new pension levy

baldieman

Hi,
Are teachers included in this new pension levy?

Mr. Incognito

Are teachers in the public sector- yes.

martinbrendan@e

Are the pension levy contributions tax deductible as are current contributions?

baldieman

Teachers already pay 3k - 4k p/a for their pension through superannuation, are teachers included in this new levy and do civil servants currently pay into a scheme ?

Time Magazine

Moved from Economics.

ytareh

Apart from ,"Theyre the government they can do what they like !" can anyone explain to me how they can legally break what I would consider a financial/legal contract I have entered into with them for a pension of half my retirement salary after 40 years etc and just claim I have to pay them twice as much now ?If the country's finances were booming would they have REDUCED my pension monthly cost!?Crazy.
Seriously, did it say in the small print somewhere that they could charge us whatever they want?Ive heard of DEFINED contributions and DEFINED benefits but never 'we'll make it up as we go along' contributions ...

baldieman

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Are teachers in the public sector- yes.

Teachers are already paying 3k - 4k p/a through superannuation, do civil servants currently contribute to a pension plan?

superlamb

can anyone tell me are an post staff included?

Toto Wolfcastle

Threads merged.

Oral Slang

Everyone in the public sectors included..

Freaking out here, huge mortgage, already lost 1% and now going to lose loads more money on this levy.

dml

I work at tertiary level and have serious concerns about the pension levy issue. I do agree that in the current economic climate, we all have to 'take some pain', but I feel that targeting the pension levy is underhanded and dictatorial. There has also been some sensational spin-doctoring going in trying to turn the general public against public service workers, which I think has largely been achieved by the careful underplaying of some important facts and the overemphasis of others. I would really appreciate it if the government could act in an open, honest way by putting all the facts on the table, not just those facts that will make them seem like the 'good' guys by penalising the 'bad guys' (i.e. us - public sector workers). A few issues need to clarified:

(1) Pay increases were made via benchmarking when it became apparent that the public sector worker's salaries were lagging significantly behind those of public sector workers. Unfortunately, as with most government processes, by the time the awards were being realised through benchmarking, the skids had started being put on some areas of private sector pay. But, did you ever hear any of the private sector whingeing about being paid more than the public sector workers? I don't think so...I certainly did not hear any such objections. But, this time period where the public sector worker was the poorly paid one has been conveniently forgotten. When I took up my own job 11 years ago, I had a lucrative private sector option available. I availed of the public sector opportunity at approx. 65% of the salary that I could have earned in the private sector. But, the public sector job/teaching was where my interests lay, so hence made the decision I did. So, for a few years, I was the underpaid one…

(2) The spin-doctoring going on around the pensions issue made it appear that public sector workers pay no pension contributions, which is a complete misrepresentation of the situation. To date, I have been contributing 5% of my gross salary to my pension (as is reflected in my payslip). So, I would appreciate the government acknowledging the fact that I am indeed currently (and have for the past 11 years) been making a contribution, instead of them trying to mislead the general public by ignoring this fact.

(3) The government is not giving me an option as to whether I want to (a) have a smaller pension or (b) contribute the additional amount now being levied. If I were in the private sector, such a choice would most likely have been mine. But, now I am being dictated to and have no choice in the matter. I have an inflated mortgage (thanks to a housing boom) for a 2 bed place and creche fees to pay. The government seems to have ignored the significant economic consequences that this sudden reduction in take-home pay will have for some. (They reduce our pay then lecture us about being ‘unpatriotic’ by going across the border to try to save a few euro so that we can better deal with changed economic circumstances).

(4) I find it highly suspicious that the government is choosing the pension scheme as the target here. And – guess what?! – the pension fund is the one being used to bail out a bank that is important only to large-scale businessmen and – guess who?! – property developers?! So, we – the public sector workers – are being used to bail out the property developers. So, is it not convenient to suddenly have all this extra cash (aka ‘pension levy’) to sink into a flailing and unviable bank called Anglo Irish? To pay solicitors fees when shareholders sue and the government has to defend the bank. How convenient to have more money for all of this?! Because, as long as the government has the money in pension funds, they earn the interest on the money and can use it (seemingly unwisely) to ‘invest’ in certain projects.

