Another Cowen failure - Partnership Talks Fail

mike65

Enda Kenny - windbag.

nesf

SkepticOne wrote: »

Possibly, I think it is important though to realise that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The ability to cater to pay demands is not there to anywhere near the same extent as it was. 2 billion does not convey the extent of the public finance hole.

A bit like training a child, a coddled electorate needs to be led by the nose small step by small step towards the final goal. I'd agree that 2 billion is just a very small beginning on a painful path of cutbacks and tax increases.

I'd have preferred to see a bigger move but FF don't look like they want to fight to get change through so far. This is should have been announced/done months ago though.

nesf

mike65 wrote: »

Enda Kenny - windbag.

He just isn't a good speaker. "Goodies" ffs.

Dave!

Inda still telling Cowen he's sh*te....

mike65

He's picking up a bit. Cowen said all the right things but will much of it actualy get inplimented?.

cronin

im finished being annoyed with the government. We are here now and we need ideas. granted the government havent handled it well but in fairness everytime they have tried to take the lead people go nuts and jump all over them.

we need to save money, we need to reduce the public sector, and the public sector needs to take wage reductions. if they dont the country will be ruined for the future. if everybody else is either losing jobs or taking wage reductions for the public sector not to do the same in nothing else but selfish.

Dave!

Gwan Gilmore

nesf

Gilmore on the other hand can speak. I don't agree with the man but at least he can hold a listener's interest.

bdoo

He's on fire alright!

gandalf

Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

monkeytronics

johnnyc wrote: »

Look my deepest sympathies for your friends, i rather see a good paycut of 20% instead of people losing there jobs. But the teachers/gardai/public sector are so inward looking they dont give 2 craps about the young people who are immigrating out of this country, and people who will come out of college to find no job available. Benchmarking is the biggest con job ever!!

No more inward looking than the private sector have been over the past decade or so.

therecklessone

gandalf wrote: »

Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

Public Service pension levy (including local authorities) €1.4bn

No T2016 pay increases €1bn

Various small adjustments to spending to save a couple of hundred million.

nesf

gandalf wrote: »

Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

Hard to tell, all fluff about providing funding for retraining etc for the unemployed. The major bit was a levy on public servants to pay towards their pensions. It'll be proportional to salary but no exact figures are out really. Benchmarking increases not to be awarded too, but whether it's a deferral of them or a scrapping of them is not clear.

Waiting for the small print is the best bet tbh.

Mr.Micro

Brian Cowen looks like a beaten man IMO. He trotted out the proposals and looked like he wished he was somewhere else. Basically 10% levy on public sector workers pensions despite the social partners.

mike65

gandalf wrote: »

Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

No detail yet but basicly lots of new FAS babies will be born, with emphisis on future tech and green jobs.

From RTE

The bulk of the required €2bn saving, €1.4bn, is to come from a pension related levy on all public servants, including local authority employees.

Pay increases agreed under the partnership process last year, and due for public servants in Septmber this year with a second phase in 2010, will not now be paid on the dates planned.

Cuts in Overseas Aid Payments, all professional fees, Child Allowance changes, bit and pieces stuff that is more usually found in a finance bill.

monkeytronics

therecklessone wrote: »

Public Service pension levy (including local authorities) €1.4bn

No T2016 pay increases €1bn

Various small adjustments to spending to save a couple of hundred million.

but no definitive percentages on the levy as of yet...

doncarlos

monkeytronics wrote: »

but no definitive percentages on the levy as of yet...

Yes there is i posted it already lads!!

monkeytronics

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Brian Cowen looks like a beaten man IMO. He trotted out the proposals and looked like he wished he was somewhere else. Basically 10% levy on public sector workers pensions despite the social partners.

where'd the 10% come from... as far I see he has stated there will be a levy at a gradient depedning on salary but no specifics quoted

nesf

doncarlos wrote: »

Yes there is i posted it already lads!!

You need to give a source for it before we'll take it as true.

Plus we don't know if it's been changed since it was proposed to the unions.

nesf

Cowen says an average of 7% (don't remember the exact figure). Starting at 3% at the lowest pay bracket.

Sounds like the figures doncarlos posted.

ressem

Transcript is up on the irish times site.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0203/breaking64.htm

Tom65

I missed Cowen's speech (turned on during Gilmore's), but answering the questions he does sound beaten. He's not coming out fighting. He sounds like a student reading out homework he didn't put much effort into.

One question for me is that there's an 8% reduction in professional fees. What exactly are "professional fees"?

doncarlos

nesf wrote: »

You need to give a source for it before we'll take it as true.

