Another Cowen failure - Partnership Talks Fail

gazzer

Money Shot wrote: »

I think they are an urban myth. Anyway, even if there were a large number of workers on between 20-25k in the public sector, there are definitely no workers in the public sector on minimum wage. Anyone in the public sector on the lower wages are clerical administrators who would most likely be paid a lot less in private sector, plus have no job security, pension, flexi time, increase, bonus or xmas party. The entry level wage in the Public sector for a CO is around the same that most graduates start on in the private sector.

New entrants to the Civil Service dont have job security. They can be fired.

A lot of companies have flexi time. Its not just a public service thing.

The max of the CO scale in the CS is €758 (after 18 years service). If you were to retire on this (which a large % of CS do) you would have have a pension of €379. €159 more than the non contributory pension. They of course would have to have paid into the pension for 40 years.

You only get an increase (one of the 18 year ones) IF you satisfy the PMDS criteria. I know loads of people who have not got increments for a number of years due to a low rating. On top of that after 18 years you dont get any more increments unless there is a national pay deal or if you get promoted (very very hard in certain areas)

Bonus??? What bonus?

Xmas Party??? What Xmas Party??

Nightwish

I'm a public servant. One of the low paid ones. Just to reiterate all of the above is true. I dont have job security. Like many in the private sector, I am losing my job this year. I've never gotten a bonus, nor do I get overtime, which I do regularly. This public service bashing is really irritating me. Its the largest employer in the state covering many grades. I'm in admin and I wouldnt mind a pay cut if it meant I kept my job. All of my colleagues feel the same. The nurses union is refusing a pay cut. The teachers too. Dont tar us all with the one brush. There are many lazy public servants (see Fás etc) but for every one of those, there are many more dedicated hard workers.

civil_servant

I am tired of public servants being scapegoated. Even within the service there is huge discrepancies. A clerical officer starts on €20,000 - a secretary general earns over €200,000. And you cannot put it down to increased responsibility. Whether a department has 400 staff or 2,000 staff the secretary general earns the same amount. Also all civil servants recruited after 1995 already must put 5% of their salaries to pensions on top of paying the highest rate of PRSI Class A. Civil servants hired before 1995 pay lower PRSI and don't have to contribute to their pensions.

Also the Department of Finance has a higher payscale to the rest of the civil service. That is just hypocrisy in this day and age. All civil and public servants are not treated equally.

You must remember that we are people as well. If a married couple decides that one parent stays at home to look after children because their partner has a good wage. This is now the sole income and must cover mortgages, food, utilities, clothes and any debts etc. A 8% loss of income could devastate that family.

I will admit there is waste in the civil service. Government departments have brought retired civil servants who have recieved their lump sums and currently recieving their pensions back on contract against the wishes of unions and civil servants. All of these people should be let go immediately as this would not cost the state anything as they already recieve their pensions. These jobs could be given to people who need them.

The practice of hiring consultants at exhorrbatant rates should cease. It would be cheaper to hire people and give them permanent jobs. But under the current regime specialist expertise cannot move between departments or agencies.

People earning over €100,000 across the board should have to pay 50% on earnings over €100,000.

Some may not agree with what I say, but they are only my opinions. If people see fit please raise these matters with TD's and senators at every opportunity and ask them if what I say is true. If I am wrong I will accept any corrections. If I am right the government must change these situations in the service so all Public servants start on a level playing field.

conlonbmw

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The private sector is already taking its measures. Did the 1900 Dell workers not turn up everyday and do their work and deliver for their employers??????.

Do not forget the Irish taxpayer is paying 60% of ALL Dells redundancy costs

quad_red wrote: »

The Performance Management and Development System (PMDS) rates civil servants in five grades,

I am an Ex civil servant and PMDS is rubbish, more useless form filling crap. Everyone on the same grade and job just copies each others answers because no one has a clue what it means.

Akrasia wrote: »

One of the biggest elephants in the room is that this figure of '2 Billion' is about as realistic as the estimates at the last 'budget' The reality is we are in much much deeper trouble than that, and all this effort to save 2 billion is totally undermined by the governments insistance on writing blank cheques for banks and developers that will cost us many many times more than the savings they are trying to make now.