(5) The government is paying lip-service only when it comes to promises about taxing those with the mega incomes. But..this is being said to appease the public and I doubt will ever come into play. Then we have to watch while disgraced former heads of government agencies and banks are given golden handshakes along the lines of ‘I know you stuffed up, so here is a few 100 000 euro, please disappear quietly..’.

The government kept on promising ‘hard choices will have to be made’. I have yet to see evidence of this. As far as I can see, from pension levies, income levies, cuts in the early childcare supplement and cuts in overseas Aid…the government has made only ‘soft choices’. The easy way out has been taken once again.

A desperate situation altogether.

Were-rabbit

baldieman wrote: »

Teachers are already paying 3k - 4k p/a through superannuation, do civil servants currently contribute to a pension plan?

Yes that is a true reflection of and Yes they pay superannuation too.. The way the media and IBEC have played this one I think most non public sector workers were unaware that the public sector workers (Civil service, Teachers Nurses, Guards... etc...) contribute with no opt out option. Superannuation is deducted at source whether they work one day, one week, one year or full working life. They only reap full rewards should they complete the full term of service.
Public service workers also contribute with no opt out choice, to a Spouses and Childrens fund regardless of marital status or whether they have or ever will have children which is another 1K or so per year.

Then the 1% levy along with almost everyone else..plus the usual taxes..

More curious is the avoidance of the Government to reveal how many TDs actually took up the optional 10% cut at the last budget. IT WAS OPTIONAL! There is no transparency on this from a government so fond of that phrase. Friend who is an employment Solicitor explained this simply as you can not reduce an agreed employment term with out agreement between parties involved. So party whips cannot enforce only suggest or recommend taking the cut. Of course the other giant Pink Elephant in the room is the release by the government of the 17% pay increase they had deferred before due to public outcry in the smoke screen of the optional 10% salary cut!! Do we deserve a leader who thinks he is worth more than the president of the USA, no one has mentioned this imbalance in a while (his salary is higher!!).

Dont start me on the unvouched expenses....

The pension Levy put forward today is a salary Cut under another name they need legislation to change the law to enable them to carry it out as it is, what else will they change. They have made such a pigs ear in the last 6 months (or should that be 14months) do you trust them?

Mean while all those who have massaged the ego of the burties Brians etc.. have squired their profits from the Celtic Squib out of the country (while paying as little to the exchequer as they possibly can even when they are here) enjoy the life that they have become used to.

As for the scrapping the partnership pay increases, I do not believe one public service sector worker has believed since last November that they were ever going to be enacted. They were gone well before last night..

When in doubt squeeze the usual suspects...And its not those who earn over 75K a year..


Forgot the Bench marking.. that was what recommended our leaders needed a 17% salary increase!! Go figure that it is now the source of all that is wrong in public sector pay according to the same government..

cjmcork

hi - not sure if anyone answered this previous question, but is it taken out before or after tax?? I presume it reduces your tax liability???

Were-rabbit

Well said DML. Could not remember the percentage of gross salary and my understanding is that this proposal is in addition...

Were-rabbit

cjmcork wrote: »

hi - not sure if anyone answered this previous question, but is it taken out before or after tax?? I presume it reduces your tax liability???

My understanding from the Dail response by Brian C today was you will be taxed on the gross of the salary then it will be removed, so a double tax:mad:..

The Muppet

cjmcork wrote: »

hi - not sure if anyone answered this previous question, but is it taken out before or after tax?? I presume it reduces your tax liability???

I believe its to to be taken out after tax, you will still be paying tax on it AFAIK.

cjmcork

can they do that? isn't pension non-taxable?...........I pity those working in Payroll offices all over the country!!!

