Another Cowen failure - Partnership Talks Fail

gandalf

Well the partnership talks that have hobbled and delayed this lame duck governments response have finally collapsed. So much for bringing the unions on board.

Going to be interesting to see the next episode of this farce unravel as the cabinet try to sort things out with the public service costs. As a PAYE worker I see them attempting to straddle us with the bill again. God help them if they bring in property tax.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0203/breaking4.htm

Big_Mac

Government: Hello Mr Union, we need to save money with pay cuts for some of the public sector staff in some shape or form or we're up the swanee

Mr Union: You're getting nowt of us. You made your bed now lie in it.

End

This took how many weeks?

The government will now proceed themselves, cue all out strikes.
'This was striking in the 1980', but for just €1 at McDonalds..........'

Speaking of the 80's, I see history repeating itself

stevoman

it will be interesting to see what happens alright. as a public servant on €30k a year and with a mortgage, a child and a partner who cant find work i can honestly say i would not welcome a cut in my pay.

ixoy

stevoman wrote: »

it will be interesting to see what happens alright. as a public servant on €30k a year and with a mortgage, a child and a partner who cant find work i cant honestly say i would'nt welcome a cut in my pay.

Double negative: So you'd welome a pay cut? Thanks for doing your bit

I assume wage cuts could be done more fairly - a certain lower limit, then incremental decreases no lower than a certain threshold. Throw in some pension levies and a few job cuts for the more unproductive sections and of course couple this with some form of tax increase.

Lplated

I'm not a govt supporter, but...

in fairness, it was going to be very unlikely that the unions agreed to cuts at the level required - turkeys and christmas etc... - so i think the whole talks exercise was merely windowdressing, govt said we need €x cuts and hosted talks, now they can go ahead with the necessary cuts but still be seen to having attempted to get the unions on board.

gazzer

ixoy wrote: »

Double negative: So you'd welome a pay cut? Thanks for doing your bit

I assume wage cuts could be done more fairly - a certain lower limit, then incremental decreases no lower than a certain threshold. Throw in some pension levies and a few job cuts for the more unproductive sections and of course couple this with some form of tax increase.

On Newstalk there a while ago they said that they had seen figures from government that suggest a 7.5% cut across PS.

stevoman

Lplated wrote: »

in fairness, it was going to be very unlikely that the unions agreed to cuts at the level required - turkeys and christmas etc... - so i think the whole talks exercise was merely windowdressing, govt said we need €x cuts and hosted talks, now they can go ahead with the necessary cuts but still be seen to having attempted to get the unions on board.

but that is almost definitly going to lead to industrial action from the unions.

getcover

The Unions will now be turned into the scapegoats, which will handily take the forcus off the fact that these were not "National Recovery Talks" but simply an exercise in cutting back the services which the poorer in our society need.
Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

This country slips back to being more and more a banana republic with each passing day that Cowen/Coughlan/Lenihan/Ahern/O'Dea et al are in place.

But the message will be that "those big bad Unions will destroy the country, they are so unpatriotic".

stevoman

getcover wrote: »

Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

This country slips back to being more and more a banana republic with each passing day that Cowen/Coughlan/Lenihan/Ahern/O'Dea et al are in place.

But the message will be that "those big bad Unions will destroy the country, they are so unpatriotic".

Well said. Its a disgrace the way the banks and developers in this counrty have behaved and i think its very unfair that the public service have been targeted by the media as a focus to lash out upon.

mike65

The public sector is where the state spends its day to day cash, and we have no day to day cash - ergo cuts. Get used to it. This is your future.

Taxipete29

getcover wrote: »

The Unions will now be turned into the scapegoats, which will handily take the forcus off the fact that these were not "National Recovery Talks" but simply an exercise in cutting back the services which the poorer in our society need.
Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

This country slips back to being more and more a banana republic with each passing day that Cowen/Coughlan/Lenihan/Ahern/O'Dea et al are in place.

But the message will be that "those big bad Unions will destroy the country, they are so unpatriotic".

While I totally agree that Bankers/Developers etc should pay for the mess they have mostly created, its not going to happen under this government.
The time for recriminations is over, the country is on the edge and we need ideas, leadership and for the country as a whole to share the pain that is inevitable if we are to return to a competitive, vibrant economy. This includes public sector workers.

