Post Cowen Plan debate:

madmoe

All very interesting talk but at the end of the day when the next election comes around who will be voted back in.....FF of course, same old same old crew will make sure they get back in!

Until the backhanders and the golden handshakes stop nothing will change IMHO!

Celticfire

donmaga1 wrote: »

Ireland should be ran like a buisness. Ireland has some great buissness people. Get them in to advise the government.

The "great" business people of this country have already run it into the ground with their greed. Who would you propose to run the country , top bankers, builders and developers or tax exiles?

Cowen show have appointed an accountant as Minister for Finance.

I heard Ernst & Young have some top rate accountants. :rolleyes:

Lplated

I was surprised at how little he announced yesterday.

In a press conference after the Dail speech, Taoiseach said that in 2009 govt expected to spend 55 billion and take in 37 billion - so a shortfall of 18 billion.

Yesterday we managed to cut the defecit by 2 billion. Yipee.

No plans revealed to stimulate the economy, to support new enterprise, nothing. Just a rather meagre attempt to make public servants contribute a bit more towards their secured pensions.

Larrson

madmoe wrote: »

All very interesting talk but at the end of the day when the next election comes around who will be voted back in.....FF of course, same old same old crew will make sure they get back in!

Until the backhanders and the golden handshakes stop nothing will change
IMHO!

I agree 100%

jmayo

Mr.Micro wrote: »

For the moment he has hit the public sector workers, a safe option for the Government and left the private sector for the minute to make small savings in a very large gulf. No point in further penalising the private sector at the minute, as with detiorating conditions many firms may not be around in the near future.

So what about all the private sector pay freezes, redundancies, receiverships, liquidations etc...
Tax private sector out of existence would be the result of hitting private sector.

jimmysull wrote: »

Not sure what good an election would be. They'd be falling over themselves to lose it. Does the winner then have a true mandate?

What we need is Enda Kenny to step aside as leader of FG, get R Bruton to take over. That will take time but then have an election when there is someone who could actually sort out the mess ready to take over. He would get a mandate with Gilmore as Tainaiste. Better give a mandate to people we believe have a fighting chance of sorting out the mess than rushing it now and having a government with a "default" mandate.

Only problem is we could be bankrupt in the meantime:(

If anything we need a good Finance Minister and let him have free rein.
Enda may not be to everyones taste but dear God look at the current crew.
Last night he asked Coughlan when the bill to capitalise the banks were coming in and she kept stonewalling and said the minister was working on it.
The government are a joke.

BroomBurner wrote: »

That's a very simplistic attitude to take.
There are surely better ways to raise money than to tax a pension? It smacks of a government making decisions based on members of the private sector whispering in their ear.
No one in the public sector is ignorant to the bad times we're currently in, so let's leave off the simple slurs.

As opposed to listening to public sector unions :rolleyes:
I think some people in public sector are ignorant if they think that we can keep borrowing to pay for their salaries, their pensions and the perks enjoyed by the ones at the top, or the ones who recently resigned in disgrace.

bdoo wrote: »

Bring back McCreevy!!

Ah yes the great man who started the ball rolling :rolleyes:

TJJP wrote: »

http://www.publicjobs.ie/

Fás are looking for a director general....

Must be friend of FF and Mary Harney. Also must like flying. Must be honourable and have no problem screwing the taxpayer, private and public.

NewDubliner wrote: »

Do private sector workers finance 100% of their own pensions?

I do and I watched 50% wiped in the last year of one frozen pension and I am afriad to ask about the other one. I will probably owe the pension funds when I retire.
Would you like to swap pensions ?

johnnyc wrote: »

i feel sorry for cowen he inherited a mess from bertie ahern

HE HELPED CREATE IT
so screw him and the donkey he rode in on.

PS Mods I know not nice language but dear God are people so dumb they can't see how we got into this and who was responsible.

Celticfire wrote: »

The "great" business people of this country have already run it into the ground with their greed. Who would you propose to run the country , top bankers, builders and developers or tax exiles?

I heard Ernst & Young have some top rate accountants. :rolleyes:

You forgot they were greatly helped by some of the top public servants i.e. government ministers, co. councillors, financial regulators, public sector chief execs and some lower public servants such as planners and county engineers.
Greed is not just confined to private sector see Fás for example.

Lemming

I'd just like to ask all those public sector workers who have posted here;

What are your credible suggestions to counter the very real and serious (and somewhat overlooked) fundamental issue of "There. is. no. f*cking. money."?

