Post Cowen Plan debate:

nesf

jimmysull wrote: »

Prolonging the agony....time for action

I agree but it's not entirely clear what that action should be.

foxy06

Can someone tell me if this is a levy on all wages earned or just on money paid into your pension?

Fishyfreak

It's a levy on Gross Pay. It's a joke that penalises the ordinary man. Public Sector workers already contribute around 5% to the pension, now he's slapping 7% on top of this.

He's quite happy to pump money into the banks willy nilly.

There will be strikes believe me.

foxy06

Great! I've lost my job and my husband is down 70 quid a week. Would both be better off screwing the system in this poxy country.

nesf

Fishyfreak wrote: »

It's a levy on Gross Pay. It's a joke that penalises the ordinary man. Public Sector workers already contribute around 5% to the pension, now he's slapping 7% on top of this.

He's quite happy to pump money into the banks willy nilly.

There will be strikes believe me.

RTE were making it sound like that'll replace the old 5% contribution. Lack of details is a bitch isn't it?

krust

foxy06 wrote: »

Great! I've lost my job and my husband is down 70 quid a week. Would both be better off screwing the system in this poxy country.

foxy06

They have not explained this at all. I am down about 1400 a month in my house and we have 2 children. If we both went on the dole we would have more money. WHY is this country such a joke????

BroomBurner

nesf wrote: »

RTE were making it sound like that'll replace the old 5% contribution. Lack of details is a bitch isn't it?

Yeah, RTE keep saying that "Public Servants are now going to have to pay for their pensions" as if we don't already!!

Berti Vogts

Fishyfreak wrote: »

It's a levy on Gross Pay. It's a joke that penalises the ordinary man. Public Sector workers already contribute around 5% to the pension, now he's slapping 7% on top of this.

He's quite happy to pump money into the banks willy nilly.

There will be strikes believe me.

Well it's better than losing your job, isn't it?

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

Yeah, RTE keep saying that "Public Servants are now going to have to pay for their pensions" as if we don't already!!

If you calculated how much it would cost to get that pension in the private sector you don't pay anything close to what it should cost. No offence but you really don't pay for them up to now and this new levy doesn't really cover the cost either.

How about we don't apply the old and new levy and you can have private pensions instead? If I was you I really wouldn't take this option. Take a glance at what's happened to private pensions in the last two years if you want to see what it's like for the rest of the country.


I'll put it this way, if I was offered a deal where by paying 10-15% of my salary I'd get a guaranteed job and a guaranteed pension like the public sector one, I'd jump at the chance.

BroomBurner

Possibilities wrote: »

Well it's better than losing your job, isn't it?

That's a very simplistic attitude to take.

There are surely better ways to raise money than to tax a pension? It smacks of a government making decisions based on members of the private sector whispering in their ear.

No one in the public sector is ignorant to the bad times we're currently in, so let's leave off the simple slurs.

mike65

Wonder what the rating agencies will make of this programme of cuts/tweaks.

bk

Fishyfreak wrote: »

It's a levy on Gross Pay. It's a joke that penalises the ordinary man. Public Sector workers already contribute around 5% to the pension, now he's slapping 7% on top of this.

The thing is to get an equivalent pension in the public sector, you would need to pay about 20 to 25% of your salary, so you are still doing well.

Fishyfreak wrote: »

There will be strikes believe me.

The problem is if there are strikes, it will only lead to the necessity for even more cuts on the public sector.

Here is the thing, we currently have a AAA rating from the credit rating agencies. If the government are seen to be bringing the current spending levels down, then we will keep this rating and the cost of the government borrowing money will decrease.

However if there are strikes, we will quickly lose the AAA rating, which will mean a big increase in the cost of borrowing money, which will just mean even more cutbacks are needed of public expenditure.

It isn't in anyone interest, specially public sector workers interest to go on strike.

nesf

mike65 wrote: »

Wonder what the rating agencies will make of this programme of cuts/tweaks.

Any guaranteed cuts in expenditure that continue year on year will help our credit rating. We'll need to do more to get an AAA rating though.

BroomBurner

nesf wrote: »

If you calculated how much it would cost to get that pension in the private sector you don't pay anything close to what it should cost. No offence but you really don't pay for them up to now and this new levy doesn't really cover the cost either.

How about we don't apply the old and new levy and you can have private pensions instead? If I was you I really wouldn't take this option. Take a glance at what's happened to private pensions in the last two years if you want to see what it's like for the rest of the country.

I'm not disputing that it's a good pension scheme, but it is also well paid for by the public sector. As stated there on RTE, there is no "black hole" in the HSE pension fund, everyone gets out what they pay in. I am currently paying for someone that has already retired, that's fair enough. In the future (hopefully), someone will be paying for me to be retired. That's how it works.

For private pension, however, it works differently, you save and invest for yourself, so take the risk yourself.

There's really no comparing the two.

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

I'm not disputing that it's a good pension scheme, but it is also well paid for by the public sector. As stated there on RTE, there is no "black hole" in the HSE pension fund, everyone gets out what they pay in. I am currently paying for someone that has already retired, that's fair enough. In the future (hopefully), someone will be paying for me to be retired. That's how it works.

For private pension, however, it works differently, you save and invest for yourself, so take the risk yourself.

There's really no comparing the two.

The old levy was only 5%, that's tiny! The thing is, why do public servants get pensions that are unavailable to the rest of the country? Bear in mind that public pensions come from current spending so any short fall is paid by taxes paid by everybody, not just public servants.

donmaga1

Ireland should be ran like a buisness. Ireland has some great buissness people. Get them in to advise the government.

If in the budget had a 1% extra on income tax I dont think ther would be any one giving out. Harsh yes but the other governments around the world would see Ireland doing something to prop up the state.

