**West Ham vs Man Utd** East End Promise and Northern Rocks

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

still loads of time. i have no doubt Utd will clock up a few more draws this season if they don't start clicking up front.

ah "if" happens a lot of things might happen.

if united dont click

if the wind blows in the right direction..

a lickle fhact

they're on top of the league without clicking with a game in hand shouldn't be much of a problem...tbh

D.S.

Headshot wrote: »

................pl.......gd.......pts
Man Utd---24.....+31......56
Liverpool---25.....+25......54
Aston V ---25......+16......51

so much for us not scoring enough goals

Just to compliment Headshot's post..here is the same table for this time last year..


................pl.......gd.......pts
Arsenal ---25.....+34......60
Man Utd ---25.....+37......58
Chelsea ---25......+31......54

So, United are only 6 goals off the same GD from last season.

I still think an out and out striker may be what United need in the longterm. Also, 1-0 scorelines are dangerous as they allow the opposition a chance to nick a point..but we're doing v well so far this season.. and 4 trophies are still there to be played for..

Mr Alan

NTL Bell wrote: »

they're on top of the league without clicking with a game in hand shouldn't be much of a problem...tbh

and we're still within touching distance of the superest bestest team in the history of fuzzball not yet having hit any form ourselves, so lets see how interesting things get when we do :)

ntlbell

Mr Alan wrote: »

and we're still within touching distance of the superest bestest team in the history of fuzzball not yet having hit any form ourselves, so lets see how interesting things get when we do :)

saving for sig useage

MisterAnarchy

loads of stuff which is massively biased and doesnt really make sense other then to say "I really dont like Manchester United"
but this guy seems to be on that boat too. watch out alan! i smell a usurper

What are you on about ?
I am a United fan and have been for longer than you have been alive .
I am not a bandwagon supporter like so many of the guys on here ,I remember a time when Liverpool were Kings and Utd were struggling to stay afloat.
Do you ?

Yes of course I dont like Man Utd ,I despise them.
That is why I have about 10 Utd jerseys dating back 30 years ,pay to watch them on TV,go to Old Trafford regularly and went to the Champions league final in 99.

We are not all blind supporters who proclaim Utd are always great and that they are the best team in the universe.
Lets try to be objective .

Nalz

Mr Alan wrote:

no doubt

in all fairness, your one of the most begrudgin people on boards. No offence. Lets be fair here, you do have doubts. "no doubt" my ass

Jazzy

Mr Alan wrote: »

what the **** are you talking about?

i meant blunt in attack, your little vendetta against me is cute, but it can be quite tedious.....i didnt say anything that Utd fans hadn't already in this thread. they readily admit, when it comes to scoring goals, this season they look less than sharp in that department. (less than sharp/blunt)

ntlbell wrote: »

If we drew 9 matches so far you might be on to something.

pretty much that al.

once again, unobjective... objective

and yes, we did hit form. the start of the season till the end of october. then we lost to spurs and started drawing "easy" games.
i dunno, there is just always that hint of cynicism and you wanting to make utd not look as good as they are when u post in this thread. vendetta against u? lol. ur just not a very good poster. only a loud one who spams and gets all humpty when pighead or someone calls u out on ur hypocrisy

mike65

mike65 wrote: »

Hammers are looking pretty organised under Steve Clarke and have some flair in attack so it could be a well contested game which Utd will win by 1 goal cos thats what they do.

Headshot

mike65 wrote: »

good call mike

but next time say 2 goals,i was a bit nervous near the end

Chong

Lads lads there is a lot of crap talking and sheisse been banded about.

Dub13

Mod Hat on

Folks this thread is for discussing the West Ham vs Man Utd game today please keep the thread on topic,I don't want to have to close it early.

Maybe its time we had a title run in thread so these match day threads don't get over ran.

You cant complain if you get a yellow card after this post for off topic posting.


Dub13

LostinBlanch

PHB wrote: »

The problem with United isn't intent. We're still just as attacking as we've always been. The problem is that we're just not as good. The problem in my mind without a doubt is Rooney. We desperately need him back. Tevez offers very little to the team in terms of overall play.

We're also missing Evra (or Fabio) to provide that extra thrust on the left.

Headshot

LostinBlanch wrote: »

We're also missing Evra (or Fabio) to provide that extra thrust on the left.

exactly LostinBlanch

o'shea doesnt bring anything to the left side other than good defending.

with evra bombing down the left,it creates space for Ronaldo

edit:West Ham did a brilliant job on Ronaldo today,2 men on him all the time,no wonder he couldnt get into the game today

MisterAnarchy

Headshot wrote: »

exactly LostinBlanch

o'shea doesnt bring anything to the left side other than good defending.

with evra bombing down the left,it creates space for Ronaldo

Very true,Evra is a very underrated player ,he is a fine attacker,hardy bit of stuff too.

