Another Cowen failure - Partnership Talks Fail

mike65

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Maybe the best thing for this Government to do is admit defeat and either resign or hand the economy over to the IMF.

Trust me you don't want the IMF in, thier only interest is repayment of loans they lend at a high interest rate. As such policies tend to gut anything that is not considered productive and to raise taxes. Then the Public Sector would really have something to complain about as would the rest of us as all manner of social services a stripped to nothing.

20goto10

Who runs this country, the unions or the government? The unions are running the show right now and its time for this government to show some balls. They've gone through their legal obligation of trying to bash out a deal with the unions which was always a pointless task. What they need to do now is get mean. They offered a fair deal and it was rejected, so now it should be back to plan A. Pay cuts across the public sector. how'd'ya like them apples.

But somehow I doubt they have the balls.

stevoman

gazzer wrote: »

Exactly. I have worked in 4 government departments and have seen people get fired from all of them.

On the other hand i have seen staff being let go.

steof1984

[Quote/] They are being asked to SHARE a burden we all carry.[Quote/]

I have no problem sharing the burden . We are in harsh times but i'd like to throwback to 2002. When most people in the private sector were being giving christmas bonus and other perks . Why wasnt that shared equally . People loved to mention how much they earned and how they got 2 rises a year of
x000's where us civil servents were poor and stupid for taking the job that gave no bonus and on average a 1k increment a year

Its these people who i have a problem with who now demand that we SHARE the burden. The media are doing a great job of reflecting the limelight on Public Sector workers when really it should be shone on the property tycoons, bank CEO's and Ministers who have a vested interest. But they dont do that as its easier to just attack the average worker

Mr.Micro

For the Government its like walking a tightrope, on one hand it has to appease the unions, make cuts across the board and at the same time not alienate the public sector workers, civil servants and others who carry out the Government machinations, without whom the whole state structure will collpase. What a dilemma.

gazzer

stevoman wrote: »

On the other hand i have seen staff being let go.

Yes I agree that I havnt seen PS staff get let go .. only fired but I just wanted to point out that a job in the PS/CS isnt a job for life like most people seem to think it is.

Mr.Micro

mike65 wrote: »

Trust me you don't want the IMF in, thier only interest is repayment of loans they lend at a high interest rate. As such policies tend to gut anything that is not considered productive and to raise taxes. Then the Public Sector would really have something to complain about as would the rest of us as all manner of social services a stripped to nothing.

Yes I agree, no IMF but does this Government have any answers if it cannot get anything right. Who is going to give it a bail out?

partyguinness

These pay talk are a charade. Who do the Unions and public sector think they are holding the Gov and the rest of the country to ransom.

The Government should do what is elected to do. Make decision on behalf of the country and the people within. Not pandering to Unions who are only interested in their owns pockets.

The Gov has a chance to earn back a lot of respect if it makes the hard decisions now...grow a pair of balls and make the necessary cuts..wage cuts or redundancies whichever.

Let the public sector strike..the Gov must look after all the country...and the publib sector wld have little or no support amongst the general public.

I cannot see how it is a "Cowan Failure"...the Unions were simply never going to back to its members and try to sell pay cuts or redundancies.

It was a charade.

steof1984

The Government cant afford for the Public Sector to go on Strike. Imagine
No welfare
No revenue
No Guards
No Hospital workers
No Sanation

Nothing

The country would fall into Chaos

Imagine the scene in the simpsons movie when Marge and the kids return to Springfield and Moe is the Emperor

Although Brian Clown would look funny with a traffic cone on his head

ixoy

steof1984 wrote: »

You CAN loose your job in the Civil Service. Under T2016 P.M.D.S was introduced which is a yearly review of an individuals preformance. You are rated on a 1 to 5 scale . 1 being bad 5 being good

If you recieve a low score over the course of 2 reviews you can be sacked

I know all that, but isn't it quite difficult to get a low score? The Sunday Times published the figures quite recently and only about .7% (or less) in some departments got a 2 or below (hard to believe given some of the wasters). A 2 I believe would still mean you got your pay increase but were ineligible for promotion. How about applying a bell curve model to this instead, where only a certain percentage can get each score? I believe it was recommended but not implemented. In other words, a stronger meritocratic element - which shouldn't bother any of the CS/PS posters here as they're all hard workers.

BTW, I never saw alll these pay increases every year and multiple bonuses in the private sector. Stupid IT industry collapsed in '02 when I went into it. Nor did I ever see bench-marking... not all in the private sector flourished!

glaston

I work in a company that had a defined benefit pension, it has been abolished. If the markets go down the toilet my pension follows however I will still have to pay the defined benefit pension of public sector workers.
I'm not happy with that.

partyguinness

I have a good few friends in the public sector particularly the Local Autorities.