This is literally 1 step forward and 20 steps back

Yes, the government need to start saving 20 billion a year from now.

They need to be removed from power.

irish_bob

no one has mentioend the fact that be it , doctors , consultants , nurses , teachers , all of theese profesions are paid vastly more than thier european counterparts , ireland was never in reality a richer country than the uk or the netherlands , the property boom and the revenue created the illusion that it was but now that that bubble has burst , the limits of our economy are there for all to see , wages are simply too high across the board , the public servants will of course shout that the cost of living is way higher in ireland , it was way higher , that is changing and the cost of living will have to fall sharply , forget how hard nurses ( sacred cows that they are ) work , its real politik time and the revenue that was there 3 years ago is not there anymore so people simply have to take a pay cut , the attitude of public servants reminds me of a simpsons eppirsode a few years ago when moe asked the repossesor to return his stuff , repossesor replies , hey next time pay your bills , to which moe retorts , but i dont want to

RedPlanet

I'm sick of hearing about pay cuts.
All that will do is make us all poorer.
Our employers will just be better off than they were before.
Are all landlords going to lower their rents?
Are all the shops, like Dunnes and SuperQuinn, going to lower all their prices similarly?
Is the ESB going to lower their prices?
The ESB btw, just took a pay increase, so i think we know their intentions.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/esb-pay-rise-is-a-call-to-arms-1605863.html

hblock21

stevoman wrote: »

well what i would suggest is why doesnt everybody across the country take a 7.5 pay cut or whatever figure they are coming out with.

:mad:

You see this is what is not sinking into these public sector people who think they are untouchable. MANY MANY have taken a pay cut in the private sector.

I personal have taken a 50% cut.

So don't say the private sector is hiding. Are you watching the news every night? How many jobs have been lost across the board?

Now answer me this, how many teachers, nurses, garda etc are out of their job these last few weeks? So hence their pay should be cut seen as how their job is safe.

On the other hand, don't take your pay cut, and many of ye WILL start to lose yer jobs.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

hblock21

Nightwish wrote: »

The nurses union is refusing a pay cut. The teachers too. Dont tar us all with the one brush. There are many lazy public servants (see Fás etc) but for every one of those, there are many more dedicated hard workers.

Agreed

ixoy

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm sick of hearing about pay cuts.
All that will do is make us all poorer.

Well in the case of the CS/PS it will also help reduce the national debt, which is kinda the point of this thread...

Are all landlords going to lower their rents?

Rents have dropped quite a lot actually and it's a supply/demand market so this drop may continue.

The ESB btw, just took a pay increase, so i think we know their intentions.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/esb-pay-rise-is-a-call-to-arms-1605863.html

Noted, but also noted that 1900 Dell Workers, for example, took a 100% pay decrease. Let's highlight both sides, no?

Would the CS/PS workers here prefer then that, instead of pay cuts, they lose the useless members of staff who they've readily admitted do exist? As opposed to doing nothing, what are they willing to do? And as to PMDS, would you prefer it to be more merit-based and be rated against one another rather than targets? Again, to sort out the weak members.

hblock21

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm sick of hearing about pay cuts.
All that will do is make us all poorer.
Our employers will just be better off than they were before.
Are all landlords going to lower their rents?
Are all the shops, like Dunnes and SuperQuinn, going to lower all their prices similarly?
Is the ESB going to lower their prices?
The ESB btw, just took a pay increase, so i think we know their intentions.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/editorial/esb-pay-rise-is-a-call-to-arms-1605863.html

All that will do is make us all poorer. (If you have NO job, that would make you EVEN more poorer!!!!)
Our employers will just be better off than they were before. (Presuming your in the private sector, answer is NO)
Are all landlords going to lower their rents? Yes, eventually you have to talk to them
Are all the shops, like Dunnes and SuperQuinn, going to lower all their prices similarly? YES, eventually, cost of living will go down
Is the ESB going to lower their prices? Yes

doncarlos

I was at a SIPTU meeting the other day and we were told that there was no way we would agree with pay cuts as our rate of pay is relative to our pension.