To those bleating on about how the public sector are the only ones "paying", pull your snouts out of the trough and take a look around. The private sector is haemmoraging jobs, pensions, and any sort of finance and has been for months.

I'm due to lose my job at the end of this month. I'd rather take a 7.7% pay decrease over a 100% decrease. Simplistic argument? Of course it is. But at the end of the day, the argument ultimately boils down to one of simplicity; Money. Is it there? The answer is a very clear, unambigious, sobering, and resounding "No". Regardless of who is to blame, that's the bottom line.

BroomBurner

Lemming wrote: »

I'd just like to ask all those public sector workers who have posted here;

What are your credible suggestions to counter the very real and serious (and somewhat overlooked) fundamental issue of "There. is. no. f*cking. money."?

To those bleating on about how the public sector are the only ones "paying", pull your snouts out of the trough and take a look around. The private sector is haemmoraging jobs, pensions, and any sort of finance and has been for months.

I'm due to lose my job at the end of this month. I'd rather take a 7.7% pay decrease over a 100% decrease. Simplistic argument? Of course it is. But at the end of the day, the argument ultimately boils down to one of simplicity; Money. Is it there? The answer is a very clear, unambigious, sobering, and resounding "No". Regardless of who is to blame, that's the bottom line.

How about reading some posts in other threads that are on this topic, or checking out the Economics forum, where plenty of public servants have outlined their suggestions. Or you could just continue to be ignorant and believe that we're all thick wasters that don't deserve any sort of wage ever.

Berti Vogts

BroomBurner wrote: »

How about reading some posts in other threads that are on this topic, or checking out the Economics forum, where plenty of public servants have outlined their suggestions. Or you could just continue to be ignorant and believe that we're all thick wasters that don't deserve any sort of wage ever.

Where exactly did he say that you were all thick wasters Broom Burner?

BroomBurner

Possibilities wrote: »

Where exactly did he say that you were all thick wasters Broom Burner?

I was taking a liberty there, but yeah you're right to pick up on the weakest part of my post :rolleyes:

truthflyer

Let's face it, the Civil "Servants" had it coming.......

The only problem is the measures did not go far enough

David Begg is in the firing line as being responsible for destroying the country.

Please please just one day in our history could we have a strong leader.

What's needed now is a Maggie to sort out these parasites

Steviemak

1500 private sector jobs being lost every working day and the Public Sector feel victimised for having to a levy on the best pensions money can buy. The pensions cost 31% of their wages yet they only pay about 9% for them. My heart bleeds.

The govt should give public servants an option - if you want these pensions then you must contribute to them. If you don't want then then give them up and pay no levy. Simple.

Link
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0204/jobless.html

Mr.Micro

The only problem is the measures did not go far enough

David Begg is in the firing line as being responsible for destroying the country.

Please please just one day in our history could we have a strong leader.

What's needed now is a Maggie to sort out these parasites

For the last number of weeks on TV we all saw the various union people marching into negotiations with their big coats, like an alternative cabinet. Too much power, it was like being in the 70 s where the Unions ruled OK.

truthflyer

Mr.Micro wrote: »

For the last number of weeks on TV we all saw the various union people marching into negotiations with their big coats, like an alternative cabinet. Too much power, it was like being in the 70 s where the Unions ruled OK.

Don't forget there were even Priests in there!

Mr.Micro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Micro View Post
For the moment he has hit the public sector workers, a safe option for the Government and left the private sector for the minute to make small savings in a very large gulf. No point in further penalising the private sector at the minute, as with detiorating conditions many firms may not be around in the near future.

So what about all the private sector pay freezes, redundancies, receiverships, liquidations etc...
Tax private sector out of existence would be the result of hitting private sector.

That's my point he cannot tax them for fear of putting them out of business all together as many are on the brink.

joolsveer

truthflyer wrote: »

Let's face it, the Civil "Servants" had it coming.......

The only problem is the measures did not go far enough

David Begg is in the firing line as being responsible for destroying the country.

Please please just one day in our history could we have a strong leader.

What's needed now is a Maggie to sort out these parasites

I believe that only 10% of the public service employees are civil servants so targeting civil servants alone would not raise enough money.

grahamo

truthflyer wrote: »

Let's face it, the Civil "Servants" had it coming.......

The only problem is the measures did not go far enough

David Begg is in the firing line as being responsible for destroying the country.

Please please just one day in our history could we have a strong leader.