Sineadg

Does anyone know when this is due to come into effect? Immediately?

cjmcork

from 01 March..........

baldieman

Looks like CJ Haughey's back TIGHTEN OUR BELTS until it hurts.

dml

It will be interesting to see how this one will play out...

It is my understanding that as part of the benchmarking process that facilitated increases in education salaries, we had to undertake certain additional tasks in view of ‘increasing efficiencies’ within the system. This included additional (time-consuming!) admin tasks, availability for day, night and Sat teaching responsibilities, performance reviews, etc. Does this mean that if our salaries are now effectively decreased that we do not have to undertake all these additional tasks anymore….

I have calculated that between the income levy, pension levy (getting sick of the word ‘levy’…), only being able to claim med expenses at the lower rate of tax from this year, an increase in the threshold for the drug payment scheme for monthly medications, reduction in the early childcare supplement, I am effectively 20% down on my disposable income compared to this time last year. And yet, my childcare expenses are at the same level?!

cjmcork

baldieman wrote: »

Looks like CJ Haughey's back TIGHTEN OUR BELTS until it hurts.

except it never affected Charlie did it...............

Toto Wolfcastle

dml please stop using different fonts/colours incorrectly as your posts are extremely difficult to read when you do so. I have edited both of them. Thank you.

dml

Sorry....I had to resort to typing in WORD and pasting them over into here, as I lost a few attempts when the board timed out on me while I was typing my reply, and I was asked for log-in details again - and found that my whole post reply had been lost.
Could you possibly arrange that the login does not time out before a considered reply can be posted here? Then it would be easier to type straight into the reply section without risking losing the whole lot....

dml

I wonder whether the govt has included in its calculations the reduced stamp duty that it will receive when property prices further plummet on the back of this levy? Mortgages won't be as easy to obtain at the levels that we may have been approved at until recently due to reduced spending power = limited purchasing ability for property. This non-opt-out pension levy will have a negative knock-on effect throughout the whole economy.

Toto Wolfcastle

dml wrote: »

Sorry....I had to resort to typing in WORD and pasting them over into here, as I lost a few attempts when the board timed out on me while I was typing my reply, and I was asked for log-in details again - and found that my whole post reply had been lost.
Could you possibly arrange that the login does not time out before a considered reply can be posted here? Then it would be easier to type straight into the reply section without risking losing the whole lot....

It's a known issue that I can do nothing about. Perhaps check the Development forum for solutions?

Righto, back on topic!

martinbrendan@e

I asked the original Q re Tax Relief and so far I have seen and heard two different answers.
The Times stated that Brian Cowen statedthere is no tax relief i.e. straight off gross like the income Levy...

Dermot Ahearn on Prime Time stated that a person paying €3500 pension levy would in actual fact only (yes only) pay €2100 after tax relief.

Cowen states one thing, Ahearn the complete oppisite, it beggars the question, Does this Government have any idea what it is doing ?

AND I THINK WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT CUNUDRUM ?

jellybeans

how is this levy going to work is it taken out of our wages so we are paying more into our pensions???? sorry no clue yet

Were-rabbit

martinbrendan@e wrote: »

I asked the original Q re Tax Relief and so far I have seen and heard two different answers.
The Times stated that Brian Cowen statedthere is no tax relief i.e. straight off gross like the income Levy...

Dermot Ahearn on Prime Time stated that a person paying €3500 pension levy would in actual fact only (yes only) pay €2100 after tax relief.

Cowen states one thing, Ahearn the complete oppisite, it beggars the question, Does this Government have any idea what it is doing ?

AND I THINK WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT CUNUDRUM ?

I think its fair to assume they will take which ever is the greater amount. Brian C was asked to put the details into the Dail record yesterday so would go with his figures.

This is a Pay cut by the only way they felt they could impose one.

Legislation is required so a planed effect date depends on getting through the two houses.

