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Another Cowen failure - Partnership Talks Fail

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    #92
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    johnnyc wrote: »
    ...How many teachers,garda and other public servants have lost there jobs....none(only those on contracts)...

    Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. I know teachers whose jobs will go at the end of the school year. Some of them have contracts that are categorised as permanent, while others are on temporary contracts (but in jobs where, but for the current crisis, they would have had a reasonable hope of continuous employment).


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    #93
    doncarlos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    Here are the deductions that the government wanted.


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    #94
    bdoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 574 ✭✭✭bdoo


    Hi,

    It's obvious that the country is in serious bother but I get so annoyed when I turn on the radio or television and hear Turlough O'Sullivan et al. bashing the public service.

    2bn needs to be found somewhere, that's obvious but suggesting that taking 10% from public sector pay is ridiculous.

    I'm 26, a teacher, earning €40,000 a year. I'm married for two years, our first child is due in a week and my wife lost her job before christmas. We can't get a mortgage and are living week to week like everybody else. Although I've been teaching for 5 years i'm not permanent and dont know if i'll have a job in september.

    I agree that savings need to be made but I think that it's unfair to target teachers and nurses. Sure we have the holidays etc but there has to be more to an argument than that.

    I made a choice when i did my leaving to train as a teacher, others in my class went into their family business or a trade or whatever. Independent decisions. When I started teaching many of my friends were driving brand new cars, building houses and so on. Fair play to them. Now times are different and i'm expected to suffer again when times are tough, i still have an old car and still dont have a house.

    I dont have the answer to these problems but what I do know is that there is expense in the public sector that is crazy but it's not necessarily the frontline staff. County Councillors, TD's, executives, planners and engineers are paid crazy money. How many advisors were paid to come up with the plan of talking to the social partners?

    Efficiency should be demanded first. All I ask is that ye stop branding all teachers as being the same. Maybe you had a lazy teacher who you didnt like or whatever but times have changed, our schools are of high quality as are our teachers.

    I know many people in the private sector are losing jobs, i see it everyday with kids coming in to me in school and I know its not easy but whatever is done has to be fair and, in my opinion a 10% paycuts for the public sector is not fair.


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    #95
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    bdoo wrote: »
    2bn needs to be found somewhere, that's obvious but suggesting that taking 10% from public sector pay is ridiculous.
    Far more than 2 billion is needed. The 2 billion is merely to break the ice.


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    #96
    monkeytronics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭monkeytronics


    PaddyTheNth wrote: »
    That is probably true.

    But lets compare pay within Ireland.

    To quote from http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015576.shtml

    The paper is available here.


    I briefly read through it but don;t have the time to read in full at the moment.

    As a brief general point... as far as I can see it compares overall public sector pay compared to specified. There is a large skew at the top of public sector positions which don't make the overall proportion of wage distribution real in terms of the analysis performed.


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    #97
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    bdoo wrote: »
    I'm 26, a teacher, earning €40,000 a year. I'm married for two years, our first child is due in a week and my wife lost her job before christmas. We can't get a mortgage and are living week to week like everybody else. Although I've been teaching for 5 years i'm not permanent and dont know if i'll have a job in september.
    Welcome to the club of not knowing if you'll have a job. If David Begg had his way, you'd be out of a job a lot faster.


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    #98
    bdoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 574 ✭✭✭bdoo


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    Far more than 2 billion is needed. The 2 billion is merely to break the ice.

    You're splitting hairs


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    #99
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    bdoo wrote: »
    You're splitting hairs
    Possibly, I think it is important though to realise that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The ability to cater to pay demands is not there to anywhere near the same extent as it was. 2 billion does not convey the extent of the public finance hole.


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    #100
    PaddyTheNth
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭PaddyTheNth


    monkeytronics wrote: »
    There is a large skew at the top of public sector positions which don't make the overall proportion of wage distribution real in terms of the analysis performed.
    I'm not sure that I'm with you on that one. To quote directly from the report:
    Furthermore, we found that by 2006 senior public service workers earned approximately 10 per cent more than their private sector counterparts, while those in lower-level grades earned between 24 and 32 per cent more.
    That would seem to say that they are comparing like with like.

    If you look at Table A1 on page 25 it gives you an idea of the sorts of jobs which comprised the data.


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    #101
    johnnyc
    Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭johnnyc


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant. I know teachers whose jobs will go at the end of the school year. Some of them have contracts that are categorised as permanent, while others are on temporary contracts (but in jobs where, but for the current crisis, they would have had a reasonable hope of continuous employment).

    Look my deepest sympathies for your friends, i rather see a good paycut of 20% instead of people losing there jobs. But the teachers/gardai/public sector are so inward looking they dont give 2 craps about the young people who are immigrating out of this country, and people who will come out of college to find no job available. Benchmarking is the biggest con job ever!!