PHB

Evra not being there certainly hurts Ronaldo, he really needs the overlapping runs to draw his double and treble markers away from him.

But ultimately I think the problem with today, aside from the lack of Rooney and Evra, was that Giggs and Scholes together just can't hack those sort of matches. Giggs produced a fantastic individual goal, but the rest of the game flowed past these two. Which is without a doubt sad to see.

Aidric

Good goal by Giggs to settle a forgettable game.

lordgoat

PHB wrote: »

Evra not being there certainly hurts Ronaldo, he really needs the overlapping runs to draw his double and treble markers away from him.

But ultimately I think the problem with today, aside from the lack of Rooney and Evra, was that Giggs and Scholes together just can't hack those sort of matches. Giggs produced a fantastic individual goal, but the rest of the game flowed past these two. Which is without a doubt sad to see.

I thought Scholes was fantastic today, his passing was as ever a thing of beauty (shooting not so much) and he wasn't out of position once. Giggs did tire towards the end no doubt and i think if there wasn't an international break he'd havebeen subbed.

I also think Ronaldo did quite well having two men on him for the entire game.

Headshot

Sir Alex Ferguson felt the experience of Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes was key to Manchester United overcoming West Ham United at Upton Park.

The reigning champions returned to the Premier League summit after a 1-0 win over the Hammers, with Scholes supplying the pass for Giggs' winning goal on 62 minutes.

Scholes spread the play to his long-serving team-mate, who jinked past two players before curling a right-footed shot beyond Robert Green.

United boss Ferguson admits Upton Park has been a tough venue in the past and that prompted his decision to start with Giggs and Scholes.
Fantastic atmosphere

"We felt today, knowing that West Ham is always a difficult ground for us, that we should have the most experience we can," Ferguson told Sky Sports 1.

"Ryan and Paul Scholes have been here so many times and they know exactly what is needed here.

"Michael Carrick, Carlos Tevez and Rio Ferdinand are former players here and that also helps actually to handle the atmosphere.

"It was a fantastic atmosphere and they really get behind their team, and we've beaten a very good team today."

Edwin van der Sar set a new British league record after a 13th consecutive clean sheet and Ferguson praised the United keeper and his defence.


He added: "The clean sheets have been a topic, but it doesn't just change the emphasis on our game.

"I think today we've had some fantastic possession of the ball and the players we've got on the pitch are attackers - Cristiano, Dimitar, Carlos, Ryan and Paul Scholes, and Michael Carrick.

"What the back four have done is really focus and concentrate on their job. They've got pace and are quick and, of course, to have a goalkeeper like Edwin van der Sar is just fantastic

utd had alot of possession but hardly caused green any trouble,that for me was very disappointing

utd had only 3 shots on target

PHB

I thought Scholes has struggled in these sorts of games for years. Against these sort of midfielders, he's neat and tidy, but not really that penetrative. It doesn't help that Upton Park is pretty narrow. Nonetheless, it was by far a masterclass from him.

Giggs I think we all saw had a poor game bar his excellent goal.

Ronaldo was the most advanced of all midfield pretty much all the time. He recieved the ball on teh wings around the half way line about 10-12 times in that game, and each time, once he started running forward, there were only 2 people normally in front of him. The midfielders weren't busting a gut to get forward to support the attack, and it either ended up breaking down or going backwards. Rooney would have helped with that, his runs are smarter than most. And Evra woulda allowed Ronaldo more space for some magic. But the midfield have to provide something there too, otherwise we're just too one dimensional.

Our attack has been very blunted, but we're winning. I'm not complaining, we've been masacred by injuries in the past months, but we've come through it. You can't play beautiful football all the time, but at some point, we need to click if we want to win the CL [We can keep doing this and win the league]

Moments of individual magic and an amazing defence got us to the CL final last year, and most of those magics were from Ronaldo. I'm very wary about the Inter game with out attack in this sort of form. However I'm hopeful, that the return of Evra and Rooney will see our best team looking like this [with a big big question mark over the 2nd central midfielder]

---

VDS

---

--Brown---Ferdinand---Vidic----Evra---

---

Carrick---Fletcher

---

--Park

---

Rooney

---

Ronaldo-

---

Bebratov

---

If that team plays, I really think we should be able to beat Inter, but we are without a doubt light in midfield without Hargreaves. Scholes and Carrick is just too offensive.

Headshot

why fletch in the team,he's not going to bring a moment of brilliance that scholes would bring.

K4t

Headshot wrote: »

why fletch in the team,he's not going to bring a moment of brilliance that scholes would bring.

Because, you need an engine in midfield in a game aginst a top team like Inter. Scholes isn't that engine and Carrick is younger and fitter (and can make that killer pass). Fletcher when psyched up can play against anyone and come out on top.

