Why I'm thinking of voting yes this time to Lisbon

K-9

O'Coonassa wrote: »

If Lisbon passes I will consider it an hostile act by the EU.

In all probability I'll declare war on them at that point.

When their oh so ridiculously shaped continent lies in smoking ruins then they'll be sorry.

They'll probably try this EU Army thingey out on US!

Scofflaw

Lovecat wrote: »

I don't understand why we're being asked to vote again. The government decided to put the treaty to the public vote, and the public voted no. Is that not enough? What's the point in putting something to a vote if you're not going to accept the outcome? Personally I think it rather undermines our voting system. I cast my first ever vote on the Lisbon Treaty and I want it to count for something. I didn't realise that the government's policy on voting was "If at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again".
I'm definately votinig no again.

I appreciate this is something of a puzzler for most people, but referendums answer a single question. They don't, can't, and shouldn't, be understood to change government policy.

The government wants to ratify Lisbon - that is government policy. To do so, they have to amend the Constitution, which in turn requires a referendum. All that the referendum asks is whether the people agree to modify the Constitution. If the people vote No, the government cannot modify the Constitution, and therefore cannot ratify Lisbon. That's where we currently are.

However, all of that is cannot. It has nothing to do with government policy, which remains, as before, to seek the ratification of Lisbon. If you don't pass your chemistry exam (good luck btw, and remember that principles beat facts in every area of science), will you give up? Will you say "it is not meant to be"? No, because you think that passing your chemistry exam is a desirable goal. Similarly, the government thinks passing Lisbon is a desirable goal, and that they have failed to do it does not mean they can no longer try to.

Usually, at this point, one says "but is the government not there to represent us?". The answer is yes, but representation doesn't mean accepting every passing whim of the people, or even doing exactly what the people want all the time. In theory, the government, having as it does access to a lot of expert advice and facts that the voter doesn't, and being concerned full-time with such matters, is in a better position to know what's going on, and sometimes its duty is to tell us that we must do what we don't want to do - to lead public opinion instead of following it. God knows, a little more of that over the last decade would have been welcome.

So, your first vote has counted - it has prevented the government from ratifying Lisbon - but the Irish government isn't bound by that no vote to "kill off" Lisbon. You have succeeded - for certain - in preventing its first attempt at ratification, but you have not succeeded in preventing any subsequent attempts at ratification. If you believed that was something you could achieve with a No vote, I'm sorry to say you were under a misapprehension, albeit a widespread one (and a highly publicised one). To kill off Lisbon, you need to vote No until it is no longer politically realistic for any Irish government to put ratification before the people, or for the EU to offer the option of ratification to Ireland.

If that seems unfair, all I can do is point out that it's part of the same rule set that means we have a referendum in the first place. To change that rule set, you will need...a referendum, which you will have to win.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

Lovecat wrote: »

And please don't tell me I was wrong to think those things. I don't care.

It's not a question of right or wrong. There's no one correct answer to whether Ireland should cede more or less sovereignty to the EU. There are plenty of decent arguments for both sides on complex issues like these. People really should feel swayed both ways but on balance more in one than the other. If you find yourself only agreeing with one side it's probable that you haven't properly got to grips with the other side's points.