I work in a semi-state body and pay into my pension every week. I also started an additional private pension as the pension i would have got at retirement age was just over €100 a week more than the state pension. So this myth about amazing pensions is a load of crap unless your at the higher scale jobs in the civil service.

johnnyc

hblock21 wrote: »

:mad:

You see this is what is not sinking into these public sector people who think they are untouchable. MANY MANY have taken a pay cut in the private sector.

I personal have taken a 50% cut.

So don't say the private sector is hiding. Are you watching the news every night? How many jobs have been lost across the board?

Now answer me this, how many teachers, nurses, garda etc are out of their job these last few weeks? So hence their pay should be cut seen as how their job is safe.

On the other hand, don't that your pay cut, and many of ye WILL start to lose yer jobs.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Agree with you 100%....How many teachers,garda and other public servants have lost there jobs....none(only those on contracts)...how many have lost there jobs in the private sector(1000 a week/day)....The public sector in my opinion is the most inward looking, only caring about pay rises and not looking at the massive increase in the dole due to the private sector. Thank god the social partnership process has broken down, the goverment can give then all a pay cut and sort out there pensions, if they dont like it they can go on the dole

Twin-go

stevoman wrote: »

a civil servant who joined after 1995 has their work which is assessed annually and if its not up to scratch they can be let go like anyone lese.

Fair enough. But how many workers in the Public sector pre date 1995? Are these people imune from getting cut? Do they get assessed? Is this where the problem is? The public sector is bloated in many areas. We are a country of a mere 4 million people couldn't the public sector be a bit more effecent?

What we need is:

Evidence of repocussions for the overly paid bankers before bail outs go through.

Pay cuts for all Public sector workers that earn above the average industrial wage.

Tax on the mega rich e.g. international music artists that are earning multi million €s tax free.

More equitable tax systems for normal PAYE workers. 28% flat rate on all earnings above the minimum wage (approx €17500 p.a.)

Gov need to be creative here and not saddle "Joe the Plummer" with the majority of the pain.

gazzer

I am happy to take a pay cut AS LONG as our government make sure that the savings are put to good use. However I will increase my food shopping in the north and decrease my food shopping in the south. I will also buy as much on the internet as I can rather than in shops in the south.

I can see a lot more people (private and public sector) doing this to minimise the loss in wages (or loss in job)

gandalf

Twin-go wrote: »

Gov need to be creative here and not saddle "Joe the Plummer" with the majority of the pain.

Yeah they need to nail "Paddy the Plaster" and the other cronies instead

(sorry couldn't resist!)

andrewdeerpark

Good riddance to social partnership.

2 Benchmarking rises, unelected power given to trade union leaders who only represent public sector workers anyway.

We elect a government to govern not the trade unions.

Brian Cowen, address the nation, set out what you are going to do and to hell with that weak Bertie Ahern leadership style.

RedPlanet

hblock21 wrote: »

Are all the shops, like Dunnes and SuperQuinn, going to lower all their prices similarly? YES, eventually, cost of living will go down
Is the ESB going to lower their prices? Yes

Then explain how Dublin Bus just increased their fares despite that passenger numbers are down, and they're scaling back 150 buses and 350 staff?
Also, explain why the Luas just increased their fares even while their passenger numbers are down.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1230/breaking45.htm

hblock21

RedPlanet wrote: »

Then explain how Dublin Bus just increased their fares despite that passenger numbers are down, and they're scaling back 150 buses and 350 staff?
Also, explain why the Luas just increased their fares even while their passenger numbers are down.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1230/breaking45.htm

You better start using there services more than

PaddyTheNth

irish_bob wrote: »

No one has mentioned the fact that be it doctors, consultants, nurses or teachers, all of these professions are paid vastly more than their european counterparts.

Ireland was never in reality a richer country than the UK or the Netherlands - the property boom and the revenue created the illusion that it was but now that that bubble has burst the limits of our economy are there for all to see.

Wages are simply too high across the board. The public servants will of course shout that the cost of living is way higher in ireland - it was way higher but that is changing and the cost of living will have to fall sharply.

Forget how hard nurses - sacred cows that they are - work, its realpolitik time and the revenue that was there 3 years ago is not there any more so people simply have to take a pay cut.

The attitude of public servants reminds me of a simpsons episode a few years ago when moe asked the repossesor to return his stuff: repossesor replies "hey next time pay your bills," to which moe retorts "but i dont want to!"