Tbh, you could choose between Carrick or Scholes. Both are the same, but Carrick's stamina is better.

Headshot

K4t wrote: »

Because, you need an engine in midfield in a game aginst a top team like Inter. Scholes isn't that engine and Carrick is younger and fitter (and can make that killer pass). Fletcher when psyched up can play against anyone and come out on top.

Tbh, you could choose between Carrick or Scholes. Both are the same, but Carrick's stamina is better.

i can see your point about fletch but to say choose between Carrick or Scholes,
makes no difference

k4t theres a big difference,carrick is utds midfielder this season.
for me he has to play in the CL

way better player than scholes this season

(which i hate to say because scholes is my favourite player)

K4t

Headshot wrote: »

i can see your point about fletch but to say choose between Carrick or Scholes,
makes no difference

k4t theres a big difference,carrick is utds midfielder this season.
for me he has to play in the CL

Scholes on form is still better than Carrick (but Carrick is younger so can last the whole game). I agree Carrick has been superb for not only this season, but also last season and the year before. He was underestimated but has matured as a player and claimed a recurring role in Utd's midfield.

I think Fergie will go for the big game players against Inter. Park in for Giggs and Fletcher in for Scholes or Carrick. Fletcher and Park always play out of their skins in the huge games.

Headshot

that true about scholes but scholes hasnt been on form a long time

since the blurred eyes he really hasnt been the same
Edit:nearly forgot he suffered knee ligament damage too


still shows glimpses of brilliance thou

ntlbell

PHB wrote: »

---

VDS

---

--Brown---Ferdinand---Vidic----Evra---

---

Carrick---Fletcher

---

--Park

---

Rooney

---

Ronaldo-

---

Bebratov

---

If that team plays, I really think we should be able to beat Inter, but we are without a doubt light in midfield without Hargreaves. Scholes and Carrick is just too offensive.

vidic is suspended for it no?

Headshot

ntlbell wrote: »

vidic is suspended for it no?

yap your right ntlbell

just for the first leg

A7X

Headshot wrote: »

that true about scholes but scholes hasnt been on form a long time

since the blurred eyes he really hasnt been the same

still shows glimpses of brilliance thou

Yeah but those glimpses are getting fewer. Its a shame though, I would love to see Scholes back on form. As for Giggs, I really don't think he played well today. If it wasnt for the goal, which he brought around by himself, I'd be going mad about him. I just didn't feel he was on form at all.

I can't wait for evra to come back. It really affected Ronny. I think he shud of played more on the right so Rafeal could over lap him. Jos just doesnt know what to do in that situation IMO

MisterAnarchy

Headshot wrote: »

just for the first leg

Just:eek:
Huge loss ,United's best player this season.

Headshot

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Just:eek:
Huge loss ,United's best player this season.

couldve been worse he might have missed the whole inter game altogether

tbh vidic couldnt get away without some sort of punishment

its not too bad we have Evans as a great replacement or even Brown

redout

Headshot wrote: »

couldve been worse he might have missed the whole inter game altogether

He will miss the whole game but we should have for the 2nd leg.

A7X

redout wrote: »

He will miss the whole game but we should have for the 2nd leg.

Im pretty sure thats what he ment

ITT-Pat

Was just watching the repeat of the match on MUTV and I was 90% sure Giggs was offside for the goal

heres the best screenshots i could come up with. the first one seems to be just as/just before scholes played the ball and the second one seems to be just as/just after

Jazzy

ooof, tough. i dunno, i dont think it matters too much as if giggs didnt get that goal im pretty sure Utd would have scored anyway

Mitch Connor

ITT-Pat wrote: »

Was just watching the repeat of the match on MUTV and I was 90% sure Giggs was offside for the goal

heres the best screenshots i could come up with. the first one seems to be just as/just before scholes played the ball and the second one seems to be just as/just after

I don't think your black line is actually on the right axis, I thought he was just onside. At that close, he is onside as there is no way a linesman could be sure and benefit of the doubt should go with the attacker.

With regards the Inter game, no matter what players we put out, if the performance isn't a lot better than it has been recently they will stuff us.

Nalz

hmmmm

Dave!

As mentioned, your line is straight down whereas it should be parallel with the box. Looks onside to me.

Mitch Connor

ROCKMAN

Think with the Inter game in mind , the FA Cup game against Derby gives us a great chance to get some playing time into Brown , I cannot see him start ahead of Evans but the game comes at a great time Also Evra and Rooney and Fabio could benifit big time from a good run out.

Also think Fletcher is a must starter for me in the first leg ,think we will really need his work -horse like engine to be successful in that first leg, With the experence of Scholes and even Giggs been used in the re-turn home leg .

Mitch Connor

Personally, I would be hoping both Fletcher and Park play, and stick Park on the left to cover Maicon's runs down the flank. Playing Fletcher, Park and Carrick, along with Rooney's workrate up front, give Ronaldo and Berbatov the freedom to attack and create. Also, without Vidic at the back the defence will require that little bit more protection from the midfield.