What's needed now is a Maggie to sort out these parasites

I'm not civil service but why did they 'Have it coming'? Have they offended you personally in some way?

As for Maggie 'Facist' f***ing Thatcher. You are obviously not old enough to
realise the damage she did to ordinary people & families.

Parasites? Who the f*** do you think you are? Do these people not go to work every day? Don't they pay taxes? You sound like a sad, bitter little person. Obviously silver spoon fed.

OhNoYouDidn't

the most sickening hypocricy is that all those calling for the public sector to take 15% pay cuts and lose all overtime and be thankfull for it is that these same people will still expect a Garda response before they hang up the phone, johnny and mary to be taught above and beyond the teachers contract, to be in and out of A&E within an hour and litter free streets.

Larrson

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

the most sickening hypocricy is that all those calling for the public sector to take 15% pay cuts and lose all overtime and be thankfull for it is that these same people will still expect a Garda response before they hang up the phone, johnny and mary to be taught above and beyond the teachers contract, to be in and out of A&E within an hour and litter free streets.

Well Said

Dr Galen

you know rumours abound that the Civil Service have a lad at a desk who keeps an eye on sites like boards.ie, guage the public reaction to the various government announcements etc etc and report back to the big boys.

I can see it now Biffo and Co. sitting back in the office thinking "Jesus lads we've done it, they're divided. The Public lads hate the privates and they're all blaming each other!! We're getting away with it!"

I've worked in the private sector for several years, went to college, trained as a nurse and worked in the public hospitals, then moved to further my career in a specific direction back to the private sector, so I've seen all sides of the story. With that in mind, we're all getting screwed here, public and private alike. Yeah, some more than others but still we're all in this pretty much together.

Meanwhile, the Dail takes six weeks off, Biffo slopes off the Davos, a fairly redundant trip seeing as he appears to have the economic nous of a dead hedgehog and we still don't have any joined up, thought out plan to at least try and save the country.

We can apportion blame to bankers, builders and the government all day long but as others have said, hindsight is 20/20 vision. I didn't hear many complaining when they marched up to said banks and came away with mortgages worth 100% of property price (not value!) worth 7 and 8 times their salaries. Plasterers in BMW's, with second homes in Marbella, and public sector mandarins swanning around the world in 1st class! Blame and bad feeling aren't going to get us out of this, not by a long shot.

Get rid of those jokers in power for a start. Redundant of any original thinking, disconnected from the electorate and generally lacking in leadership as a group. Every party will have to come up with a real set of proposals on how they would manage things from here on in, and the electorate can decide.

As much as public sector redundancies seem like a good idea, those let go will just end up on the live register, thus increasing the umemployment benefit costs, and costing us just as much as before. Get them working, get them shifted.

I see nothing from the government to stimulate growth and recovery. Its all about fire fighting, which though important, isn't going to get us back on track. How about cutting red tape around doing business in this country, introduce an initiative around areas that are seen as the future growth areas in business, e.g green power generation, bio/nano tech and others, look to provide capital for investment in such companies, opening up the possibility of return for tax payers in the long term, creating jobs across the board. Look at stealth taxes....and VAT. If VAT is reduced would this have a stimulatory effect on spending by consumers, which would then increase Tax take.

Its easy to despair at times like this, but for those of us old enough to remember the 80's even as kids, they were rough times, we're not there yet, and if we just pull the finger out as a nation, stop sniping and get down to some old fashioned graft and a bit of creative thinking we'll manage!

Highsider

Step one on the road to recovery must be getting rid of the goverment in power right now. It really is that simple.

thebman

BroomBurner wrote: »

How about reading some posts in other threads that are on this topic, or checking out the Economics forum, where plenty of public servants have outlined their suggestions. Or you could just continue to be ignorant and believe that we're all thick wasters that don't deserve any sort of wage ever.

I've not seen one realistic alternative put forward by anyone on this forum TBH.

If you've seen one that wouldn't just kill the private sector or bankrupt the country then please highlight it.

BroomBurner wrote: »

Anyway, back to the main topic. The dole should have been decreased aswell. If Ireland wants to stay competitive, we should have a competitive workforce and one that doesn't find it easier to be on the dole than to work.

I imagine its on the way. This is just the first of a number of painful measures. I know I have a job at the moment, most likely gone in the next 3-6 months. My employer doesn't give warnings or reduce pay though. They will just call me down to HR and say bye. Definitely going to happen and so many other people I know are in the same boat

And I don't work in manufacturing or anything else like that. I have a very high recognised degree. My only hope is capturing one of the few other jobs going before I'm let go. I work in the so called "knowledge economy" that our present government has been going on about but refusing to invest in for the past 5 fooking years (being generous, its longer)!