Very amused by the out cry of the cut in our overseas aid.. we can not run our own country so we should be running others?
As for seeing the rewards on retirement how many of the public sector make it to a full pension Most Teachers etc I know only got on ladder in late 20s, and I have seen more staff leave with serious illness ( and a couple of heart attacks ) than make full service .

DML very good point re the additional admin work, Most of it can be frustrating as the in efficencies and duplication and triplication of certain records are so obvious.

Stabshauptmann

dml wrote: »

It is my understanding that as part of the benchmarking process that facilitated increases in education salaries, we had to undertake certain additional tasks in view of ‘increasing efficiencies’ within the system. This included additional (time-consuming!) admin tasks, availability for day, night and Sat teaching responsibilities, performance reviews, etc. Does this mean that if our salaries are now effectively decreased that we do not have to undertake all these additional tasks anymore….

Benchmarking was supposed to make the Public Sector comparable to the private sector.

At the moment in the private sector many people have stopped being paid for overtime, almost all have had their pay frozen and many have taken pay cuts.

If you want to be benchmarked to the private sector, it goes down as well as up.

TheDriver

The Irish Times said today that paye and prsi are calculated AFTER the new increased contribution is taken off

daithip

Lads, check out this link. Dept of Finance ready reckoner and explanation as to what you can expect to lose

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=5654

ateam

So will teachers strike?

TheDriver

why? in some ways, we should be paying for our pensions, its more the manner we have had this introduced to us along with lots more levies and plenty areas not even touched, e.g. cuts on Govt, junior ministers etc. At end of it all, we are being asked to pay properly for our pensions, not have our pay cut.

DanSolo

I can probably guess the answer to this thanks to the Fixed Term Worker legislation, but I guess the Banker's Levy (let's call it what it is) covers contract workers too? All that work getting us onto University pension schemes seems a bit wasted now...

positivenote

pay properly for our pensions??? what have i been doing for the last few years paying over 200euro a month towards a pension, and this is befor this 7.5% levy is added on top of this.

ytareh

"Pay properly" ???!!!I repeat the question again ,didnt I commit to a binding financial contract when I signed up for my pension?How the heck can they just decide to change the monthly contributions ?
Pay properly ?Ha!So who 'paid properly' for their house if they could afford one ?Those who bought 3 years ago at the peak of the market or those who bought 6 months ago at perhaps 50% less ?Same with cars ...The pension and job security were the Public Services' consolation for being 'sensible' and 'cautious' and chosing a career that might not be as lucrative but was 'steady'.Now the same 'high stakes rollers' who got us in this state want us to take the pain .
The obviously 'fairer' solution (although Im not saying its the magic bullet -Im no economist ) is an income tax increase for everybody.We alone ,are meant to making up maybe 65-75% of the shortfall of 2bn this year ...

J.R.

cjmcork wrote: »

hi - not sure if anyone answered this previous question, but is it taken out before or after tax?? I presume it reduces your tax liability???

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/PressReleases/2009/bl066calculator.xls

Go to this site & download the excel worksheet - enter yout annual salary and it will tell you how much this levy is going to cost you for the year - the figure generated is the amount you will lose in take home pay.....divided by 12 will let you know how much you will be down each month.

farreller24

The link being posted above doesnt seem to work correctly. when i put in a salary higher than my own, it seems that i am paying more on my lower salary than someone on a higher salary.

Can someone tell if this levy will be removed after the year when they have recouped their 1.2 billion they squandered?? I think i could just about cope if i knew there was light at the end of the tunnel.