If for the month of December the government took the duty off booze not so meny people would have gone up north and done there shopping there two.

Brian Lenihan is Minister for Finance, and he is a Barrister. What does a Barrister know about finance?

Cowen show have appointed an accountant as Minister for Finance.

bk

BroomBurner wrote: »

There are surely better ways to raise money than to tax a pension? It smacks of a government making decisions based on members of the private sector whispering in their ear.

Yes, a real pay cut, rather then this fake pay cut would have saved us a lot more money.

Or alternatively firing 10% of the public sector would have been another option.

Which would you prefer?

mike65 wrote:

Wonder what the rating agencies will make of this programme of cuts/tweaks.

Positively, as long as the cuts can be pushed through without major strikes or disruption.

bdoo

Bring back McCreevy!!

BroomBurner

nesf wrote: »

The present levy is only 5%, that's tiny!

It's actually not. It's 5% minimum, which increases as your wage increases. I'm currently paying the minimum as I'm not long in the door. However, if my wage goes up, so does my %. And before you say that as my wage goes up, obviously 5% of it is going to be more, the actual percentage will go up, which is out of my hands.

As I said, I'm not disputing that it's a good deal, but there is no comparison to a private sector pension, there just isn't. Unless you work in a place big enough to have a similar scheme. It's also about where the pension money is invested. Private pensions tend to err towards the more risky in order to maximise return, whereas with public, they have to be a lot more careful.

Begrudery is a dangerous thing.

Anyway, back to the main topic. The dole should have been decreased aswell. If Ireland wants to stay competitive, we should have a competitive workforce and one that doesn't find it easier to be on the dole than to work.

Berti Vogts

BroomBurner wrote: »

That's a very simplistic attitude to take.

There are surely better ways to raise money than to tax a pension? It smacks of a government making decisions based on members of the private sector whispering in their ear.

No one in the public sector is ignorant to the bad times we're currently in, so let's leave off the simple slurs.

Well, simple or otherwise, it is the truth. I and many of my friends have lost our jobs. I would love to be in the position where I could take a 10% pay cut or be forced to contribute to a pension. Count your blessings that you have a secure job.

BroomBurner

bk wrote: »

Yes, a real pay cut, rather then this fake pay cut would have saved us a lot more money.

Or alternatively firing 10% of the public sector would have been another option.

Which would you prefer?



Positively, as long as the cuts can be pushed through without major strikes or disruption.

If you've ever spent the time reading previous similar threads, you would find that I agree with reducing the wage bill by ridding the PS of dead weight.

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

It's actually not. It's 5% minimum, which increases as your wage increases. I'm currently paying the minimum as I'm not long in the door. However, if my wage goes up, so does my %. And before you say that as my wage goes up, obviously 5% of it is going to be more, the actual percentage will go up, which is out of my hands.

It's tiny for what you get in exchange. Which is what I meant. It is a very nice deal.

BroomBurner wrote: »

Begrudery is a dangerous thing.

Ah yes, the fall back position. Seriously, explain to me why public servants should get such a good pension. I don't begrudge you it, I've a lot of friends and family working in the public service* in general so this levy will hurt people I care about but I still think they're getting a good deal in exchange for what they'll pay.

*To clarify none of them are admin people, they're all Gardaí, Nurses, Teachers, Prison Officers and similar. So the front line staff you hear the unions go on so much about.

bk

donmaga1 wrote: »

If in the budget had a 1% extra on income tax I dont think ther would be any one giving out. Harsh yes but the other governments around the world would see Ireland doing something to prop up the state.

The problem is this would only bring in about 100 to 200 million euro extra!!

donmaga1

bk wrote: »

The problem is this would only bring in about 100 to 200 million euro extra!!

It is a start. It is better than having the retired protesting on the streets. There is little confidiance in the presedent leaders. But there is no one better on the FF side

BroomBurner

nesf wrote: »

It's tiny for what you get in exchange. Which is what I meant. It is a very nice deal.



Ah yes, the fall back position. Seriously, explain to me why public servants should get such a good pension. I don't begrudge you it, I've a lot of friends and family working in the public service in general so this levy will hurt people I care about but I still think they're getting a good deal in exchange for what they'll pay.

Do you understand how a public sector pension is worked out, and what people are entitled to?

I don't hold any grudge against people in the private sector that retired and cashed in their pensions while the boom was high and they made a packet, it works both ways.

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

Do you understand how a public sector pension is worked out, and what people are entitled to?

Are you saying you guys get a bad deal?

DublinWriter

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like that they're a passenger on a bus hurtling towards a cliff with no driver at the wheel?

I certainly felt that way after watching Cowen today.

Obviously the Social Partners are only in it for the good times, so let's scrap that particular model and close the doors of influence to the likes of union leader David Begg and his six-figure salary.

Cowen offered nothing in the way of curbing the run-away spending now rife in the public sector.

WTF was Anglo bailed out? It's not even a clearing bank FFS. The money would have been better spent nationalising Waterford Glass.

The fact that Waterford Glass are going to the wall is a very worrying omen to me because they were always a thriving concern even in our most dire financial straits in the 70's and 80's.

I joked with friends last year that at least things won't get as bad as they were in the 1980's. I now have to eat my words and say that from all I've seen so far, things will be worse than they were in the 1980's.

gnxx

It is strange that we have not seen the normal outcry and protest from the social partners.

I suspect that the various parties made an unofficial agreement last night on the main proposals.

This puts the social partners is a smart strategic position -- behind the scenes they are supporting the government but appear to have fought the hard fight for their members and held their position.

BroomBurner

nesf wrote: »

Are you saying you guys get a bad deal?

Try reading my posts before you come out with questions like that.