Highsider wrote: »

Step one on the road to recovery must be getting rid of the goverment in power right now. It really is that simple.

Most of the nation will agree with you but how exactly do you get them to call a general election early?

Oh and as I've seen it written in half of these threads, no I don't read the fooking sindo.

truthflyer

grahamo wrote: »

I'm not civil service but why did they 'Have it coming'? Have they offended you personally in some way?

As for Maggie 'Facist' f***ing Thatcher. You are obviously not old enough to
realise the damage she did to ordinary people & families.

Parasites? Who the f*** do you think you are? Do these people not go to work every day? Don't they pay taxes? You sound like a sad, bitter little person. Obviously silver spoon fed.

It is common knowledge that many of the public servants in Ireland have been milking the system to the detriment of the country as a whole.
Maggie was by no means a perfect act but she did succeed to routing out the unions power in the UK for the benefit of all. IMHO Ireland desperately needs a leader that can illuminate the power of the unions in this country. The government needs to destroy this union power base before it is too late for us all. Sadly this government is spineless and as such does not command the necessary respect.
Have you noticed that the PIGS + Ireland all have something in common?

bohsfc

Alot of people are saying, on this forum, that good enough for the public servants, they had it coming and its about time they were hit.
We did not benefit from the boom with big bonuses or anything else.
Now that we have security in our jobs while everyone else is F****d all of a sudden people have a chip on there shoulders towards us.

The reality is that the govenment made announcements yesterday that is going to see mine, and plenty of other households, down €500PM.

There reason for this was not to make us pay more towards our own pensions but to save money so that they can bail out all of the businesses in the private sector that are going bust due to their own and the governments mis-management.
So truth is we are left to bail out ordinary people been put on the dole while bank officials and builders still sit high and mighty up the food chain and remain untouched financially.

We are living in a banana republic which was brought about by the great FF and their arrogance over the past 10 years.

Having said that, will a change of government do any good, who knows because we have been put into such a mess by FF, its going to take a miracle to get out of it. But am I going to stand for €500 less per month coming into my house? Not on your nelly!!!!!!

thebman

bohsfc wrote: »

Alot of people are saying, on this forum, that good enough for the public servants, they had it coming and its about time they were hit.
We did not benefit from the boom with big bonuses or anything else.
Now that we have security in our jobs while everyone else is F****d all of a sudden people have a chip on there shoulders towards us.

The reality is that the govenment made announcements yesterday that is going to see mine, and plenty of other households, down €500PM.

There reason for this was not to make us pay more towards our own pensions but to save money so that they can bail out all of the businesses in the private sector that are going bust due to their own and the governments mis-management.
So truth is we are left to bail out ordinary people been put on the dole while bank officials and builders still sit high and mighty up the food chain and remain untouched financially.

We are living in a banana republic which was brought about by the great FF and their arrogance over the past 10 years.

Having said that, will a change of government do any good, who knows because we have been put into such a mess by FF, its going to take a miracle to get out of it. But am I going to stand for €500 less per month coming into my house? Not on your nelly!!!!!!

Its not to bail out the private sector, its to save their balance sheet.

They shouldn't be bailing out Anglo, if your going to protest something, protest about that, not the levy which will be needed regardless of whether banks are bailed out or not.

Private businesses are dying everyday without being saved. Your not saving the private sector. The private sector is dying and there isn't enough money to pay for the public sector anymore because taxes are down.

Padraig Mor

bohsfc wrote: »

. But am I going to stand for €500 less per month coming into my house? Not on your nelly!!!!!!

The simple reality is that without cuts such as this (and there will be far worse to come) you will have NOTHING coming into your house per month - the govt is facing bankruptcy within the year which may mean NO pay to you, NO dole, nothing. You should be damn glad to have a job at all. It's time you and those like you quit bitching and realised how lucky you are.

BTW I will also be paying this levy and am bloody happy to do so if I keep my job (although am on contract so could go at any stage). I also recognise that public pay WILL be cut at least another 15%+ and am prepared to do my bit, despite the hardship it will cause my family. (And no, I don't support the bank bailouts.)

Dotsie~tmp

bohsfc wrote: »

Alot of people are saying, on this forum, that good enough for the public servants, they had it coming and its about time they were hit.
We did not benefit from the boom with big bonuses or anything else.
Now that we have security in our jobs while everyone else is F****d all of a sudden people have a chip on there shoulders towards us.