Tidied that up for you because it reflects my own feelings exactly but trying to read it was very annoying.

Comparison of public sector versus private sector pay - apologies if this was already posted.

Also, I shook my head in disbelief reading the Trade Union reps' comments after the breakdown this morning. Not because I wasn't surprised at people earning 60-100k objecting to being asked to take a 7-10% pay cut, but that there are people earning 60-100k and being in trade unions.

Then I started thinking about the hospital consultants who make hundreds of thousands a year and are still happy to walk out.

Larkin and Connolly would be disgusted.

RedPlanet

hblock21 wrote: »

You better start using there services more than

I do, which is why i'm complaining.
It also debunks your logic.
These are 2 instances in which fewer punters equal a raise in prices.
Therefore, why should i believe that if everybody takes a pay cut, the ESB will lower their prices?

murphaph

mike65 wrote: »

Trust me you don't want the IMF in, thier only interest is repayment of loans they lend at a high interest rate. As such policies tend to gut anything that is not considered productive and to raise taxes. Then the Public Sector would really have something to complain about as would the rest of us as all manner of social services a stripped to nothing.

Aye, some of the conditions associated with IMF loans:

* Cutting social expenditures, also known as austerity,
* Focusing economic output on direct export and resource extraction,
* Devaluation of currencies,
* Trade liberalization, or lifting import and export restrictions,
* Increasing the stability of investment (by supplementing foreign direct investment with the opening of domestic stock markets),
* Balancing budgets and not overspending,
* Removing price controls and state subsidies,
* Privatization, or divestiture of all or part of state-owned enterprises,
* Enhancing the rights of foreign investors vis-a-vis national laws,
* Improving governance and fighting corruption.

The first one means bye bye to half the public service but I suppose the last one is no bad thing! On thoe whole, we NEED to sort this out internally and fast though.

gandalf

RedPlanet wrote: »

Then explain how Dublin Bus just increased their fares despite that passenger numbers are down, and they're scaling back 150 buses and 350 staff?
Also, explain why the Luas just increased their fares even while their passenger numbers are down.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1230/breaking45.htm

This article explains why the increases happened.

This is the relevant part.

The fuel tax rebate of 34.5 cent a litre was introduced over 50 years ago, and has been used as an incentive for the provision of public transport nationwide.

However, an EU directive ruled it had to be removed, and this was included in the Finance Act 2008....

hblock21

RedPlanet wrote: »

I do, which is why i'm complaining.
It also debunks your logic.
These are 2 instances in which fewer punters equal a raise in prices.
Therefore, why should i believe that if everybody takes a pay cut, the ESB will lower their prices?

If you use Energy-saving light bulbs it will save a few penny's maybe!

P.S. I can see into the future! Maybe I should have expanded on my yes, and said 'possibly' instead, its only a guess. Didn't logically think about it too much, but i like the odd flutter, and id put a few euros on it. Might lose, then again might win.

murphaph

Nightwish wrote: »

I'm a public servant. One of the low paid ones. Just to reiterate all of the above is true. I dont have job security. Like many in the private sector, I am losing my job this year. I've never gotten a bonus, nor do I get overtime, which I do regularly. This public service bashing is really irritating me. Its the largest employer in the state covering many grades. I'm in admin and I wouldnt mind a pay cut if it meant I kept my job. All of my colleagues feel the same. The nurses union is refusing a pay cut. The teachers too. Dont tar us all with the one brush. There are many lazy public servants (see Fás etc) but for every one of those, there are many more dedicated hard workers.

Sorry to hear you're losing your job. Not much solidarity being shown by the nurses and teachers unions for you or your dept. by the sounds of it. Solidarity my eye-the unions are a disgrace. They don't care about ordinary workers-they care EXCLUSIVELY about THEIR members and nobody else. This is an irresponsible position for them to take given the grave situation we are in. It would be more beneficial to reduce ALL public service gross salaries by 10% immediately and then review who is doing what and fire the dossers.

Het-Field

Apparently, Cowan is to make a 4pm announcement.

Will this endeer him to the nation as he articulates his proposed cuts, or will he shirk his responsibility by bull****ting about "tought decisions needed", and creating another level in the faux social democracy which Fianna Fail have created ?

