Post Cowen Plan debate:

BroomBurner

gnxx wrote: »

It is strange that we have not seen the normal outcry and protest from the social partners.

I suspect that the various parties made an unofficial agreement last night on the main proposals.

This puts the social partners is a smart strategic position -- behind the scenes they are supporting the government but appear to have fought the hard fight for their members and held their position.

That's politics for ya, were you expecting anything different?

murphaph

Defined benefit schemes should be abolished immediately (and should have gone years ago). All new PS workers should enter a defined contribution scheme like the rest of the real world.

DF-Artane

As a public servant I expected the cut. Simply put, people had a case to scoff the benchmarking process in the past however that case is significantly stronger if the public / civil service don't share the pain having enjoyed the gain.

The last budget took 3k out of my joint income. The savings outlined today can only be made if they are additional to the current payments hence 5% + new cuts. I estimate the increases will take an additional 14k+ from my families joint income and I am not in senior management.

Am I happy = no
Am I surprised = no
Am I going on strike = no
Have I a good job (and one I do exceptionally well) = yes
Do I think this measure is right = yes

Just heard on 7 p.m. news on Radio 1 that the pension payment should take affect by early March.

I am not living in an alternate universe and nobody wants to see their take home cut (10% is alot better than 100%).

There are only two ways to address the issue of expenditure exceeding your income 1. Reduce the cost of what you are doing or stop doing X% of your current activity. If the State does not cut its expenditure through reduced costs then it will have to do it with reduced numbers of staff.

The public / civil service cuts mean the same amount of staff doing hopefully at least the same amount of work. Hence the State wins on two fronts. The level of services currently provided in hospitals, schools and local authorities etc are maintained whilst costs are reduced.

Personally I prefer to take a hit than loose a colleague. God knows that we don't need any more unemployed. And before anyone says that is unlikely I remind people of the change introduced in April 1996? wherein civil if not public employees where required to pay a full PRSI stamp arguably so that if their employment was terminated they could claim unemployment benefit. Foresight is only useful if you act when the time comes.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Defined benefit schemes should be abolished immediately (and should have gone years ago). All new PS workers should enter a defined contribution scheme like the rest of the real world.

I take it then, you're proposing to cap the contributory social welfare pension based on PRSI contributions?

Where should the contributions be invested?

In Asia, having lots of children is considered to be the best pension plan.

bohsfc

People are mentioning strikes. Maybe that is not the answer but between myself and my wife, who is also a public servant, we are down €250 a fortnight. This is totally unacceptable to me as it is also in addition to the recent 1% levy.

I do feel very strongly that a march should be organised as it worked for the pensioners and all public sector workers should join in.

Why should we face the burden of bad management by the government?
No matter how much money people had in their pockets over the boom we all saved for a rainy day. It seems the government failed to do this and now the public sector workers has to pay the price.
The bank top brass made millions over the past number of years but thier bad management caused difficulties and now they need a helping hand and who has to foot the bill, me and all public servants.

I feel I would be better off to pack it all in and sell my home, offer nothing to society and scrounge off the state and have my rent and everything else paid for.

To say that I am annoyed is an understatement but I hope some group will organise a protest. If not I will look forward to my half day every Friday as that will be the 7.7% that I will be down in my salary so it will be the amount of time I will take off.

nesf

BroomBurner wrote: »

Try reading my posts before you come out with questions like that.

Edit:

Actually screw it, I'm tired of debating about this. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

TJJP

nesf wrote: »

I'll put it this way, if I was offered a deal where by paying 10-15% of my salary I'd get a guaranteed job and a guaranteed pension like the public sector one, I'd jump at the chance.

http://www.publicjobs.ie/

Fás are looking for a director general....

NewDubliner

bk wrote: »

Yes, a real pay cut, rather then this fake pay cut would have saved us a lot more money.

The pension levy is more strategic. If there was a pay cut, there would always be pressure to restore it at the first sign of any improvement in the economy. It would affect existing PS pensioners who have plenty of time to do a bit of protesting and unlike serving staff, cannot be dismissed or locked out.

A pension levy will probably only go up in the future.

turgon

Ok so Cowen talks about being patriotic. Well I think that your level of patriotism should be adjusted by your level of income. A few questions:

Why does everyone pay a 1% levy on tax? Surely it should be based on what you earn. And dont give that crap about minimum wage getting off it, if anything that just highlights how unfair it it.

Why do the high earners in the public sector get golden handshakes instead of golden kicks up the arse? Like rody molloy getting 105k, come off it. The brass gets paid too much, and they are not putting in as much relatively as poorer people are.

Why does every young kid under 5 get a grand?? WHY??? If im a millionaire, will I need a grand for my well spent child?? NO. Yet if the daddys a junkie and im pushing three jobs I still get the same. So unfair.