The reality is that the govenment made announcements yesterday that is going to see mine, and plenty of other households, down €500PM.

There reason for this was not to make us pay more towards our own pensions but to save money so that they can bail out all of the businesses in the private sector that are going bust due to their own and the governments mis-management.
So truth is we are left to bail out ordinary people been put on the dole while bank officials and builders still sit high and mighty up the food chain and remain untouched financially.

We are living in a banana republic which was brought about by the great FF and their arrogance over the past 10 years.

Having said that, will a change of government do any good, who knows because we have been put into such a mess by FF, its going to take a miracle to get out of it. But am I going to stand for €500 less per month coming into my house? Not on your nelly!!!!!!

I picture you as a poster boy for whats wrong with the public service.

This country doesn't owe you a living and money doesn't grow on trees. If you aren't happy with your lot go out into the real economy and see what its like. Striking is pointless as the is nothing to gain (see no money trees).

Tripmann

thebman wrote: »

I've not seen one realistic alternative put forward by anyone on this forum TBH.

How about a third income tax bracket of 48% on incomes over €70,000 with a smaller, fairer pensions levy on the public service. How about closing the tax exile loopholes, which cost the state 100s of millions per annum? How about sharing the burden fairly? Wheres the pain for the people who made their fortunes thanks to the money spent by ordinary workers, yes, shock, including the public servants, during the good times.

I'm a civil servant and there is NOT ONE SINGLE person in my workplace today complaining about doing our part towards recovery. The anger is the inequity of the solution, and the sheer stupidity of trying to recover an economy by taking money out of the pockets of the people who, now more than ever, HAVE to spend every penny they earn to keep their heads above water.

Removing a huge chunk of disposable income from the part of the population who need to spend it day to day (i.e. don't invest or have the capacity to save money) is nuts.

gnxx

The problem with these measures is they are simply not enough. As the other gob****e in Fine Gael said "a sticking plaster".

We all know that we are in trouble. The vast majority of people will accept some pain in terms of tax increases etc.

The big stumbling block with placing a increasing the tax burden on the private sector is that we believe that we don't obtain value for money.

Imagine the following:
- fire those who bring the public service into disrepute
- jail and confisicate assets from those involved in corruption
- make bosses in the public sector accountable for their employees
- force the nationalisation of the banks and allow the public to buy shares
- jail and fine bank officials who acted improperly during boom years
- allow the renegotiation of mortgages
- increase the quantity and quality of front-line public service employees
- tax investigatation for people who gained significant wealth in last 10 year
- Increase tax by 5% across the board; everybody; no exceptions

Everybody suffers. But those who got us into this position suffer most :-)

thebman

Tripmann wrote: »

How about a third income tax bracket of 48% on incomes over €70,000 with a smaller, fairer pensions levy on the public service. How about closing the tax exile loopholes, which cost the state 100s of millions per annum? How about sharing the burden fairly? Wheres the pain for the people who made their fortunes thanks to the money spent by ordinary workers, yes, shock, including the public servants, during the good times.

I think we are going something like that anyway to stay afloat as a country.

I'm a civil servant and there is NOT ONE SINGLE person in my workplace today complaining about doing our part towards recovery. The anger is the inequity of the solution, and the sheer stupidity of trying to recover an economy by taking money out of the pockets of the people who, now more than ever, HAVE to spend every penny they earn to keep their heads above water.

Removing a huge chunk of disposable income from the part of the population who need to spend it day to day (i.e. don't invest or have the capacity to save money) is nuts.

If its disposable income then I don't see the problem because the government has no money to dispose of. In fact it has 20 billion that it literally has to pull out of its arse to balance the books this year and we'll need more next year.

I'd gladly take a 10% pay increase if I thought it would help although I honestly don't think I can afford to live on that little, at least not comfortably. The reality is we are all in for a rude wake up call. The private sector will get its lashing in a few months from the government, once its stopped hemorrhaging jobs and posting losses for quarters.

Some businesses have not cut costs yet but they are on the way, make no mistake about that. Once private sector employers see there are more employees than jobs and that the cost of living has gone down, they will reduce pay for their workers.

OhNoYouDidn't

A very resonable post (for D7 vermin ) from someone down 500 lids a month gets this:

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

This country doesn't owe you a living and money doesn't grow on trees.

There really should be a ban on those who are too young to work lecturing the rest of us like that.