Most people in the private sector are facing pay freezes, wage cuts, short time and these are the ones still lucky enough to have a job. The public sector doesnt want to accept any of these measures, despite the fact that through benchmarking they benifited quite alot from the boom times. Gimme Gimme Gimme, but dont ask for anything in return.

Slow Motion

Can anyone tell me what alternative proposals the unions put to the government to achieve this 2bn? I do believe the talks were windowdressing and we have heard some of what the govt proposed, but what did the unions put forward?

Taxipete29

stevoman wrote: »

Well said. Its a disgrace the way the banks and developers in this counrty have behaved and i think its very unfair that the public service have been targeted by the media as a focus to lash out upon.

If Ireland were a private company it would be bankrupt and everybody on its payroll would be out of work. Why should only the private sector carry the burden.

ixoy

getcover wrote: »

The Unions will now be turned into the scapegoats, which will handily take the forcus off the fact that these were not "National Recovery Talks" but simply an exercise in cutting back the services which the poorer in our society need.

Do we know that there are cuts to services yet? Cuts to pay, isn't a cut to service - the people providing the service are still there. There's also more than a few there who aren't providing a service that poor or rich require.

Cowen can lament the fact that the Unions "wouldn't face up to reality" or some other guff, while the bankers/developers/FF/PD and the other greedy pigs who caused this mess slip quitely away without sanction.

I'd love to see them pay too... but even if we were to seize them all, lock them all, and take all their assets... could we make up the 2bn needed in the subsequent kangaroo court? We should rightly look to them for some blame, but also recognise that many in Ireland benefited from them (2nd homes and cheap credit) but also that we need to fix this. Fairness barely comes into it.

stevoman

Slow Motion wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what alternative proposals the unions put to the government to achieve this 2bn? I do believe the talks were windowdressing and we have heard some of what the govt proposed, but what did the unions put forward?

i honestly couldnt tell you what the unions have put forward on those meetings.

kmick

I cant understand why people in the public service are not willing to fund their pensions. They should however be allowed to opt out and allow their pensions become defined benefit like most of us if they choose not to fund it.

stevoman

Taxipete29 wrote: »

If Ireland were a private company it would be bankrupt and everybody on its payroll would be out of work. Why should only the private sector carry the burden.

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with. then every worker can take the burden and their will be plenty of cash going back to the exchequer.

Public servants go to work, do their job like everyone else.

im my opinion they are being scapegoated.

if the public servants are that well off and it is all such a sham, how come its only now that people are out looking for blood. during the celtic tiger years i havnt heard as much a peep of complaint from the private sectors. though, as a public servant during celtic tigers year i did have to listen to private sector workers brag to me about how much money they were making and how my public service wage was crap.

stevoman

kmick wrote: »

I cant understand why people in the public service are not willing to fund their pensions. They should however be allowed to opt out and allow their pensions become defined benefit like most of us if they choose not to fund it.

workers who joined the public serive after 1995 all pay contributions to their pensions.

abakan

stevoman wrote: »

during the celtic tiger years i havnt heard as much a peep of complaint from the private sectors. though, as a public servant during celtic tigers year i did have to listen to private sector workers brag to me about how much money they were making and how my public service wage was crap.

During the celtic tiger era. Whenever the public sector got a rise, the private sector followed.
Now when the private sector is being hit and hit hard and the government cant afford its day to day running cost it has to cut pay to its staff aswell

Remember you still cant lose your job, its the least the public sector can do.10% paycut isnt all that bad.

what would Micheal O Leary do!! Brian Cowen is going easy, still trying to keep everybody happy

steof1984

Will people please stop getting their information from tabloids

Public Servents who joined the service after 1995 DO pay into their pensions. Please tell me what benifits the average clerical officer made trough Bencmarking ???

If you want to attack greey people just look at Minister Noel Dempsey who keeps his position as a teacher (on say point 7 of the teachers scale) a substitute is there to replace him as he cant do his teacher duties (substitute on ponit 2 ) He pockets the difference along with his ministers pay and expenses

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/practise-what-you-preach-1625017.html

mike65

Were the union leadership clever by not agreeing? Will they be able to say when the cuts come "nothing to do with us" and be belived?

Blazer

steof1984 wrote: »

Will people please stop getting their information from tabloids

Public Servents who joined the service after 1995 DO pay into their pensions. Please tell me what benifits the average clerical officer made trough Bencmarking ???