Why is there so much waste throughout the government??? Like what was it 100k for the ministers to go see Micheal Dell? Theres such a culture of waster in this country its sick.

If the unions dont want to foregoe their wage increases, why arent they told to piss off???

nesf

TJJP wrote: »

http://www.publicjobs.ie/

Fás are looking for a director general....

Woot. Can I put you down as a reference?

bk

bohsfc wrote: »

People are mentioning strikes. Maybe that is not the answer but between myself and my wife, who is also a public servant, we are down €250 a fortnight. This is totally unacceptable to me as it is also in addition to the recent 1% levy.

Have you got a mortgage, how much has that reduced by since 6 months ago? *
How about the reduction in petrol costs?
Being shopping up in Northern Ireland? What about all the sales going on?
Buying a new car, lots of bargains out there?

The reality is that you should be roughly breaking even with 6 months ago.

* As an example a €250,000 mortgage over 25 years should be about €250 per month cheaper today then it was 6 months ago.

bohsfc

bk wrote: »

Have you got a mortgage, how much has that reduced by since 6 months ago? *
How about the reduction in petrol costs?
Being shopping up in Northern Ireland? What about all the sales going on?
Buying a new car, lots of bargains out there?

The reality is that you should be roughly breaking even with 6 months ago.

* As an example a €250,000 mortgage over 25 years should be about €250 per month cheaper today then it was 6 months ago.

Sorry mate but my mortgage has not decreased as I am in a fixed rate and if changed to variable I would have to buy out of the fixed rate and only make a saving of €50 PM.

Reduced petrol prices have helped everyone, not just public sector workers.
Up North? Bloody sure along with 1000's of others and if the govenment ran things right and reduced VAT we would not need to save money by going up North. (and thats my point. Up to SAVE money)

New car. Not a hope on Public service wages and huge mortgages and creche fees.

bk

bohsfc wrote: »

Sorry mate but my mortgage has not decreased as I am in a fixed rate.

Have you looked into breaking your fixed rate mortgage?

patchquinn

bohsfc wrote: »

.....Why should we face the burden of bad management by the government?....
....No matter how much money people had in their pockets over the boom we all saved for a rainy day.......
.....who has to foot the bill, me and all public servants......
....I feel I would be better off to pack it all in and sell my home, offer nothing to society and scrounge off the state and have my rent and everything else paid for........
.......but I hope some group will organise a protest.....
.....If not I will look forward to my half day every Friday as that will be the 7.7% that I will be down in my salary so it will be the amount of time I will take off.

bohfsc, you are the reason many people in the private sector think the public sector are spoilt and lazy......
The govt managed you lot badly, part of that was increasing salaries that couldn't be sustained in a downturn, part of it was not getting rid of the inept.....
....how did you as a public servant not part of private enterprise manage to benifit during the boom period surely your salary was fixed....oh I'm sorry no the governement decided to appease you by benchmarking you against the tech industry when that was booming, then when it went bust you were benchmarked against the construction industry.. and don't forget the finance sector also....
.....all your bills are ultimately footed by us the public...... your wage packet comes from the private sector...
You say you feel like sponging off society......, I wonder what kind of public servent you really are.. do you offer much to society.. you expect someone else to organise your friggin protests..... and then you say you will screw the tax payer by taking time off to get your 7.7%back...7.7% back that goes into a pension that the rest of the country would be happy to pay three times what you get for it......
self serving sloths like you give hardworking public servants a bad name and are the reason we have an inept healthservice, ****e financial regulators, quangos and other such waste....

bohsfc

bk wrote: »

Have you looked into breaking your fixed rate mortgage?

Yes. Just edited the post above and would first of all have to buy out of fixed and then only save €50 PM.

bohsfc

patchquinn wrote: »

bohfsc, you are the reason many people in the private sector think the public sector are spoilt and lazy......
The govt managed you lot badly, part of that was increasing salaries that couldn't be sustained in a downturn, part of it was not getting rid of the inept.....
....how did you as a public servant not part of private enterprise manage to benifit during the boom period surely your salary was fixed....oh I'm sorry no the governement decided to appease you by benchmarking you against the tech industry when that was booming, then when it went bust you were benchmarked against the construction industry.. and don't forget the finance sector also....
.....all your bills are ultimately footed by us the public...... your wage packet comes from the private sector...
You say you feel like sponging off society......, I wonder what kind of public servent you really are.. do you offer much to society.. you expect someone else to organise your friggin protests..... and then you say you will screw the tax payer by taking time off to get your 7.7%back...7.7% back that goes into a pension that the rest of the country would be happy to pay three times what you get for it......
self serving sloths like you give hardworking public servants a bad name and are the reason we have an inept healthservice, ****e financial regulators, quangos and other such waste....