They state "Yes" you can technically get sacked but you would need to come in to work with a machine gun and kill a few people and even then you would have a good chance of keeping your job.

That was their example not mine.

quad_red

steof1984 wrote: »

You CAN loose your job in the Civil Service. Under T2016 P.M.D.S was introduced which is a yearly review of an individuals preformance. You are rated on a 1 to 5 scale . 1 being bad 5 being good

If you recieve a low score over the course of 2 reviews you can be sacked

The Performance Management and Development System (PMDS) rates civil servants in five grades, with only the lowest denied an annual pay increment. It was introduced following the Sustaining Progress deal of 2003-2005.

The scheme was designed to increase productivity in the public service. Civil service unions voted against PMDS in 2006, saying it would be used to withhold pay rises gained through benchmarking.

The figures released to The Sunday Times show they had nothing to worry about.

Just 1.5% of those rated merited the second lowest ranking which meant they needed to improve their performance. These 285 civil servants still received their annual increment but are denied the opportunity to apply for promotion to a higher grade for one year.

More than 98% of those assessed were graded between three and five. Grade three means the employee has met all requirements and is eligible for promotion. Just under 40% of all civil servants were marked in this category, while 50% were graded as a four, meaning they exceeded requirements.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5015042.ece

gazzer

partyguinness wrote: »

I have a good few friends in the public sector particularly the Local Autorities.

They state "Yes" you can technically get sacked but you would need to come in to work with a machine gun and kill a few people and even then you would have a good chance of keeping your job.

That was their example not mine.

I personnally know 2 people that were let go for sending x-rated emails to a senior colleague.
I also worked in an area where 3 staff were let for for excessive sick leave.
I worked in another area where 2 staff were let go for excessive lates.

Believe me you can be sacked for a lot less than coming into work with a machine gun (though I have felt like that a few times )

gandalf

Bonuses? What bonuses. I have been in the workforce since 1991 I have gotten a total of 2 Christmas Bonuses in those times? Anything additional I got in those jobs I had to earn. I have been made redundant twice. For the last few years as things got more competitive in the field I and the company I work for exist in we have had a pay freeze.

A lot of people in the public sector need to realise that an awful lot of private sector workers are hurting and hurting bad, a lot have lost jobs and a lot more of us will. If a pay cut is a means for the public sector to minimise job cuts they should take it because an awful lot of us in the private sector (including yours truly) may not even have that luxury.

The other thing to consider is if we have to get loans from the IMF then what this government or commentators are proposing will seem very lenient indeed.

Taxipete29

steof1984 wrote: »

[Quote/] They are being asked to SHARE a burden we all carry.[Quote/]

I have no problem sharing the burden . We are in harsh times but i'd like to throwback to 2002. When most people in the private sector were being giving christmas bonus and other perks . Why wasnt that shared equally . People loved to mention how much they earned and how they got 2 rises a year of
x000's where us civil servents were poor and stupid for taking the job that gave no bonus and on average a 1k increment a year

Its these people who i have a problem with who now demand that we SHARE the burden. The media are doing a great job of reflecting the limelight on Public Sector workers when really it should be shone on the property tycoons, bank CEO's and Ministers who have a vested interest. But they dont do that as its easier to just attack the average worker

A very small % of people were getting huge pay increases every year. The rest of us got what was given in Partnership agreements.

People in the private sector did get bonuses, but now they are losing their jobs. You must take the good with the bad. The government, bankers, developers etc got us into this mess but unfortunatly as is the way of the world the ordinary person must pay for it. Why should PS workers be immune from pay cuts.

The Government has wrecked this country, but people kept voting them back in. The writing was on the wall before the last election but people thought FF were a safe pair of hands for the economy. Wrong. The bankers and developers did not spend the governments money, the PS did. The Government now have no money therefore PS must suffer like the rest of us.

Berti Vogts

steof1984 wrote: »

The Government cant afford for the Public Sector to go on Strike. Imagine
No welfare
No revenue
No Guards
No Hospital workers
No Sanation

Nothing

The country would fall into Chaos

Imagine the scene in the simpsons movie when Marge and the kids return to Springfield and Moe is the Emperor

Although Brian Clown would look funny with a traffic cone on his head

Are you suggesting that you would prefer to hold the country to ransom, threaten the solvency of the state and potentially allow the IMF to come in rather than make a contribution to your pension the way every other worker does?

ParkRunner

3% on the first €15k
6% on the next €5k
and 10% on the rest

That seems to be what is in store for public service cuts

steof1984

No i wouldnt like to hold the country to randsom. Im just saying if the government take a " well do it anyway" approach then thats whats gonna happen. I have no problem taking a cut as i know the suitation is hard for most people out there

My problem is that the people who made their money out of this mess now expect us to all take it on the chin. i think anyone under 30k should not have to take a cut in take home pay (both public and private) and that the % the rest pay should increase with their wages.