If you want to attack greey people just look at Minister Noel Dempsey who keeps his position as a teacher (on say point 7 of the teachers scale) a substitute is there to replace him as he cant do his teacher duties (substitute on ponit 2 ) He pockets the difference along with his ministers pay and expenses

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/practise-what-you-preach-1625017.html

Agreed...all those TDs acting in this manner should immediately have this right removed.
You've made a career choice Noel..tough ****e if you've no job to go back to....no normal people have this fallback.

Mr.Micro

The current Government will blame everybody but itself. If the Unions do not cut a deal it is they that will be blamed. To my mind it is not really a time for Unions to be posturing and nobody wants to lose their pension or really take a pay cut, especially as Ireland is so expensive. (The very high prices should be tackled as well as there is a rip off culture that thrives in Ireland).

Maybe the best thing for this Government to do is admit defeat and either resign or hand the economy over to the IMF.

steof1984

You CAN loose your job in the Civil Service. Under T2016 P.M.D.S was introduced which is a yearly review of an individuals preformance. You are rated on a 1 to 5 scale . 1 being bad 5 being good

If you recieve a low score over the course of 2 reviews you can be sacked

Please be sure about what you post as you just add fuel to the flames with speculation about

"they only work from 10 till 4"
"Yeah and i hear they get a 2hour lunch break too"
"they all earn 50k+ a year"
"they get guaranteed incrments"
"they cant be sacked"

There is so much misinformation that QI could do a public sector special

gazzer

abakan wrote: »

During the celtic tiger era. Whenever the public sector got a rise, the private sector followed.
Now when the private sector is being hit and hit hard and the government cant afford its day to day running cost it has to cut pay to its staff aswell

Remember you still cant lose your job, its the least the public sector can do.10% paycut isnt all that bad.

what would Micheal O Leary do!! Brian Cowen is going easy, still trying to keep everybody happy

Why do people keep saying that you cant lose your job???? Since 1995 Civil Servents can and do get fired.

Slow Motion

mike65 wrote: »

Were the union leadership clever by not agreeing? Will they be able to say when the cuts come "nothing to do with us" and be belived?

Funnily enough that is exactly the impression I get! They are protecting their own backsides and can now get up in arms with a clear concience when the govt. come out this afternoon with their proposed cuts!

Taxipete29

stevoman wrote: »

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with. then every worker can take the burden and their will be plenty of cash going back to the exchequer.

Public servants go to work, do their job like everyone else.

im my opinion they are being scapegoated.

if the public servants are that well off and it is all such a sham, how come its only now that people are out looking for blood. during the celtic tiger years i havnt heard as much a peep of complaint from the private sectors. though, as a public servant during celtic tigers year i did have to listen to private sector workers brag to me about how much money they were making and how my public service wage was crap.

They were not being asked to take a pay-cut. They are being asked to contribute more to there own pension. Does it mean less take home pay YES.
Will they get it back at some point in the future YES

The private sector is already taking its measures. Did the 1900 Dell workers not turn up everyday and do their work and deliver for their employers??????

No one is saying most PS workers are that well off, but they have job security and pension rights most people in the private sector can only dream about. They are being asked to SHARE a burden we all carry.

If we dont get our house in order and we go bust and IMF come in what happens the public sector then??? Massive JOB LOSSES, not pay cuts.

RedPlanet

stevoman wrote: »

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with. then every worker can take the burden and their will be plenty of cash going back to the exchequer.

Not until I see legislation and enforcment of a 7.5% reduction in prices at my local shops, the esb, eircom etc.
Think we'll be seeing that?
Not a chance.

stevoman

abakan wrote: »

Remember you still cant lose your job, its the least the public sector can do.10% paycut isnt all that bad.

a civil servant who joined after 1995 has their work which is assessed annually and if its not up to scratch they can be let go like anyone lese.

gazzer

stevoman wrote: »

Im a civil servant who joined after 1995 so if my work which is assessed annually is not up to scratch i can be let go like anyone else.

Exactly. I have worked in 4 government departments and have seen people get fired from all of them.

SkepticOne

The problem is that the trough that the public sector feed out of is getting smaller. I'm sure the government being spineless would love to provide large pay rises to the public sector given the damage the public sector can do to the country if they don't get what they perceive to be their entitlements but the governments ability to cave in has been reduced substantially in recent months.