I am not one of your stereotypical civil servants that you seem to think we all are and you certainly do nothing, nor does anyone, to pay towards my salary as I am in an almost self financing section within the public service.
As regards offering much to society, I offer alot within my job. It does a huge amount for society as a whole and before you ask, No, I am not telling you where or who I work for as it will cause you and others to go off on another ridiculous rant.

And benchmarking was exactly as it says 'Benchmarking'. It was to bring our pathetic salaries in line with those in the private sector.

My bottom line is that my household is down €500 pm and that is unacceptable. How much are you down as a result of the governments action today?????

*Honey*

I am sick to the teeth of the bitching going on about public service workers. Do you not think that the majority do a good hard days work? I know I do. I imagine that any doctors, nurses, cops, firemen etc etc etc do as well. And someone mentioned admin as not being front line workers? Sorry, but in some cases they for sure are and have to sort out a lot of problems on the ground in order to nip things in the bud. I work bloody hard - why should 350,000 workers in the this country of how many, 4m? be the ones who have "save the country"? Totally utterly unfair and immoral into the bargain.

The Government are not looking at income generation - they may need to cut some of the expenses yes (lets look at TD's salaries and fees, the artist tax waiver, TD's coming back from Christmas hols a week ago when we're in the biggest **** we have ever come across).. but they also need to get more money coming in - so why didn't they look at increasing the tax rates, thereby allowing everyone to "save the country". Or increase a higher rate of tax that hits the very high income earners... or hit those who own two or more houses, or decrease travel and subsistence rates in the public service which are utterly crazy. Yes, any one of those measures will not bring in enough money, but a big package of all of them will bring something in.. surely bringing in some element of income generation makes sense?

I choose to work for the public service because I felt I was giving something back to society (yes you can scoff all you like, some people do actually believe in this). I paid for my own Degree at night and I put that knowledge back into my job to try and improve it and myself. I work my ass off and so do the majority of my colleagues. Yes, undoubtedly, there is fat in the system.. there are managers who couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag and are on huge money - but this levy affects all public service workers, not just those who don't perform.

I wish people would stop bashing public service workers... and insisting on the blood of pay cuts and job losses. Do you want to be the one waiting for the fireman to put out your house and they say, sorry mate, that guy was let go yesterday? Or the doctor or the nurse or, even, God forbid the admin person who ensures that all the processes and procedures are in place so that the others can do their jobs?

If we're to get out of this, we have to do it together - those who got fat on the gravy train all these years and the public service workers who never got a Christmas bonus, free company shares, productivity bonuses etc all this time. Stop moaning "it's ok for you, you're alright Jack" ... private sector works had it good when the going was good and we all have to batten down the hatches and just get through it - but we should be getting through it together, not seperately.

I wholeheartedly applaud Eamon Gilmore who said that the person now having a pay cut (cos this is what it is, no doubt about it) of 4,000 euro or so is going to wonder why the hell they have to pay for other people's mistakes, mess up's and greed.

irish_bob

bohsfc wrote: »

People are mentioning strikes. Maybe that is not the answer but between myself and my wife, who is also a public servant, we are down €250 a fortnight. This is totally unacceptable to me as it is also in addition to the recent 1% levy.

I do feel very strongly that a march should be organised as it worked for the pensioners and all public sector workers should join in.

Why should we face the burden of bad management by the government?
No matter how much money people had in their pockets over the boom we all saved for a rainy day. It seems the government failed to do this and now the public sector workers has to pay the price.
The bank top brass made millions over the past number of years but thier bad management caused difficulties and now they need a helping hand and who has to foot the bill, me and all public servants.

I feel I would be better off to pack it all in and sell my home, offer nothing to society and scrounge off the state and have my rent and everything else paid for.

To say that I am annoyed is an understatement but I hope some group will organise a protest. If not I will look forward to my half day every Friday as that will be the 7.7% that I will be down in my salary so it will be the amount of time I will take off.

my cousing is a poultry farmer , let me know what day you and your public servant colleagues are planning to march so i can make a trip down the farm and collect 12 dozen eggs

*Honey*

irish_bob wrote: »

my cousing is a poultry farmer , let me know what day you and your public servant colleagues are planning to march so i can make a trip down the farm and collect 12 dozen eggs

That's pretty damn insulting.

bohsfc

irish_bob wrote: »

my cousing is a poultry farmer , let me know what day you and your public servant colleagues are planning to march so i can make a trip down the farm and collect 12 dozen eggs

Can you not afford to buy them.

irish_bob

*Honey* wrote: »

That's pretty damn insulting.

whats insulting is those of us who work in the private sector and who have seen our incomes drop by 40% in the past year while still having to listen to public servants bitch about having to contribute more to thier own pension

the sense of entitlment is truly stagering , the only thing disgracefull about today was that the goverment didnt go far enough , im dead serious , if i see a single public servant out striking , its out with the rancid tomoatoes

irish_bob

bohsfc wrote: »

Can you not afford to buy them. TWAT

luckily he doesnt charge for the rotten eggs , still they have and will have thier uses

bohsfc

irish_bob wrote: »

whats insulting is those of us who work in the private sector and who have seen our incomes drop by 40% in the past year while still having to listen to public servants bitch about having to contribute more to thier own pension

the sense of entitlment is truly stagering , the only thing disgracefull about today was that the goverment didnt go far enough , im dead serious , if i see a single public servant out striking , its out with the rancid tomoatoes

How much were you earning before your paycut? I can guarantee you it was alot more than anyone in the public service.
Todays announcement should have hit every worker with a 1 or 2 % tax increase, simple.

Damomanye

I cant believe the retired public servants on their pentions which tie in directly with current income rates wont be affected.
Theres the rest of us losing our pentions completely and he spares the retired lads the cut.
They should have to take the cut just like the current public servants...
He was just worried about the coffin-dodger vote when the next election comes around.
Its a pity he didnt right off the next election and just cut cut cut!!!

bohsfc

irish_bob wrote: »

luckily he doesnt charge for the rotten eggs , still they have and will have thier uses

Maybe you will be unfortunate enough to eat some of them and give you the sick stomach that all/most public servants have today.

kayhill

*Honey* wrote: »

why should 350,000 workers in the this country of how many, 4m? be the ones who have "save the country"?

hit those who own two or more houses, or decrease travel and subsistence rates in the public service which are utterly crazy.

Problem is only 2.1m of those 4m are working (figures from May 08, you can knock a lot off that figure since) and that number is dropping by the day, 370,000 of those are in the public service, and another chunk are outside the tax net. So the number of contributors is far less than 4 million.

Also I'm pretty sure they announced plans to tax second homes and change the travel & subsistence rates.

All said though I do feel sorry for hardworking frontline public sector staff and wonder when the government will announce a massive pay cut for the group who are easily the most underperforming public servants -politicians

*Honey*

Irish_bob, you obviously have a major chip on your shoulder. Why aren't you discussing all the perks that private sector workers got riding the gravy train all this time? The shares in their companies, the big fat bonuses, the paid for Christmas parties with free bars etc? The expense accounts? Company cars? The list could go on and on and on. Public servants got none of these perks in the "good" times. We got on with our jobs and did what we could. We worked with archaic systems and procedures imposed due to enormous bureaucracy - not of our doing! I have agreed that at management and higher levels there is no doubt fat in the system and a lot could be overhauled but the standard woker, the one just getting on with the job has never had control over this. You seem to think that public servants are sitting on their behinds laughing at everyone else about this recession - we also have relatives who are losing their jobs, who are suffering because of the mistakes of bankers and property developers and all those who rode the gravy train without a second thought for the future when it all comes crashing down - which, of course, it does and it did (as it always will - look at any economy over it's history and you will see hills and troughs - a good Government [laughable thought in this country] would have planned for that rather than buying people's votes with giveaway budgets).

See the bigger picture - public sector workers did not make this happen, we, therefore, shouldn't be the scapegoats. No public service worker will say that they shouldn't pay a damn penny, all they're saying is that the pain should be felt equally across the system in a fair and equitable manner.

*Honey*

Damomanye wrote: »

I cant believe the retired public servants on their pentions which tie in directly with current income rates wont be affected.
Theres the rest of us losing our pentions completely and he spares the retired lads the cut.
They should have to take the cut just like the current public servants...
He was just worried about the coffin-dodger vote when the next election comes around.
Its a pity he didnt right off the next election and just cut cut cut!!!

You fail to realise that these "coffin dodgers" as you so rudely put it, have paid tax and social insurance for their whole working lives, at a substantially higher rate that you are currently paying - don't forget that the tax rate was up to 70% not that many years ago.

Lets hope when you reach that age, someone isn't so scathing about your future on your fixed income.

nesf

bohsfc wrote: »

Can you not afford to buy them. TWAT

You're new so I'll give you a warning instead of a ban. Do not insult people and do not rise to their bait.

irish_bob wrote:

my cousing is a poultry farmer , let me know what day you and your public servant colleagues are planning to march so i can make a trip down the farm and collect 12 dozen eggs

You too, if I see another post baiting people like this, you'll get a ban.

nesf

To all you new arrivals, keep things civil please.