As it is, after going to college for 4 years to get a degree i would now be better off working in the chemist i worked in through college as i would effectively come out with the same wage packet without a bloody pension and without the expense and hassle of travelling to my government job!!!

ytareh

Anybody who thinks this levy will EVER be removed almost certainly believes in Santa too....

baldieman

Remember the pensioners, they did'nt take it lying down over the medical card. Perhaps we all do need to take a hit on this, but the problem is, if we do take it on the lying down then we'll be seen a a soft target in the future.
So perhaps some kind of industrial action is required, unless the government spread this burden much wider?
After all the 2 billion they want to save is nowhere enough.

hunnymonster

DanSolo wrote: »

I can probably guess the answer to this thanks to the Fixed Term Worker legislation, but I guess the Banker's Levy (let's call it what it is) covers contract workers too? All that work getting us onto University pension schemes seems a bit wasted now...

seems so. It appears those of us on fixed term contracts have the worst of both worlds. No job security and having to pay additional money (via the pension levy) into a pension that isn't really a pension (defined contribution)....

farreller24

The thing that gets me is that there is no choice about whether or not you want to contribute at all, or the amount you contribute to your pension. This is discrimination against public sector workers. If they did this to just the nurses, just the teachers, or just the guards etc you can bet there would be huge industrial action. Why can't they just increases taxes for all. I wouldn't mind taking a paycut if everyone in the private sector was too. As it is myself and my partner are going to be down 400 euro a month. That's no joke when your paying for a mortgage.

I fear it's going to cause huge resentment within the public sector which will only have a negative impact on the efficiency of the public systems in hospitals/schools/government departments etc.

Lets all go on strike. See what happens then. The government needn't worry it's not as if any civil servants do anything other than twiddle their thumbs all day long anyway :rolleyes: so what difference would it make if we all stopped:rolleyes: I also think we should all call for Brian Cowen to take a huge pay cut!!!!

TheDriver

only problem with striking is that no one has any sympathy for public service at moment as IBEC as private sector totally against us where we apparently pay nothing towards our pensions and everyone is permanent etc. Cowen needs to do something personally, cutting Govt expenses, salaries etc etc. This levy is never coming off us, thats for sure, it would be easier to get a pork pie at a jewish wedding that see this levy lifted

corklady

all this talk of industrial action, how the private sector get paid so much more, how badly the public sector are being painted and how "we didnt cause the recession" makes me sick ....

I have a number of family members working in the public sector (HSE) and it seems to be the opinion of everyone in there that they have it so hard and it's all so unfair bla bla bla....
The funny thing is that none of them seem to realise how damn lucky they are. They have permanent jobs that they can NEVER be fired from (yes I realise this is a sweeping statement but it does seem to be a sweeping policy .... I personally know that they employ at least one raging alcoholic electrician, that not turning up for work for 3 days and contacting nobody won't even get you in trouble and I also know of a psyco that was offered a permanent contract after attacking and threatening to kill his boss). Can you think of a better place to work???

Oh yes and then there's the fact that they earn a lot more than the private sector. I'm an engineer myself (the proper kind ... the ones with degrees not the ones with "engineer" painted on the side of a van) and I know for a fact that a lot of the highly qualified engineers I know are getting paid less than teachers (many of them being married to teachers, so no, it's not hearsay). That's TEACHERS ... yes you heard me right ... the poor teachers who only do it as a vocation ... not for the money. How clever of them that they've convinced everyone of how badly off they are. And likewise for the nurses. ... remember at the time they were on strike that poor little nurse went on the radio to tell everyone of the injustice of her measly 45k pay after 2 years working? hmmm sad story indeed.

and as for the "we didn't cause the recession" people out there. well do you think the rest of us did? it may not have been the primary cause of the recession but the way public sector pay has been spiralling upwards in this country in recent years hasn't helped any bit. all these notions about how ye're "entitled" to another 10% increase and will go on strike if ye don't get it is the kind of thing that has helped get us into this situation. the unions have gone crazy with power and the government up until now were too afraid to do anything.

and so what do ye want to turn to now? the strike. of course. tried and tested and sure to get results right? the bus eireann workers' prospect of a strike I find hilarious ... they want to lay off drivers to cut costs .... so going out on strike is hardly going to help your situation (unless you're trying to get the redundancy). and as for the rest of ye .... ye should be glad ye aren't being made redundant or getting a 10% pay cut. They are the realities most people in the private sector have been facing or will be facing in the next year or so. So enough of this "we're the only ones paying the price". Ye're not. ultimately ye still have jobs which is more than a lot of people can say right now.

oliviah

Corklady,

Lots of us don't ultimately have jobs. Understand this. Lots of us have lost jobs and many more will in September. I will be on the dole soon.

