Post Cowen Plan debate:

oscarBravo

Same polite warning as in the other thread:

This is a forum for grown-up discussion.

Childish rants will earn infractions and bans. If you're interested in a sensible, rational discussion, you're more than welcome to continue posting here.

I strongly suggest everyone posting here take a moment out to refresh their knowledge of the forum's rules.

bohsfc

truthflyer wrote: »

Cut their pay! Immediately. A glance at these forums shows that the lazy, greedy sods have nothing to do but sit at their computers, during working hours, to whine in columns like these.

Nothing lazy or greedy about public service workers. If we were greedy we would have gone out into the private sector while the boom was on in order to cream off the rich pickings that you all took advantage of.
As regards sitting in front of computers during working hours..EH wrong again. Its called parental leave at our own expense to look after children after school because we can't afford to send them to after school care because of huge prices and having never seen a boom in our salaries.

truthflyer

Is everyone on Cloud 9, how is the pension levy a tax, people in private sector pay between 6-15% of their income into pension plans every year with no guarntee, I would love to pay just 6% into a pension and get a guarnteed amount of income till I die. Do people not realise how good people have it in CS, a CS pension pays guarnteed pension amount until Death, Private Sector depends on the markets if u retired today ur pension would be near zero. How is paying for a guarnteed pension unfair?

truthflyer

bohsfc wrote: »

Nothing lazy or greedy about public service workers. If we were greedy we would have gone out into the private sector while the boom was on in order to cream off the rich pickings that you all took advantage of.
As regards sitting in front of computers during working hours..EH wrong again. Its called parental leave at our own expense to look after children after school because we can't afford to send them to after school care because of huge prices and having never seen a boom in our salaries.

Well you should have paid attention at school..........

Tripmann

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Public sector workers like the 3 supervisors who work on Saturday and Sunday in the hospital kitchen while 3 chefs (family member) who finish making the patients meals by 10am stand around till 2pm get paid a full day and given a day off (paid). Btw not one person actually comes into the kitchen on weekends. The chefs work hard and are well rewarded but WTF is up with 3 supervisors. How much are they costing.

You are talking about exceptions rather than the rule. If the kind of practices you talk about was the majority of public sector workers the country simply could not function.

You're a sparks, right? When I moved into my house, the electrician was one of the people I had the most hassle nailing down to correct the shambolic work he'd done. I don't go around talking about the lazy/incompetent/overpaid electricians, its not fair on the decent ones. You should do us the same courtesy.

bohsfc

truthflyer wrote: »

Well you should have paid attention at school..........

Check out the spellings in your own posts and I think you will find that its you that should have listened and learned a bit more in school;);)

gnxx

You see, this is the problem. We all know cases like this.

However, you fail to mention the Gardai and Nurses who are under-resourced and are under constant threat of phyiscal assault. You fail to mention doctors working 36 hour shifts. You don't mention the hardworking admin people in state departments that make customer service in the private sector appear amateur.

The vast majority of the public sector are hardworking, honest, smart and really good at the jobs. During boom times, the private sector couldn't keep their hands of the public sector :-)

I'm very clear what I dislike about the public sector. Inefficent management, power mad unions and my greatest dislike -- the elected bottom feeders that manage the entire mess.

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Public sector workers like the 3 supervisors who work on Saturday and Sunday in the hospital kitchen while 3 chefs (family member) who finish making the patients meals by 10am stand around till 2pm get paid a full day and given a day off (paid). Btw not one person actually comes into the kitchen on weekends. The chefs work hard and are well rewarded but WTF is up with 3 supervisors. How much are they costing.

truthflyer

bohsfc wrote: »

Check out the spellings in your own posts and I think you will find that its you that should have listened and learned a bit more in school;);)