Really worried about this game, can't help but remember them walking all over us in preseason.

eagle eye

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Which of my lines is straight?

Mitch Connor

eagle eye wrote: »

Which of my lines is straight?

1. What do you mean?
2. Are you Olli from Finland?

eagle eye

Mitch Connor wrote: »

1. What do you mean?
2. Are you Olli from Finland?

No, but I got it from the same place you did.;)

Theresalwaysone

Agree with Eagle Eye with the lines drawn. I think he was offside.

edit: Actually, I guess the angle of the camera could be the reason that the lines dont add up. If you looked down on it from above or at a 90degree angle like the linesman, it would be very close.

Mitch Connor

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Agree with Eagle Eye with the lines drawn. I think he was offside.

edit: Actually, I guess the angle of the camera could be the reason that the lines dont add up. If you looked down on it from above or at a 90degree angle like the linesman, it would be very close.

The lines do add up - it is the perspective resulting in a vanishing point (the two yellow lines) from which you can draw a line via the last West Ham defender.

Theresalwaysone

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The lines do add up - it is the perspective resulting in a vanishing point (the two yellow lines) from which you can draw a line via the last West Ham defender.

Yup, this is what I was trying to say via my edit.

_blank_

All these pictures with different coloured lines :rolleyes:.

Lads, is it really worth the effort ffs?

Game is over, goal was given, United won 1-0.

Again.

Spud83

PHB wrote: »

I thought Scholes has struggled in these sorts of games for years. Against these sort of midfielders, he's neat and tidy, but not really that penetrative. It doesn't help that Upton Park is pretty narrow. Nonetheless, it was by far a masterclass from him.

Giggs I think we all saw had a poor game bar his excellent goal.

Ronaldo was the most advanced of all midfield pretty much all the time. He recieved the ball on teh wings around the half way line about 10-12 times in that game, and each time, once he started running forward, there were only 2 people normally in front of him. The midfielders weren't busting a gut to get forward to support the attack, and it either ended up breaking down or going backwards. Rooney would have helped with that, his runs are smarter than most. And Evra woulda allowed Ronaldo more space for some magic. But the midfield have to provide something there too, otherwise we're just too one dimensional.

Our attack has been very blunted, but we're winning. I'm not complaining, we've been masacred by injuries in the past months, but we've come through it. You can't play beautiful football all the time, but at some point, we need to click if we want to win the CL [We can keep doing this and win the league]

Moments of individual magic and an amazing defence got us to the CL final last year, and most of those magics were from Ronaldo. I'm very wary about the Inter game with out attack in this sort of form. However I'm hopeful, that the return of Evra and Rooney will see our best team looking like this [with a big big question mark over the 2nd central midfielder]

---

VDS

---

--Brown---Ferdinand---Vidic----Evra---

---

Carrick---Fletcher

---

--Park

---

Rooney

---

Ronaldo-

---

Bebratov

---

If that team plays, I really think we should be able to beat Inter, but we are without a doubt light in midfield without Hargreaves. Scholes and Carrick is just too offensive.

I think you contradicted yourself there.

For the last two seasons (at least) United have played with two midfielders sitting behind the play. For the majority of those two seasons those two midfielders have been Scholes and Carrick.

The "problem" I believe Scholes has in these types of games is that he doesn't have the energy or engine to find enough space in the middle of the park. Which means he rarely gets a chance to turn on the ball and look up.

Secondly, yesterday we had no width on the right apart from Rafael trying to provide it. This meant that the center of the pitch was congested with Giggs, Tevez, Berbatov all in the same area and Carrick and Scholes not far off them, and with JOS on the same flank as Ronaldo it meant West Ham could keep doubling up on Ronaldo which they done a fantastic job of.

With Upton Park being a narrow pitch anyway (I believe) we made the pitch even narrower for ourselves with the team and tactics that went out on to the pitch. Even though we won the team selection IMO was wrong.

United always play the best with two wingers, yesterday we did not have that.

PHB

Being offense as a midfielder and getting forward aren't the same thing. Carrick and Scholes are passers of the ball, they are not defensive midfielders like Hargreaves and Fletcher.

Spud83

PHB wrote: »

Being offense as a midfielder and getting forward aren't the same thing. Carrick and Scholes are passers of the ball, they are not defensive midfielders like Hargreaves and Fletcher.

OK but I believe Carricks defense game is better that he is given credit for. IMO it is much better than Fletcher, its just more controlled and not as in your face.

eagle eye

Well on the match anyways, United did not look at all like a team that will run away with the league. But in fairness they came up with the 3 points again.

What amazes me is that after this game the whole forum went crazy with guys calling the league over because United barely beat West Ham.:pac: