I ?

    You're right in saying that focussing on the murder of McCabe is unhealthy, as there were many others. But as I said before that's the one I know most about, having followed the twists and turns and weasel words of SF's stance as closely as most people followed Bertie's ever-changing stories of how he got dig-outs.

    For the record - I don't believe that many of EITHER were accidental; you can surely understand that ? I mean, as an apologist, you're obviously blinkered in seeing only what the UDR/RIR did as wrong; as a neutral, I am just in a better position to apply your exact same logic to BOTH sides.

    But it is your logic. Just applied more evenly.


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    #261
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Just like "plenty of hearsay" that it wasn't an official operation ?
    Do you think they both are on a parallel,


    (as it stands no one was charged with murder, "fact" )
    Stunning! You know that for a "fact", do you ? I take it you were there so ?
    try and not misrepresent what I said,
    its re printed above

    We're discussing why SF were happy to be photographed with one particular set of murdering scum.
    Tell me if a member of the police who was jailed for "murder or manslaughter" had a photograph taken with the SDLP DUP Fianna Fine Gael or any other Irish or british political party are they also scum?
    and can you say this has not happened in the past?

    if it has theirs a hell of a lot of scum in this country.

    2) According to your statement above, there were lots of "accidental shootings" in the six counties; so if I was to concede and believe your statements that all the IRA ones were "accidental", then I would have to be 100% fair and assume that all the UDR/RIR ones were accidental, wouldn't I ?
    Yes some killings by the UDR ect were accidental, most were deliberate.


    For the record - I don't believe that many of EITHER were accidental; you can surely understand that ? I mean, as an apologist, you're obviously blinkered in seeing only what the UDR/RIR did as wrong; as a neutral, I am just in a better position to apply your exact same logic to BOTH sides.
    I seen it as is was, where I came from, --when i read a story about a killing involving the brit army in my local town it bore no similarity to what had actually taken taken place--ie I thought he was going for a weapon so I shot him/her,
    for some reason I do not perceive you as a neutral, If you were a neutral you would not constantly go on about one incident that involved the shooting of one person and be indifference to hundreds of other killings.


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    #262
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Do you think they both are on a parallel,

    No, I don't. Given that one involves official sources of law & order, and of Government, officially stating that they had to accept manslaughter reluctantly due to witness intimidation, and the other statement is from a known illegal organisation that performed robberies and killings, I'd put a LOT more weight on the "hearsay" from official, legal, respected sources.
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    (as it stands no one was charged with murder, "fact" )
    try and not misrepresent what I said,
    its re printed above

    Your statement, as written, said:
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    as it stands no one was charged with murder, "fact" this was a unfortunate accidental shooting

    The misplaced comma threw me - you had "fact" included with the text that FOLLOWED, not with what went before.

    As I said, we all know why the murder charge couldn't be followed through.


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Tell me if a member of the police who was jailed for "murder or manslaughter" had a photograph taken with the SDLP DUP Fianna Fine Gael or any other Irish or british political party are they also scum?

    Yes.
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    and can you say this has not happened in the past?

    Can you say it has ? And unlike an earlier example the photo has to come AFTER they have been convicted and jailed. Give me an example and I'll gladly question their morals and call them scum too - as I said, I treat like with like.
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Yes some killings by the UDR ect were accidental, most were deliberate.

    Do you have proof ? Or are you merely doing the reverse of what I am doing when I view it that McCabe's murder was deliberate ?
    TOMASJ wrote: »
    for some reason I do not perceive you as a neutral, If you were a neutral you would not constantly go on about one incident that involved the shooting of one person and be indifference to hundreds of other killings.

    Who the hell are you to claim I'm indifferent to ANY innocent death ? :mad: I am raising ONE example of a case that I know a hell of a lot about to question why SF were happy to be photographed with scum. THAT is the ONLY relevant point here......I've already said that George Bush is scum, that Osama Bin Ladin is scum, etc, because of THEIR actions, and if Fianna Fail campaigned for Bin Ladin's release I'd be just as critical and questioning.

    If the tribunals get their act together and Bertie ends up where I believe he should, and Brian Cowen goes for a photocall, I'll criticise him, too.

    Something tells me you're not going to believe that, because it suits you to view anyone who casts a questioning eye over excuses and weasel words as an "enemy", but have a look at some threads re the (ab)use of Shannon Airport and you'll see for yourself.

    Other than that, I rest my case. I'll even dilute it to irrefutable facts to keep you happy, and that dilution even questions SF morals:

    "SF leaders were photographed with known criminals who were jailed for a reduced State-accepted charge of manslaughter of a Garda, and those SF leaders actively campaigned for the release of those criminals; there was no justification for SF to do this, as the official IRA line was that it was an "unauthorised" operation and therefore had nothing to do with SF, IRA, or the GFA, and therefore the SF actions were completely inappropriate."

    Happy now ? It still looks bad for SF, btw.


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    #263
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Who the hell are you to claim I'm indifferent to ANY innocent death ? :mad: I am raising ONE example of a case that I know a hell of a lot about to question why SF were happy to be photographed with scum. THAT is the ONLY relevant point here......I've already said that George Bush is scum, that Osama Bin Ladin is scum, etc, because of THEIR actions, and if Fianna Fail campaigned for Bin Ladin's release I'd be just as critical and questioning.

    That is were you are going wrong.

    They are Socialist Republican Revolutionaries. They can't do wrong.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #264
    dhorgan3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭dhorgan3


    turgon wrote: »
    Sinn Fein know they will never get into government, so they can afford to have these blown out unworkable measures that nonetheless appeal to their mostly dumb working class base and their northern patriots.

    And I dont care that its not PC to say that, but its true.

    They will never get into government? Are you certain about this? They couldn't do a worse job then the current government who have in essence been screwing us over for god knows how long.

    How dare you stereotype those who vote for sinn fein. Sinn fein are for justice and equality and don't give me the IRA BS which most freestaters depend on when debating matters regarding sinn fein.


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    #265
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    dhorgan3 wrote: »
    They will never get into government? Are you certain about this? They couldn't do a worse job then the current government who have in essence been screwing us over for god knows how long.

    How dare you stereotype those who vote for sinn fein. Sinn fein are for justice and equality and don't give me the IRA BS which most freestaters depend on when debating matters regarding sinn fein.

    Freestaters? :pac:

    I'd rather our economy was run by a collection of badgers than by Sinn Féin. Any party that's dabbled in marxism is not one I want near an economy.


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    #266
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    dhorgan3 wrote: »
    Sinn fein are for justice and equality

    For whom?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #267
    dhorgan3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭dhorgan3


    anonymous_joe wrote: »
    Freestaters? :pac:

    I'd rather our economy was run by a collection of badgers than by Sinn Féin. Any party that's dabbled in marxism is not one I want near an economy.

    I am happy for you.:)


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    #268
    dhorgan3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭dhorgan3


    K-9 wrote: »
    For whom?

    I can see where you are going with this. :)


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    #269
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    dhorgan3 wrote: »
    I am happy for you.:)

    Oh, you deep thinker you.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #270
    TOMASJ
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭TOMASJ


    Originally Posted by TOMASJ viewpost.gif
    Yes some killings by the UDR ect were accidental, most were deliberate.
    Liam Byrne
    Do you have proof ? Or are you merely doing the reverse of what I am doing when I view it that McCabe's murder was deliberate ?
    Check out the UDR guys from Armagh city who shot Adrian Carroll. in broad daylight,


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    #271
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    TOMASJ wrote: »
    Check out the UDR guys from Armagh city who shot Adrian Carroll. in broad daylight,

    Was it UDR sanctioned?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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