Fair enough!

My source is Jack O'Connor

mike65

re Tom65

Payments to Court solicitors? Actuaries? Stuff like that?

glaston

civil_servant wrote: »

Also all civil servants recruited after 1995 already must put 5% of their salaries to pensions

Well isnt that just disgraceful, having to pay money into your own pension. You must be furious.

nesf

doncarlos wrote: »

Fair enough!

My source is Jack O'Connor

Cowen's just confirmed it's exactly what was circulated to the unions.

markpb

Any word on the ministers or TDs taking a paycut?

Cuchulain

glaston wrote: »

Well isnt that just disgraceful, having to pay money into your own pension. You must be furious.

^^^Clown.
1) Not having the choice to invest as much as you want.
2) Most 40k+ earners will be paying over €100 into their pensions a week. Wonder how many people in the private sector saved their money during Celtic Tiger?

mike65

Government ministers already took 10% cut, the whole house should follow.

Akrasia

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Tidied that up for you because it reflects my own feelings exactly but trying to read it was very annoying.

Comparison of public sector versus private sector pay - apologies if this was already posted.

Also, I shook my head in disbelief reading the Trade Union reps' comments after the breakdown this morning. Not because I wasn't surprised at people earning 60-100k objecting to being asked to take a 7-10% pay cut, but that there are people earning 60-100k and being in trade unions.

Then I started thinking about the hospital consultants who make hundreds of thousands a year and are still happy to walk out.

Larkin and Connolly would be disgusted.

Thats a major problem, the union movement in Ireland is very corrupt, there is very very little solidarity.

I was involved in the Coca Cola boycott campaign a few years ago in defence of labour rights in Colombia and the biggest opponents we faced were SIPTU who refused to even allow campaigners speak to their members in Coca Cola.

Partnership has turned unions into arms of the state and the cost of their compliance was massive wages and places on highly paid quangos for the most cooperative union officials.

Het-Field

mike65 wrote: »

He's picking up a bit. Cowen said all the right things but will much of it actualy get inplimented?.

He said none of the right things when you consider the bigger picture

monkeytronics

glaston wrote: »

Well isnt that just disgraceful, having to pay money into your own pension. You must be furious.

Grow up

Taxipete29

Cuchulain wrote: »

Wonder how many people in the private sector saved their money during Celtic Tiger?

Most people bought houses during this time at extremly inflated prices and are now saddled with huge mortgages, alot of whom cant pay them due to the current economic situation. That was how they saved their money by investing it in their homes.

therecklessone

Mr Cowen later explained the pension levy rates.
He said a person earning €15,000 gross would pay a pension levy of 3%. The levy then rises gradually, to 5% on a salary of €25,000, to 6.4% on €35,000, to 7.2% on €45,000, 7.7% on €55,000, 8.1% on €65,000, 8.5% on €85,000, 8.8% on €100,000, 9.2% on €150,000, 9.4% on €200,000 and to 9.6% on €300,000.

Source: RTE

Also, as levy is on gross pay there is a saving on tax to be paid.

Twin-go

I'm 26, a teacher, earning €40,000 a year.

Sorry to hear that about your wife and mortgague etc.

But I'm not much older than you and graduated with and Honors degree in business and marketing.

At 26 i was earning €28,000 and now at 30 I am earning €34,000 in the private sector. I work 40 hours a week and more but because I am on a salary I am not intitled to overtime. My company recently let go a large number of people and who knows how long my job will last.

I don't think the major issue in the Public sector is with teaching, nursing etc. Its seems to be bloated in areas like civil service and County Councils where there can be 3 people working where one could manage.

If the government introdueced six Sigma processes in some areas they could reap the rewards of multi million € in savings.

big dan

Sorry if this has been mentioned already.

Why don't the government take a massive pay cut?? Or does this public sector pay cut mean that they are taking a hit?

monkeytronics

big dan wrote: »

Sorry if this has been mentioned already.

Why don't the government take a massive pay cut?? Or does this public sector pay cut mean that they are taking a hit?

As far as I know Senators and Deputies are entitled to a public pension therefore this would affect them

monkeytronics

Twin-go wrote: »

I'm 26, a teacher, earning €40,000 a year.

Sorry to hear that about your wife and mortgague etc.

But I'm not much older than you and graduated with and Honors degree in business and marketing.

At 26 i was earning €28,000 and now at 30 I am earning €34,000 in the private sector. I work 40 hours a week and more but because I am on a salary I am not intitled to overtime. My company recently let go a large number of people and who knows how long my job will last.

