Post Cowen Plan debate:

*Honey*

Kayhill, the answer to your question will be never. They will never admit that they're vastly overpaid for what they do. Hell, even Cowan is on more money that Barack Obama for the Lord's sake!!! Insanity!!!

For a country that is going through it's worst economic situation in decades, it's laughable, and a little sick making, to realise that the Dail only returned from their Christmas holidays a week ago!!!! More insanity!!!

patchquinn

bohsfc wrote: »

I am not one of your stereotypical civil servants that you seem to think we all are .......

I think a majority of public servants are hardworking.. I never said otherwise.. I said some give the majority a bad name. Those that seem to think that they are entitled to high salaries regardless of whether the economy is going up or down.. my post was prompted by anger over your statement that you were going to take half days on friday to get your 7.7% back..

Can I take it you didn't mean that?

Apologies for taking it out on you, I just get annoyed at the go slows, work to rules and half days that I have witnessed and some of my firends have boasted of.... I was stuck in a go slow at Dublin Airport recently from gardai who don't think 42euros for dinner while on shift is a little too much, from watching staff in the HSE refusing to answer phones or clean sinks on a work to rule while my father tried to beat cancer, and illnesses he got in hospital....the best treatment he got was in private hospitals miles from his home.

I sympathise with you being down money..

bohsfc wrote: »

My bottom line is that my household is down €500 pm and that is unacceptable. How much are you down as a result of the governments action today?????

I am down about 500pm also, based on govt inaction before today, and I will be taking unpaid holidays for the remainder of the year, I am also watching colleagues go in layoffs and I wonder about my own security, my pension has taken a severe walloping and is a joke at the moment...

I am glad to hear your department is "almost" self financing.. In private industry if you were "almost" self financing you could only avoid going out of business by cutting expenditure such as wages and staff.

I get tired of people crying "unfair" in the public secor....reality is not supposed to be fair it just is. "Unacceptable" you say. You will have to accept something, the money is simply not there.

My empathy regarding loss of income, you would have more sympathy if you accepted it with dignity, or protested in ways that did not steal from the tax payer.

DJDC

See the bigger picture - public sector workers did not make this happen, we, therefore, shouldn't be the scapegoats. No public service worker will say that they shouldn't pay a damn penny, all they're saying is that the pain should be felt equally across the system in a fair and equitable manner.

You're right you didn't make it happen. It was the collapse in the Sub-prime mortgage market that was the first domino to collapse in July 2007. It was the bankers in London and Wall Street earning millions feeding off human greed who flooded the world with cheap credit that caused it. But life isnt fair, the Irish governments books don't balance and something urgently needs to be done before our credit rating goes to junk bond status and the IMF get called in.

Life isnt fair. Its out of your hands now, it always has been.

bohsfc

patchquinn wrote: »

I think a majority of public servants are hardworking.. I never said otherwise.. I said some give the majority a bad name. Those that seem to think that they are entitled to high salaries regardless of whether the economy is going up or down.. my post was prompted by anger over your statement that you were going to take half days on friday to get your 7.7% back..

Can I take it you didn't mean that?

Apologies for taking it out on you, I just get annoyed at the go slows, work to rules and half days that I have witnessed and some of my firends have boasted of.... I was stuck in a go slow at Dublin Airport recently from gardai who don't think 42euros for dinner while on shift is a little too much, from watching staff in the HSE refusing to answer phones or clean sinks on a work to rule while my father tried to beat cancer, and illnesses he got in hospital....the best treatment he got was in private hospitals miles from his home.

I sympathise with you being down money..


I am down about 500pm also, based on govt inaction before today, and I will be taking unpaid holidays for the remainder of the year, I am also watching colleagues go in layoffs and I wonder about my own security, my pension has taken a severe walloping and is a joke at the moment...

I am glad to hear your department is "almost" self financing.. In private industry if you were "almost" self financing you could only avoid going out of business by cutting expenditure such as wages and staff.

I get tired of people crying "unfair" in the public secor....reality is not supposed to be fair it just is. "Unacceptable" you say. You will have to accept something, the money is simply not there.

My empathy regarding loss of income, you would have more sympathy if you accepted it with dignity, or protested in ways that did not steal from the tax payer.

I would have no problem accepting a pay cut or tax increase if it was accross the board, not just on public servants who at the end of the day are bailing out government, bank and builders failures.

peanuthead

Jesus Ive never been more annoyed to be Irish to be honest. What a pack of absolute sausage-eating fat stupid fu*ks run this country. Well we all know where theyre running it...

*Honey*

DJDC wrote: »

You're right you didn't make it happen. It was the collapse in the Sub-prime mortgage market that was the first domino to collapse in July 2007. It was the bankers in London and Wall Street earning millions feeding off human greed who flooded the world with cheap credit that caused it. But life isnt fair, the Irish governments books don't balance and something urgently needs to be done before our credit rating goes to junk bond status and the IMF get called in.

Life isnt fair. Its out of your hands now, it always has been.

So, any business person will tell you that the options are:
1 Cut costs AND
2 Increase income

The Government took Option 1 only, but hasn't looked at Option 2. The reality of the situation is that an increase in income tax by a percentage would have spread the burden over us all, whatever place we work in. As I've said, I've never said I shouldn't pay for something but I shouldn't be targeted to save everyone. This is a burden that should be fair and equitable across the board.

And don't forget that Irish Government, bank and builder/property developer greed had a factor in it all, on a national level. The big ol' gravy train was ridin' for all of them and they were all sitting in First class.

DublinWriter

What genius thought up the plan to cut garda and army pay when half the country are on the verge of serious civil unrest?!?

Mr.Micro

bohsfc wrote: »

I would have no problem accepting a pay cut or tax increase if it was accross the board, not just on public servants who at the end of the day are bailing out government, bank and builders failures.

Well it could be argued that the Government is directly or indirectly the employer of the public sector and has decided to make savings on salaries, so that at least people in the public sector will keep their jobs, at least for the moment.

patchquinn

why does it have to be across the board before you will accept it???

You belong to an organisation that is short of money, that organisation has decided to cut wages...

Many organisaitons in private industry are cutting wages for the same reasons. Some are doing it to stay competitive and survive.
Some orgnaisaitons aren't cutting wages but that' up to them. Perhaps its cause they are better managed or still making money or perhaps its cause they are idiots... but thats up to the organisation.

the heads of your organisation who theoretically represent the voice of the shareholders of your orgnaisation (the public) think cuts are needed.

Why do cuts have to be across the boards..
Are you the dog in the manger type that would demand everyone should get a cut too?

I assume your across the board cuts will be in the form of taxes? (correct me if you see another way) Increasing taxes across the board will not help private industry and keep jobs in the country. So we in industy will face wage cuts at the discretion of our organisation.. and we look to change jobs if we find it unacceptable, ....if there are any....

But you know something... I am hoping the cost of livving in this country will fall to something representative of the quality of the food we eat, the houses we live in and cars we drive, rather than the over inflated prices we have had... so perhaps "real" wages won't fall.

The fat years are over my friend.. we have to accept it. But they will come again, and hopefully this time we will build hospitals instead of shopping malls.

Steviemak

I've got an idea for the Govt - and Public Sector workers -

- Those that don't want to pay the pension levy can leave the pension scheme all together and set up their own pension scheme like private sector workers.

Result - their wages increase.

Any takers out there?

Didn't think so. I would pay 20% of my wages for a Defined Benefit Pension. I currently put away 10% into a Defined Contribution Pension that is down over 20% this year.

Thats a real world choice!

*Honey*

There's no choice in paying the public sector pension - you have to. Just like you have to pay the Spouses and Orphan's portion even if you're not married or have children - you can't claim that portion back for yourself when you retire though, I assume the Government just takes it back into the coffers even though you've been made pay out that money for years.

Steviemak

*Honey* wrote: »

There's no choice in paying the public sector pension - you have to.

Thats why I say its an idea

kayhill

*Honey* wrote: »

The Government took Option 1 only, but hasn't looked at Option 2. The reality of the situation is that an increase in income tax by a percentage would have spread the burden over us all, whatever place we work in. As I've said, I've never said I shouldn't pay for something but I shouldn't be targeted to save everyone. This is a burden that should be fair and equitable across the board.

Tackling this by raising taxes, to make up the 2bn needed government would have to take at least €1000 off every worker in the country, including the ones on minimum wage, or about €2000 of every current taxpayer. So a lot of public sector workers wouldn't be much better off than with todays measures. Some may be worse off. And remember there was a tax levy introduced which kicked in only a few weeks ago. And I suspect todays announcments cutting costs will be followed by revenue generating measures in the near future, other than the 2nd house tax mentioned today.

In fact I almost hope it will, we have to start living within our means, to many people expected to have an expensive lifestyle with an average job.

alentejo

I am a public servant.
I feel that the pension levy is part of the medicine to help fix the economy. While, I dint like this on my income, I accept that it is necessary evil to help restore some kind of order on the public finances. I do feel that there is some confusion over the mechanics of this levy which the government should have very clearly outlined in the government press release. I also realize that a large number of workers have or will loose there jobs this year and I genuinely feel that the pain needs to be shared.

Now, while I am prepared to accept my medicine which regard to this levy, I am hopping mad with the government. The damage was done over the last 5-7 years where the government Pi55ed money down the drain and did not carry out any kind of strategic planning for when the property boom would eventually come to an end. I am mad with the government.

I cant help feel that its the actions of others have caused some much pain and grief for both public / private sectors.

hedgeh0g

*Honey* wrote: »

Kayhill, the answer to your question will be never. They will never admit that they're vastly overpaid for what they do. Hell, even Cowan is on more money that Barack Obama for the Lord's sake!!! Insanity!!!

+1

"even Cowan is on more money that Barack Obama for the Lord's sake!!!"

Mad alright.

kayhill

actually, having looked up the figures, there were 878,000 outside the tax net at the time of the 2008 budget (taken from the budget speech), couple that with the dropping numbers in employment after the last few months of skyrocketing live register figures and you possibly have only about a million taxpayers. And a lot of them will be in the public service. You possibly have as little as 3 private sector taxpayers for every 1 public sector. Maybe that's old news but it surprises me. And of course taxes are raised elsewhere...

NewDubliner

Steviemak wrote: »

- Those that don't want to pay the pension levy can leave the pension scheme all together and set up their own pension scheme like private sector workers.

Do private sector workers finance 100% of their own pensions?

pete

Courtesy of PSEU circular issued this evening...

johnnyc

i feel sorry for cowen he inherited a mess from bertie ahern

Steviemak

NewDubliner wrote: »

Do private sector workers finance 100% of their own pensions?

I would expect that most private sector employees don't have pensions and if they do the investment in the pension is subject to market conditions unlike public sector pensions.

Link

http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0904/pension.html

markpb

johnnyc wrote: »

i feel sorry for cowen he inherited a mess from bertie ahern

I would too... If he hadn't been Minister for Finance under Bertie. He could have said something or done something years ago but he put his career in FF before the country. Now like the PDs and the Greens, he'll be Berties mudguard.

DoubleJoe7

To be honest while I have a lot of sympathy who loses some of their take home pay, I'm fed up with the hyperbole spouted by some in the public sector who act as if they're a scapegoat for the current woes.

No one blames the average public sector worker but the reality is that WE CANT AFFORD THE WAGES ANYMORE.

The private sector has shed jobs and cuts are taken everywhere - it's funny how when the private sector goes well the public sector want benchmarking yet when finances are in decline the majority refuse to share the pain, only wanting instead to have their cut of the spoils in the so called 'good times'.

The reality is we lost the run of ourselves, thanks to glorious mismanagement from FF. The bubble grew and grew and everyone demanded more and more, feasting on cheap credit because anyone who doubted that the growth wasn't sustainable was derided as unpatriotic.

Heinrich

johnnyc wrote: »

i feel sorry for cowen he inherited a mess from bertie ahern

And a juicy fat salary!

Paddy Samurai

Great! now on top of everything else we have 350,000 plus angry,resentfull public sector workers with chips on their shoulders,who are policemen,soldiers,healthcare workers,tax inspectors etc,etc,etc, all of whom blame the private sector for their problems.

YES ITS OFFICIAL,THIS COUNTRY IS FCUKED!. LETS ALL EMIGRATE?.BUT WHERE?.

BornToKill

pete wrote: »

Courtesy of PSEU circular issued this evening...

That PSEU circular - is that an error where it shows those on €15,000-€35,000 being able to expect relief at 41%?

nesf

BornToKill wrote: »

That PSEU circular - is that an error where it shows those on €15,000-€35,000 being able to expect relief at 41%?

They were just lazy and did a simple spreadsheet quickly I imagine.

Is it even clear that they can claim tax relief on the levy yet?

Larrson

johnnyc wrote: »

i feel sorry for cowen he inherited a mess from bertie ahern

Who was Finace Minister during Berties Term, COWEN FFS

NewDubliner

Steviemak wrote: »

I would expect that most private sector employees don't have pensions and if they do the investment in the pension is subject to market conditions unlike public sector pensions.

If they pay PRSI, are they not entitled to gold-plated, state-guaranteed Contributory Social Welfare Pensions, the amount of which is not linked directly to the investment of their contributions?

NewDubliner

NewDubliner wrote: »

If they pay PRSI, are they not entitled to gold-plated, state-guaranteed Contributory Social Welfare Pensions, the amount of which is not linked directly to the investment of their contributions?

Sorry I haven't read this thread but aren't public servants entitled to that as well on top of their special pension thanks to prsi ?

joolsveer

Most civil servants are not entitled to the contributory old age pension. People recruited since the early 90s pay a different rate of PRSI and are on higher pay scales to compensate. They get the OAP but their occupational pension is reduced by the same amount.

I am self employed so don't take this a gospel. I have a friend who is a public servant though!