People in this country have too much of a "take it and moan in the pub anout it" approach to things. While i understand in may be harder in the private sector to tackle things thankfully in the public sector we can stand up for ourselves and we shouldnt be made feel like were greedy for doing so.

partyguinness

Possibilities wrote: »

Are you suggesting that you would prefer to hold the country to ransom, threaten the solvency of the state and potentially allow the IMF to come in rather than make a contribution to your pension the way every other worker does?

Well thats it..the public sector/unions think they can just sit back and do nothing.

The Gov needs to grow balls and make decisions they are elected to make for the good of ALL the country. Not pander to Unions trying to justify their existance.

It is often said that a sector that has a strong Union is a sure sign of inefficiency and protectionism.

Abolish Unions I say (yeah I know its constitutionaly protected)...what are the public sector scared of?

Let them go on strike I say...it could hardly make matters worse

And if it does end it strikes I hope they are not paid...plus who would support them?

gazzer

partyguinness wrote: »

Well thats it..the public sector/unions think they can just sit back and do nothing.

The Gov needs to grow balls and make decisions they are elected to make for the good of ALL the country. Not pander to Unions trying to justify their existance.

It is often said that a sector that has a strong Union is a sure sign of inefficiency and protectionism.

Abolish Unions I say (yeah I know its constitutionaly protected)...what are the public sector scared of?

Let them go on strike I say...it could hardly make matters worse

And if it does end it strikes I hope they are not paid...plus who would support them?

Whatever anybodys opinions about unions I can see a lot of Public Servents cancelling their union subs if their reps are not seen to do something about pay cuts for the lower paid

20goto10

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/financial-crisis/take-it-or-leave-it-1624934.html

Mr Cowen made it clear to unions they would face a 10pc public sector pay cut across the board if they did not accept his proposals.

Now, time to grow a pair and follow through.

Taxipete29

steof1984 wrote: »

The Government cant afford for the Public Sector to go on Strike. Imagine
No welfare
No revenue
No Guards
No Hospital workers
No Sanation

Nothing

The country would fall into Chaos

Imagine the scene in the simpsons movie when Marge and the kids return to Springfield and Moe is the Emperor

Although Brian Clown would look funny with a traffic cone on his head

It is not in their interests to strike as they would only alienate themselves more from the rest of the country. There would be no sympathy.

Your trying to convince people the 400k PS workers are greater than 1.7m private sector workers. Its time to face reality, there will be cuts, you cant stop them.

partyguinness

I have nothing against the public sector or their pay its just the arrogance and brass neck of the Union leaders that bugs the hell out of me:mad:

Het-Field

It was doomed to failure from the beginning. In good times, it was easy to offer the facade that Social Partnership was a success Unfortunatly, Cowan put all his eggs into this basket, and the gamble has failed miserably. This raises major questions about his leadership, and his ability to negotiate. Its was ok to negotiate Northern Ireland three years after the Belfast Agreement was signed, but when we needed Cowan to deliver, he has failed, and failed badly.

The future of Social Partnership is very bleak. It has failed at the most crucial of times, and each component must take its fair share of the blame.

The Government will now have to take the bull by the horns, and if they dont any short term political gain, will be washed away as the county falls deeper and deeper into the recessionary pit.

partyguinness

They keep going on about public sectors on 20k per year...what public sector job is at 20k per year?

Akrasia

Slow Motion wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what alternative proposals the unions put to the government to achieve this 2bn? I do believe the talks were windowdressing and we have heard some of what the govt proposed, but what did the unions put forward?

One of the biggest elephants in the room is that this figure of '2 Billion' is about as realistic as the estimates at the last 'budget' The reality is we are in much much deeper trouble than that, and all this effort to save 2 billion is totally undermined by the governments insistance on writing blank cheques for banks and developers that will cost us many many times more than the savings they are trying to make now.

This is literally 1 step forward and 20 steps back

Money Shot

partyguinness wrote: »

They keep going on about public sectors on 20k per year...what public sector job is at 20k per year?

I think they are an urban myth. Anyway, even if there were a large number of workers on between 20-25k in the public sector, there are definitely no workers in the public sector on minimum wage. Anyone in the public sector on the lower wages are clerical administrators who would most likely be paid a lot less in private sector, plus have no job security, pension, flexi time, increase, bonus or xmas party. The entry level wage in the Public sector for a CO is around the same that most graduates start on in the private sector.

SEPT 23 1989

i dont think people in the public sector really understand how bad things are out in the real world ,those of us working in companys see how little work is being generated at the moment,who is going to pay your wages and ridiculous pensions when there is no private sector left?:mad:

gazzer

partyguinness wrote: »

They keep going on about public sectors on 20k per year...what public sector job is at 20k per year?

Not sure. In the civil service the starting salary is just under €25,000.