I don't think the major issue in the Public sector is with teaching, nursing etc. Its seems to be bloated in areas like civil service and County Councils where there can be 3 people working where one could manage.

If the government introdueced six Sigma processes in some areas they could reap the rewards of multi million € in savings.

I agree with you about the sigma processes but the Government requires a "quick fix" at the moment and preparing for and implementing six sigma would cost a lot in the short to medium term before you see the long term savings. This is also the reason for the pension levy compared to voluntary redundancy in the public sector.

I don't however, agree with ur statement regarding a bloated civil service, which, overall is not the case, quite the opposite actually

nesf

monkeytronics wrote: »

I don't however, agree with ur statement regarding a bloated civil service, which, overall is not the case, quite the opposite actually

Depends on how you look at it. If you look at the level we spend on public pay (as a percentage of GDP) we're about average in EU terms. The problem is if you look at how much we get in through tax, we take in substantially less than the EU average. We're spending more than we can afford to at the moment on public pay, so we either need to reduce the public pay bill, raise taxes or do both.

Those figures were for 2006 when I saw them so the picture now would probably be quite different.

quad_red

Twin-go wrote: »

I'm 26, a teacher, earning €40,000 a year.

Sorry to hear that about your wife and mortgague etc.

But I'm not much older than you and graduated with and Honors degree in business and marketing.

At 26 i was earning €28,000 and now at 30 I am earning €34,000 in the private sector. I work 40 hours a week and more but because I am on a salary I am not intitled to overtime. My company recently let go a large number of people and who knows how long my job will last.

That's almost exactly what I was going to post. I'm in a similar situation. As are most of my friends. I'm sorry to hear that yer man's wife lost her job with a kid on the way.

But to hear him feel sorry for himself cos he *only* earns 40k a year at the age of 26. And, sure, his ridiculous holidays aren't all that.

And, he lets us know, his job may not be secure. Oh my lord! Welcome to the real world!

monkeytronics

nesf wrote: »

Depends on how you look at it. If you look at the level we spend on public pay (as a percentage of GDP) we're about average in EU terms. The problem is if you look at how much we get in through tax, we take in substantially less than the EU average. We're spending more than we can afford to at the moment on public pay, so we either need to reduce the public pay bill, raise taxes or do both.

Those figures were for 2006 when I saw them so the picture now would probably be quite different.

Yeah we're struggling as a nation to pay our bills. That doesn't however, mean that the civil service or indeed any other part of professional society is bloated.

The fact that there is less money circulating the country at present doesn't mean the demand for essential services reduces or ceases to exist that's where public service is different to private service.

As I've said before, taking a doctor or a nurse for example and reducing their wages to match their counterparts in Europe... they may just decide to move to another european country because the salary would be the same but their euro would go further and because there are other benefits like a decent transport infrastructure.

I don't blame high wages entirely for our problems (public or private) but rather the process that brought us to the high wages... profiteering, scandlous service fees, house prices etc...

I mean take for example the cost of running a car in this country... when in some cases a decent alternative just doesn't exist --- e.g. a metro system. This increased cost of living has in part led to the increased cost of human resources in this country.

nesf

monkeytronics wrote: »

I don't blame high wages entirely for our problems (public or private) but rather the process that brought us to the high wages... profiteering, scandlous service fees, house prices etc...

But high public sector wages are something directly in the Government's control.

oscarBravo

General note to everyone: keep it civil.

*Honey*

The issue is not just about cuts - and I'm sorry but a pension levy is just another name for a pay cut but one only public servants are having to face. It's about income generation - if the Government really had a thought through approach to any of this, they would see that it's not just a matter of cuts but it's also getting in more morey! And in order to do that, we, the people of Ireland, have to face that fact that WE all have to pay - they should have introduced some additional tax for those at a high level of pay, say 80,000 euro or above. What about those who have two or three houses? What about the "artists" who are tax exempt - the Bono's of this world who can afford expensive accountants who can allow them to avoid paying tax and yet are still lauded in this country. Can I also point out that I have no choice but to pay into the pension in work - I cannot have a private pension, I have to pay into the public service pension. The pension is paid in two parts - one for spouses and children which is discriminatory against those unmarried or without children and yet they have no choice but to pay into this. So not only are they losing out in this way, they have to pay what really amounts to a tax on their own money!!! It's utter utter madness.