There's too much talk of "soft tragets" and pandering to unions.God forbid the public sector should have to contribute to their pensions. The get defined benefit, unlike most of the private sector who get defined contributions. Also, private sector workers in all other developed countries have a higher average wage than public sector because of the added risk involved (ie no job security). Public sector workers in this country have been on the gravy train for years, and have been pandered to by successive governments as a vote catching mechanism.The whole social partnership idea is abhorrent when so few workers in this country are represented by trade unions in the first place. I am not a fan of Cowen's government but at least this is a step in the right direction.People need to face up to reality.It is actually quite benefial to the public sector workers in that they don't take a pay cut and thereby the pensions will remain at the current level.It does not g far enough in that there must be cuts made to the number of jobs in the public sector. I do not mean front line staff, but clerical workers etc. Also, the situation where Gardai and prison officer claim tens of thousands in overtime must be addressed.Hiring more staff for front line services will actually decrease the wage bill further (but i'm sure the unions will be out again giving out that their members should be entitled to extorionate overtime payments).In short when hundreds of thousands of wrkers in the private sector are losing their jobs, the cozy public sector need to wake up and be grateful for the fact they are in such secure positions with pension benefits that are could finance a small country

truthflyer

If the public sector are unhappy with the new levy, I wonder if they were offered a similiar job in the private sector, would they take it. I think not, job security has to have a price, and a pension levy is something they will get back when they retire anyway. So I'm sorry public sector, just DEAL WITH IT, everyone else has to.

thebman

bohsfc wrote: »

I have no need to go out into the real economy as I have a gauranteed job for the moment. But even while it was all good out there I still chose to stay in an average paid job with no bonuses or luxeries while the private sector was creaming the boom.

On the other hand why didn't all those people in the private sector who have such a chip about us now come into the public service while the boom was on.

All of us? Cheers, I'll have some of that. If well all join, I'm sure we can bankrupt the state in a month.

Since the private sector pays for much of the public sector, how would you suggest that they all join the public sector.

I would have loved to join the public sector but it wasn't hiring in my area.

Tripmann

truthflyer wrote: »

If the public sector are unhappy with the new levy, I wonder if they were offered a similiar job in the private sector, would they take it. I think not, job security has to have a price, and a pension levy is something they will get back when they retire anyway. So I'm sorry public sector, just DEAL WITH IT, everyone else has to.

This is a pay cut, not a pensions levy. Its money deducted from our wages which will be dipped into NOW, not put away for retirements.

Anyway, how would you feel if I took €50 a week off you out of what you had left to live on and told you you'll see it when you're 65?

You finished ranting/trolling? Theres grown ups here with stuff to talk about....

bohsfc

truthflyer wrote: »

There's too much talk of "soft tragets" and pandering to unions.God forbid the public sector should have to contribute to their pensions. The get defined benefit, unlike most of the private sector who get defined contributions. Also, private sector workers in all other developed countries have a higher average wage than public sector because of the added risk involved (ie no job security). Public sector workers in this country have been on the gravy train for years, and have been pandered to by successive governments as a vote catching mechanism.The whole social partnership idea is abhorrent when so few workers in this country are represented by trade unions in the first place. I am not a fan of Cowen's government but at least this is a step in the right direction.People need to face up to reality.It is actually quite benefial to the public sector workers in that they don't take a pay cut and thereby the pensions will remain at the current level.It does not g far enough in that there must be cuts made to the number of jobs in the public sector. I do not mean front line staff, but clerical workers etc. Also, the situation where Gardai and prison officer claim tens of thousands in overtime must be addressed.Hiring more staff for front line services will actually decrease the wage bill further (but i'm sure the unions will be out again giving out that their members should be entitled to extorionate overtime payments).In short when hundreds of thousands of wrkers in the private sector are losing their jobs, the cozy public sector need to wake up and be grateful for the fact they are in such secure positions with pension benefits that are could finance a small country

In all the years I never benefited from any gravy train. Any extra money I earned was through overtime, and no, we could not take on more staff because of the PD recruitment embargo.

Also I never have and never will vote for FF.

And finally, as regards the unions, I stopped paying them and bowed out after too much rail roading of agreements that I did not agree with but had no choice to go along with because of democracy, and then to top it off the officials who broker these deals obviously do deals for themselves with the government while they are selling my future because they ALL end up with plump government jobs!!!!!!

truthflyer

What is this myth among PS workers that everyone in the private sector got rich and rolled in the cash during the Celtic Tiger years? Where does this come from and who perpetuates it? The fact is, very, very few people got rich of the CT, the vast majority were slightly better off, including PS workers who did quite well comparatively from benchmarking etc.. The vast majority of average workers, let's say 95% got annual cost of living increases and not a lot more. The average industrial wage in this country has hardly moved in the last fifteen years from IR£20k to €30k, whilst PS workers have gone from earning slightly less than the average industrial wage to 20% more. Let's stick to facts, not union propaganda.

bohsfc

thebman wrote: »

All of us? Cheers, I'll have some of that. If well all join, I'm sure we can bankrupt the state in a month.

Since the private sector pays for much of the public sector, how would you suggest that they all join the public sector.

I would have loved to join the public sector but it wasn't hiring in my area.

All who are sniping at us anyway. And as I stated in a much earlier post, my particular section is 'almost' self financing and needs no help from the private sector, thanks very much.

Tripmann

thebman wrote: »

I would have loved to join the public sector but it wasn't hiring in my area.

You've NO public sector employees in your area? Where do you live?

truthflyer

Anyone else noticed the difference between the Northern Irleland road gritters and the ones here? The NI lorries gently sprinkle the roads; they pull in and slow down as other vehicles approach; sometimes even shutting off the sprayer momentarily. The shower down here boot along in the middle of the road, no warning lights visible their sprayer set to maximum muzzle velocity so when a whack of grit hits your frontend it sounds like you've just run into something or over something and you jerk the wheel in terror. Your paintwork looks like its been assaulted by a midget MOSSAD team with midget Uzis. That of course is when they're out on the roads at all and not stuck in some shed somewhere drinking tea and reading the Mirror and bitching about paycuts. I guess that must be an example of what NI means when it says its a public service driven economy.

bohsfc

truthflyer wrote: »

What is this myth among PS workers that everyone in the private sector got rich and rolled in the cash during the Celtic Tiger years? Where does this come from and who perpetuates it? The fact is, very, very few people got rich of the CT, the vast majority were slightly better off, including PS workers who did quite well comparatively from benchmarking etc.. The vast majority of average workers, let's say 95% got annual cost of living increases and not a lot more. The average industrial wage in this country has hardly moved in the last fifteen years from IR£20k to €30k, whilst PS workers have gone from earning slightly less than the average industrial wage to 20% more. Let's stick to facts, not union propaganda.

Just to remind you that 'Benchmarking' was exactly what it says on the tin. It was to bring our pathetic salaries in line with the private sector so that the government could actually hold on to the staff and not run off to earn their fortunes in the private sector.

nesf

truthflyer wrote: »

Anyone else noticed the difference between the Northern Irleland road gritters and the ones here? The NI lorries gently sprinkle the roads; they pull in and slow down as other vehicles approach; sometimes even shutting off the sprayer momentarily. The shower down here boot along in the middle of the road, no warning lights visible their sprayer set to maximum muzzle velocity so when a whack of grit hits your frontend it sounds like you've just run into something or over something and you jerk the wheel in terror. Your paintwork looks like its been assaulted by a midget MOSSAD team with midget Uzis. That of course is when they're out on the roads at all and not stuck in some shed somewhere drinking tea and reading the Mirror and bitching about paycuts. I guess that must be an example of what NI means when it says its a public service driven economy.

Quit trolling. If you've nothing worthwhile to add beyond your rants take it elsewhere.

Tripmann

truthflyer wrote: »

What is this myth among PS workers that everyone in the private sector got rich and rolled in the cash during the Celtic Tiger years?

Its kinda like the myth that the majority of public sector workers are lazy and overpaid. Its perpetuated by idiots who can't process common sense.

oscarBravo

truthflyer is banned, and others warned.

