Public v Private : how clever of the Government

silverharp

PeakOutput wrote: »

and for what its worth i think our get out of jail free card is the euro and the eu the eu will not fail and as aresult we will not be allowed to. if we are one of the countries to come out of this recession faster than others we will be expected to help the others do the same if they come out of it faster than us they will be expected to do the same

The Euro is a bonus to be sure but its a hard task master as well. It will in relative terms be like living under a gold standard, debts will be compounding but income will be dropping and there is no faking it by inflating and pretending to pay everyone. Ireland has to come out of this lean and mean and this means rowing back on gov. policies where the income is not there to support the activities.

Daroxtar

PeakOutput wrote: »

and for what its worth i think our get out of jail free card is the euro and the eu the eu will not fail and as aresult we will not be allowed to. if we are one of the countries to come out of this recession faster than others we will be expected to help the others do the same if they come out of it faster than us they will be expected to do the same

so we let a neo-con backed economic hitman convince us to vote against europe, our one hope. youre probably right, we get what we vote for. i was in the yes camp for the record.
As for everyone contributing to the crisis, I dont consider wanting to put a roof over my family's head as being to blame for the current situation- thats what any parent would want.
Dont worry, i'll survive. We all will. its not the end of the world. But to see the fat cats go unpunished for blowing all our money makes me sick. I dont buy into the govt being clever, just sneaky and irresponsible

PeakOutput

Daroxtar wrote: »

so we let a neo-con backed economic hitman convince us to vote against europe, our one hope. youre probably right, we get what we vote for. i was in the yes camp for the record.

i wasnt in the country to vote but even if i was i dont think i would have as i simply didnt understand what was being voted on i do to some extent now and i will be in the yes camp

As for everyone contributing to the crisis, I dont consider wanting to put a roof over my family's head as being to blame for the current situation- thats what any parent would want.

of course but property is not the be all and end all of this crisis it jsut happens to be the most obvious as its the first to go when the banks get hit by uncertainty(which is what caused the banks to get in trouble by the way and is what the goverment is trying to get rid of by recapitalising the banks, they are not just handing out money to their 'mates' for the sake of it)

anyone who paid lower taxes, got pay increases / bonus's, could buy a larger house than they previously could have, were given a house by the goverment or were subsidised by the goverment, who moved up the social ladder(which is the direction the vast majority of people traveled in) or who even enjoyed the benefits of a very strong euro in out of euro zone countries benefited from this boom which in a large part existed because of the banks.

But to see the fat cats go unpunished for blowing all our money makes me sick.

you see thats the only thing i take issue with, besides the goverment who are these fat cats? they are people who have brought billions and billions of euro worth of business to our shores during the boom time. if the sub prime debacle in america had not of happened our banks would not be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are now. i dont understand the mentality that these ' fat cats' are getting away scot free. it is these fat cats who are letting people go from their business's because their business's are not making any money. it is these fat cats whose business's are closing daily. i dont feel sorry for them hell no but they have not somehow sucked the life and money out of our country for the last 15/20 years without us realising until now they are jsut the easy targets because they probably have large savings and will survive just fine with a few less business's.

RedPlanet

I don't think this government is that clever (public vs private).
But i do feel the scales are not balanced.
People in the private sector have zero job security and are haemorraging jobs at a panic rate.
Nobody has lost their job in the public sector.

I don't have the stats but I'll wager that the number of Planning Applications the past year are way down; yet how many people in the Planning offices have got the boot?

Liam Byrne

PeakOutput wrote: »

if the sub prime debacle in america had not of happened our banks would not be in anywhere near as bad shape as they are now

So you're admitting that they would be in a bad state, just not anywhere near AS bad ?.

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont understand the mentality that these ' fat cats' are getting away scot free.

You don't ? And yet you say.....

PeakOutput wrote: »

it is these fat cats who are letting people go from their business's because their business's are not making any money. it is these fat cats whose business's are closing daily.[/b]

Yup, ordinary people are losing their jobs and pensions, while......

PeakOutput wrote: »

they probably have large savings and will survive just fine with a few less business's.

All your own quotes......ergo, they're getting off scot-free.

And those involved in banking are getting bailed out without any small print or terms & conditions... [ the irony! ].....and those behind loaning themselves €100K haven't even been reprimanded let alone asked for the money back.

Debts by overstretched large speculators and construction companies likely to be written off, but no chance of Joe Soap - who had to pay money to the self-same speculators and construction companies to put a roof over their heads - getting his mortgage or loan written off.

Again, fat-cats and FF Galway-tent buddies getting off scot-free.

Darwin

RedPlanet wrote: »

I don't think this government is that clever (public vs private).
But i do feel the scales are not balanced.
People in the private sector have zero job security and are haemorraging jobs at a panic rate.
Nobody has lost their job in the public sector.

I don't have the stats but I'll wager that the number of Planning Applications the past year are way down; yet how many people in the Planning offices have got the boot?

An absolute urban myth, please educate yourself with the facts before posting...public sector employees ARE being made redundant. New recruits are on CID's or temporary contracts. 10% of staff in our place did not have their contracts renewed this year. People are being let go in county council's, schools, at third level you name it. There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a permanent job anymore in the public service.