I am a public servant - I work my ass off, I get standard holidays, I've never been to a Christmas party that my bosses paid for, I've never got a bonus at Christmas or any other time, I cannot own shares in my company - I never got any of the perks that so many others have when the gravy train was running. I kept my head down, worked my ass off, paid for my own Degree to order to increase my level of education, I've forgone the perks I probably could have gotten in the private sector because I felt I was making some difference to society ... and those that creamed off the fat from the gravy train, lived the high life all the time, the bankers, the builders, the property developers and anybody that got the perks of the high times, are now the ones whining and moaning about why they should suffer alone? Why should I have to pay for other people's mistakes??? As Eamonn Gilmore said today, I didn't cause this so why am I paying for it?

If a politician comes to my door tonight, I cannot swear that he or she won't have strips torn off them. They have let us down, horribly. FF and the Green Party should be put against a wall and shot - the bankers and all those who lived off the fat for so long should be investigated and all the dodgy deals brought to light.

If, as I hear every single day lately, this is a burden we ALL have to take, then let us ALL take... not just the public servants, the poor, the babies of this country.

This government is a joke and we should be calling for general election - but then I ask, who the hell would we choose from cos they're all as bad as each other - the only difference may be Eamonn Gilmore but he's only one man... don't get me started on EDNA Kenny.

ateam

quad_red wrote: »

That's almost exactly what I was going to post. I'm in a similar situation. As are most of my friends. I'm sorry to hear that yer man's wife lost her job with a kid on the way.

But to hear him feel sorry for himself cos he *only* earns 40k a year at the age of 26. And, sure, his ridiculous holidays aren't all that.

And, he lets us know, his job may not be secure. Oh my lord! Welcome to the real world!

A reduction in pay will help with the employment of teachers in the long term. Short sighted selfishness by permanent teachers is really annoying.

monkeytronics

nesf wrote: »

But high public sector wages are something directly in the Government's control.

The Government have control over everything if they want it. Many regional authorities in China have implemented a MAXIMUM wage level in order to attract manufacturing firms. The government could have done this across both private and public sector if they so wished.

Lets also be clear about something, the government didnt just decide that the public service should get paid more for no reason. Part of it was down to kepping up with cost of living but a major part was simply to attract talent. In order to acquire good employees with the quality skills and knowledge you must offer a good employment package, as has been done for yrs and yrs in the private sector.

To me that makes sense, over the past number of yrs people could earn much more in the private sector in general than they could in the PS. Lets be fair about it, most people did very well over the past decade and some did extremely well. Yep, there are some who didn't benefit much from the celtic tiger, as unemployment remained and minimum pay workeres existed but for the most part people did well.

The PS was just not the place to be. Now that has changed? and there is a sudden attack on public sector pay and it being inflated etc... why? becoz the private sector lsot control. You could implement a salary cap of 40,000euro for an individual worker in the PS, but the quality of human resource and the service would suffer as a result. Educated and skilled private sector workers demanded suitable remuneration for their skills, public sector workers shouldn't be different. Sure you could just replace the PS with penguins but you'll get the kind of micky mouse service that fits with that.

And yes some services are micky mouse, primarily due to poor recruitment policies and mismanagement of talent pools. But the public sector provides essential services, most not offered by the private sector and to perform adequately, skilled staff are required. You won't get them with brown bread.

nesf

monkeytronics wrote: »

The Government have control over everything if they want it.

No, they are restrained by law quite tightly in what they can control. The Chinese government isn't very comparable to ours.

monkeytronics

nesf wrote: »

No, they are restrained by law quite tightly in what they can control. The Chinese government isn't very comparable to ours.

not in terms of fiscal policy. The Gov could have enforced an income cap across the entire work force to keep wage costs lower than they have been. Would it have been easy? no, but do do able none the less.
What matter I blame the public sector, its all there fault.

I wasn't comparing the chinese government to ours, more so showing an example of the measures taken elsewhere to manage the national revenues and expenditures.

nesf

monkeytronics wrote: »

not in terms of fiscal policy. The Gov could have enforced an income cap across the entire work force to keep wage costs lower than they have been. Would it have been easy? no, but do do able none the less.

In fairness, a Government can adjust public pay far far easier than public pay through income caps (I'm not even sure if there wouldn't be riots if they tried to introduce something like this).

Us middle class people already hand over a large chunk of our pay cheque to the Government, we wouldn't take them limiting our wages very well.

mad m

It was reported a while ago that some local councils are owed more than 15 million in back rent...Why isn't this being chased up.....If you were in a private dwelling you'd be on the streets..

I know it will be hard on most public sector workers but maybe it might be better than the dole.