Dr Galen

truthflyer wrote: »

What is this myth among PS workers that everyone in the private sector got rich and rolled in the cash during the Celtic Tiger years? Where does this come from and who perpetuates it? The fact is, very, very few people got rich of the CT, the vast majority were slightly better off, including PS workers who did quite well comparatively from benchmarking etc.. The vast majority of average workers, let's say 95% got annual cost of living increases and not a lot more. The average industrial wage in this country has hardly moved in the last fifteen years from IR£20k to €30k, whilst PS workers have gone from earning slightly less than the average industrial wage to 20% more. Let's stick to facts, not union propaganda.

this is the first thing you've written that vaguely constitutes a relevant addition to the discussion. Your right, the overwhelming majority of public and private sector workers did NOT get rich on the back of the Celtic Tiger. So then if thats the case, and all of us are pretty much in the same boat, why all the sniping?

What appears to annoy most people is not the cuts in wages/increases in pensions etc but that fact that we were all duped into thinking that the Celtic Tiger gravytrain was for all, making us all rich and would last forever. While the reality was very much different. Nearly everyone resents having to hand over our hard earned money, no matter where you work, to the eejits who got us into this mess in the first place.

I've yet to see any real plan for fixing things, and thats the issue here

bohsfc

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

this is the first thing you've written that vaguely constitutes a relevant addition to the discussion. Your right, the overwhelming majority of public and private sector workers did NOT get rich on the back of the Celtic Tiger. So then if thats the case, and all of us are pretty much in the same boat, why all the sniping?

What appears to annoy most people is not the cuts in wages/increases in pensions etc but that fact that we were all duped into thinking that the Celtic Tiger gravytrain was for all, making us all rich and would last forever. While the reality was very much different. Nearly everyone resents having to hand over our hard earned money, no matter where you work, to the eejits who got us into this mess in the first place.

I've yet to see any real plan for fixing things, and thats the issue here

First decent post I have read here that makes alot of sense(bar my own of course).
Must be great knowledgeable people in D15.;)

Dr Galen

i never talk to any of the rest of them...........i'm much too intelligent

K-9

bohsfc wrote: »

Just to remind you that 'Benchmarking' was exactly what it says on the tin. It was to bring our pathetic salaries in line with the private sector so that the government could actually hold on to the staff and not run off to earn their fortunes in the private sector.

I can't believe people still believe this, despite all the facts.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015198.shtml

bohsfc

K-9 wrote: »

I can't believe people still believe this, despite all the facts.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015198.shtml

That link that you posted is in relation to pensions. Benchmarking was in relation to salaries.

K-9

bohsfc wrote: »

That link that you posted is in relation to pensions. Benchmarking was in relation to salaries.

Don't worry, plenty more, though considering yesterday, very contemporary.

Edit. You missed this part.

The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13% cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001.

The researchers discovered that the size of this margin (the public sector premium) in 2001 was not significantly different from what it had been in 1994, suggesting that pay increases in the public sector had kept pace with the private sector throughout the Celtic Tiger period.

Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

Tripmann

2001?

You're quoting 2001 data?

K-9

Tripmann wrote: »

2001?

You're quoting 2001 data?

Is anybody actually going to bother reading the article?

Jaysus!

bohsfc

K-9 wrote: »

Don't worry, plenty more, though considering yesterday, very contemporary.

Edit. You missed this part.

The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13% cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001.

The researchers discovered that the size of this margin (the public sector premium) in 2001 was not significantly different from what it had been in 1994, suggesting that pay increases in the public sector had kept pace with the private sector throughout the Celtic Tiger period.


Another discovery was that the margin by which public service workers outearned their private sector counterparts tended to be significantly larger at the bottom of the income distribution than at the top.

Yes and it also states the the first benchmarking process was to do exactly as I stated which was to bring us in line with the private sector salaries.
Not a myth that we believe. It was a fact!

K-9

bohsfc wrote: »

Yes and it also states the the first benchmarking process was to do exactly as I stated which was to bring us in line with the private sector salaries.
Not a myth that we believe. It was a fact!

Nope, it doesn't.

Take of the Public Sector glasses for a sec.

This:The core finding was that on average, public servants earned 13% cent more than their private sector counterparts on a like-for-like basis in 2001.

does not mean what you have interpreted it as.


Look, I'm not trying to make out they are overpaid etc. Just pointing out this perception that they are underpaid is simply untrue. Union propaganda that is outdated politics.