Im not holding my breath, but I hope for the nation he does something right soon !

Money Shot

gazzer wrote: »

New entrants to the Civil Service dont have job security. They can be fired.

How bad would one have to be not to be kept on ? Maybe now they might use this mechanism rather than just making staff that they no longer can afford permanent
A lot of companies have flexi time. Its not just a public service thing.

Not very prevalent in the private sector at all, likewise term time, job share, career break and so on and so forth

The max of the CO scale in the CS is €758 (after 18 years service). If you were to retire on this (which a large % of CS do) you would have have a pension of €379. €159 more than the non contributory pension. They of course would have to have paid into the pension for 40 years.

A lot of workers in the private sector don't even have a scale. Compare this to someone who has worked in the same job, at the same level in the private sector. It rarely happens and they would have been let go at some point anyway.

You only get an increase (one of the 18 year ones) IF you satisfy the PMDS criteria. I know loads of people who have not got increments for a number of years due to a low rating. On top of that after 18 years you dont get any more increments unless there is a national pay deal or if you get promoted (very very hard in certain areas)
lots of Private sector workers are in a far, far worse boat, and were in that boat way before Lehman's collapsed, or the first subprime debt defaulted

Bonus??? What bonus?
The mythalogical bonuses that public sector workers think that all private sector workers get. Most don't - you seem to think that the majority of private sector workers are very high up in banks.

Xmas Party??? What Xmas Party??
As above

Bottom line is we need to cut our wage bill in the public sector - you do not have a god given right to your job and all it;s pay and conditions when the country can't afford it.

irish_bob

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Tidied that up for you because it reflects my own feelings exactly but trying to read it was very annoying.

Comparison of public sector versus private sector pay - apologies if this was already posted.

Also, I shook my head in disbelief reading the Trade Union reps' comments after the breakdown this morning. Not because I wasn't surprised at people earning 60-100k objecting to being asked to take a 7-10% pay cut, but that there are people earning 60-100k and being in trade unions.

Then I started thinking about the hospital consultants who make hundreds of thousands a year and are still happy to walk out.

Larkin and Connolly would be disgusted.

cheers , i need an editor , thanks for filling in

monkeytronics

I am not a member of AGS, a teacher, a nurse, a doctor etc... nor is any of my immediate family.

I have plenty of experience in both the private sector and the public sector and more than anything else it really annoys me how uneduacted and ill informed a lot of posters are (in either sector).

For example, on this thread and others of a similar nature I see time and time again sweeping statements like professions such as those mentioned above are overpaid in comparison to their counterparts in the rest of Europe. Every single poster I have seen mention such "facts" fail to look at the real full picture. The majority of workers in this country get paid more than similar positions across Europe. I don't know what the figures are but I can damn assure you that if such workers get 2% more pay here you will also find that the cost of living is 2% more here

Looking at a list of salary scales for nurses in Ireland and a list of the same in some other country is not a like for like comparison. Is it too much to ask that a debate be based on fact, full details and without the stupidity and bull**** that is contained in the vast majority of these posts

PaddyTheNth

monkeytronics wrote: »

Every single poster I have seen mention such "facts" fail to look at the real full picture. The majority of workers in this country get paid more than similar positions across Europe.

That is probably true.

But lets compare pay within Ireland.

To quote from http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml

Irish public sector pay excluding pensions exceeds comparable private sector pay by 10% for top jobs to up to 30% for other grades according to research published in the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) in its Winter 2008 Quarterly Economic Commentary.

The ESRI researchers Elish Kelly, Séamus McGuinness and Philip O'Connell, say the gap between public and private sector pay in Ireland is "far higher" than in many other countries. The average wage advantage increased to 20 per cent in 2006 from less than 10 per cent in 2003 due to several pay awards, while the pay gap in the rest of Europe rarely exceeds 10 per cent. "This differential would be difficult to justify in normal economic circumstances," they say.

The paper is available here.

ateam

Unions were not willing to take the responsibility for accepting a pay cut. Immature, selfish and irresponsible behaviour. The Labour party are a joke, they recognise the economic problems but don't want to have any cuts to any workers. What is their economic policy..run the country into bankruptcy.