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    #102
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Enda Kenny - windbag.


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    #103
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    Possibly, I think it is important though to realise that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The ability to cater to pay demands is not there to anywhere near the same extent as it was. 2 billion does not convey the extent of the public finance hole.

    A bit like training a child, a coddled electorate needs to be led by the nose small step by small step towards the final goal. I'd agree that 2 billion is just a very small beginning on a painful path of cutbacks and tax increases.

    I'd have preferred to see a bigger move but FF don't look like they want to fight to get change through so far. This is should have been announced/done months ago though.


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    #104
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    mike65 wrote: »
    Enda Kenny - windbag.

    He just isn't a good speaker. "Goodies" ffs.


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    #105
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Inda still telling Cowen he's sh*te....


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    #106
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    He's picking up a bit. Cowen said all the right things but will much of it actualy get inplimented?.


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    #107
    cronin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7 ✭cronin


    im finished being annoyed with the government. We are here now and we need ideas. granted the government havent handled it well but in fairness everytime they have tried to take the lead people go nuts and jump all over them.

    we need to save money, we need to reduce the public sector, and the public sector needs to take wage reductions. if they dont the country will be ruined for the future. if everybody else is either losing jobs or taking wage reductions for the public sector not to do the same in nothing else but selfish.


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    #108
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Gwan Gilmore


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    #109
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Gilmore on the other hand can speak. I don't agree with the man but at least he can hold a listener's interest.


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    #110
    bdoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 574 ✭✭✭bdoo


    He's on fire alright!


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    #111
    gandalf
    Registered Users Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?


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    #112
    monkeytronics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭monkeytronics


    johnnyc wrote: »
    Look my deepest sympathies for your friends, i rather see a good paycut of 20% instead of people losing there jobs. But the teachers/gardai/public sector are so inward looking they dont give 2 craps about the young people who are immigrating out of this country, and people who will come out of college to find no job available. Benchmarking is the biggest con job ever!!


    No more inward looking than the private sector have been over the past decade or so.


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    #113
    therecklessone
    Registered Users Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    gandalf wrote: »
    Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

    Public Service pension levy (including local authorities) €1.4bn

    No T2016 pay increases €1bn

    Various small adjustments to spending to save a couple of hundred million.


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    #114
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    gandalf wrote: »
    Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

    Hard to tell, all fluff about providing funding for retraining etc for the unemployed. The major bit was a levy on public servants to pay towards their pensions. It'll be proportional to salary but no exact figures are out really. Benchmarking increases not to be awarded too, but whether it's a deferral of them or a scrapping of them is not clear.

    Waiting for the small print is the best bet tbh.


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    #115
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Brian Cowen looks like a beaten man IMO. He trotted out the proposals and looked like he wished he was somewhere else. Basically 10% levy on public sector workers pensions despite the social partners.


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    #116
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    gandalf wrote: »
    Lads for those of us still in work can you give an idea/summary of what the proposals are?

    No detail yet but basicly lots of new FAS babies will be born, with emphisis on future tech and green jobs.

    From RTE
    The bulk of the required €2bn saving, €1.4bn, is to come from a pension related levy on all public servants, including local authority employees.

    Pay increases agreed under the partnership process last year, and due for public servants in Septmber this year with a second phase in 2010, will not now be paid on the dates planned.

    Cuts in Overseas Aid Payments, all professional fees, Child Allowance changes, bit and pieces stuff that is more usually found in a finance bill.


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    #117
    monkeytronics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭monkeytronics


    therecklessone wrote: »
    Public Service pension levy (including local authorities) €1.4bn

    No T2016 pay increases €1bn

    Various small adjustments to spending to save a couple of hundred million.

    but no definitive percentages on the levy as of yet...


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    #118
    doncarlos
    Registered Users Posts: 2,838 ✭✭✭doncarlos


    monkeytronics wrote: »
    but no definitive percentages on the levy as of yet...

    Yes there is i posted it already lads!!


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    #119
    monkeytronics
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭monkeytronics


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Brian Cowen looks like a beaten man IMO. He trotted out the proposals and looked like he wished he was somewhere else. Basically 10% levy on public sector workers pensions despite the social partners.

    where'd the 10% come from... as far I see he has stated there will be a levy at a gradient depedning on salary but no specifics quoted


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    #120
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    doncarlos wrote: »
    Yes there is i posted it already lads!!

    You need to give a source for it before we'll take it as true. ;)

    Plus we don't know if it's been changed since it was proposed to the unions.


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    #121
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Cowen says an average of 7% (don't remember the exact figure). Starting at 3% at the lowest pay bracket.

    Sounds like the figures doncarlos posted.


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