I never claimed to do this job as a vocation. It's a profession. I also never claimed that it was badly paid. My friend on a make up counter gets paid more. My friend in a call centre gets paid more. I do it because I like it. I have yet to have any of my friends lose money or a job. Do I demand that they get their pay cut? No.

Divide and conquer?? Smokescreens??

Pay attention to what is really going on in the government please.

killbillvol2

corklady wrote: »

all this talk of industrial action, how the private sector get paid so much more, how badly the public sector are being painted and how "we didnt cause the recession" makes me sick ....

I have a number of family members working in the public sector (HSE) and it seems to be the opinion of everyone in there that they have it so hard and it's all so unfair bla bla bla....
The funny thing is that none of them seem to realise how damn lucky they are. They have permanent jobs that they can NEVER be fired from (yes I realise this is a sweeping statement but it does seem to be a sweeping policy .... I personally know that they employ at least one raging alcoholic electrician, that not turning up for work for 3 days and contacting nobody won't even get you in trouble and I also know of a psyco that was offered a permanent contract after attacking and threatening to kill his boss). Can you think of a better place to work???

Oh yes and then there's the fact that they earn a lot more than the private sector. I'm an engineer myself (the proper kind ... the ones with degrees not the ones with "engineer" painted on the side of a van) and I know for a fact that a lot of the highly qualified engineers I know are getting paid less than teachers (many of them being married to teachers, so no, it's not hearsay). That's TEACHERS ... yes you heard me right ... the poor teachers who only do it as a vocation ... not for the money. How clever of them that they've convinced everyone of how badly off they are. And likewise for the nurses. ... remember at the time they were on strike that poor little nurse went on the radio to tell everyone of the injustice of her measly 45k pay after 2 years working? hmmm sad story indeed.

and as for the "we didn't cause the recession" people out there. well do you think the rest of us did? it may not have been the primary cause of the recession but the way public sector pay has been spiralling upwards in this country in recent years hasn't helped any bit. all these notions about how ye're "entitled" to another 10% increase and will go on strike if ye don't get it is the kind of thing that has helped get us into this situation. the unions have gone crazy with power and the government up until now were too afraid to do anything.

and so what do ye want to turn to now? the strike. of course. tried and tested and sure to get results right? the bus eireann workers' prospect of a strike I find hilarious ... they want to lay off drivers to cut costs .... so going out on strike is hardly going to help your situation (unless you're trying to get the redundancy). and as for the rest of ye .... ye should be glad ye aren't being made redundant or getting a 10% pay cut. They are the realities most people in the private sector have been facing or will be facing in the next year or so. So enough of this "we're the only ones paying the price". Ye're not. ultimately ye still have jobs which is more than a lot of people can say right now.

This should be stickied as an example of what the Celtic Tiger created. Bitter little people whose only interest is in what everyone else has. This is the sort of person who drove up property prices because they were never happy and had to have a bigger house than their friends and family.

Imagine the nerve of a teacher to earn more than a "proper" engineer!

implausible

Not everybody in the public service is permanent! The majority of us have to work years in various schools before we get permanent and with the present cutbacks that length of time will get longer and longer.

Corklady, who is asking for a 10% pay increase???

gaeilgegrinds

My problem with this is that it's double that at least they'll need next year, this is but the start.

Hillel

Kaptain Redeye wrote: »

Benchmarking was supposed to make the Public Sector comparable to the private sector.

At the moment in the private sector many people have stopped being paid for overtime, almost all have had their pay frozen and many have taken pay cuts.

If you want to be benchmarked to the private sector, it goes down as well as up.

+1

Hillel

oliviah wrote: »

Pay attention to what is really going on in the government please.

That's patronising.