*Honey*

RedPlanet wrote: »

Nobody has lost their job in the public sector.

Rubbish. I suggest you get your facts straight first. Some people I sat with last year, no longer work with me due to job losses.

I agree with the general point being made - however, I don't believe this Government has the ability to think up a cunning plan. It just happened that way.

How do we, as the population of this country, try to force a general election... and, more importantly, who else would you have running the show???

ixoy

Darwin wrote: »

There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a permanent job anymore in the public service.

Does that apply for those who joined the service years ago though? As in those who aren't on a contract. I'd have thought they were very secure.

Daroxtar

*Honey* wrote: »

How do we, as the population of this country, try to force a general election... and, more importantly, who else would you have running the show???

thats the million dollar question. we have no current viable opposition. lets face it, enda kenny is like some sterile pioneer pin wearing school master of old and most of the others are no better. the politicians we have in this country are completely removed from the public because most of them are high level professionals or they inherited their seats from their fathers so even during the worst of times in the 60s-80s they and their families had good jobs. we are a working class country and we need a working class govt.
the only way to force an election is to show up en masse in front of leinster house and not leave until we get it. but then we'd have the same boloxes running again and end up with the same parties, just sitting on the opposite side of the floor. we'd need to get independent candidates to run in opposition to every sitting td with a new mandate of replacing the nepotist system and an agreement to form a coalition of independents. that way nobody could hide behind the party to cover their own ineptitude.
i think we need a seperate thread for this

PeakOutput

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So you're admitting that they would be in a bad state, just not anywhere near AS bad ?.

i dont have to admit anything im not being accused of anything. i meant exactly what i said we would not be in anywere near as bad shape as we are without the sub prime issue.

PeakOutput wrote: »

it is these fat cats who are letting people go from their business's because their business's are not making any money. it is these fat cats whose business's are closing daily.[/b]

Yup, ordinary people are losing their jobs and pensions, while......


All your own quotes......ergo, they're getting off scot-free.

i made the actual point of the parts you quoted bold as you obviously missed them

losing their business's is not getting off scot free, making loss's is not getting away scot free

And those involved in banking are getting bailed out without any small print or terms & conditions... [ the irony! ].....

i could be wrong now but i could of sworn the recapitalisations were coming as preference shares? therefore the goverment gets paid back before anyone else gets anything that sounds like a term and condition to me and a pretty damn big one. the alternative of course was to let them fail and then pay back the guaranteed savings to the general public adding to the national debt which is what is being bitched about anyway

and those behind loaning themselves €100K haven't even been reprimanded let alone asked for the money back.

i assume you mean 100million not 100thousand. these people will be paying back their loans in full or they will be going bankrupt like anyone else. they did nothing illegal so they can be expected to do no more in fact id argue demanding the money back immedietely would result in more likely chance of forfeiture

Humria

Darwin wrote: »

There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a permanent job anymore in the public service.

At the rate we are going and the governments imcompetence we will be calling in the IMF and then there definitely will not be anything like a secure job. They will tell us to get rid of a large proportion of the public sector along with many other stringent changes and no amount strikes or public outcry will make a difference because we will need the money and nobody argues with the IMF. It's a frightening thought but it's where we are headed if we can't don't start taking control of the situation.

I wonder why people are so dismissive of the opposition. After 10 years of FF being in power you cannot automatically assume an alternative will be as ineffective. At least the oppositiion have some plans and measures that could help. Measures that the government wouldn't listen to because like an egotistical child Cowen has to do it his way.

Yes, the opposition is not supporting the government but they would be stupid because the government in incompetent. If the election had swung the other way I'd bet everything I own that FF would be shouting down the street that this wouldn't have happened if THEY had been re-elected and most people would believe them to.

gnxx

I'm sure that I read that preference shares are a non-runner. The ability to get other investors is restricted if preference shares are issued to the government. I think they had similar issues in the UK.

Also we don't know if the 100 million loan was legal or illegal. I think that this is subject to "an ongoing investigation".

PeakOutput wrote: »

i could be wrong now but i could of sworn the recapitalisations were coming as preference shares? therefore the goverment gets paid back before anyone else gets anything that sounds like a term and condition to me and a pretty damn big one. the alternative of course was to let them fail and then pay back the guaranteed savings to the general public adding to the national debt which is what is being bitched about anyway



i assume you mean 100million not 100thousand. these people will be paying back their loans in full or they will be going bankrupt like anyone else. they did nothing illegal so they can be expected to do no more in fact id argue demanding the money back immedietely would result in more likely chance of forfeiture

SkepticOne

Unshelved wrote: »

We're all so busy fighting among ourselves and finger-pointing that the likes of them can do what they like while it's the ordinary tax-payer who suffers.

The degree of suffering is different and private sector workers tend to, for the most part, quietly suffer. I think the reason they do so quietly is because, as a private sector worker, you justify your position based on what you contribute rather than what you need. Consequently, if you are put on short time or reduced wages, as tens of thousand have been lately, there is a feeling that you yourself are partly responsible.

I agree that those who are responsible are being let off the hook.

LightningBolt

PeakOutput wrote: »

i assume you mean 100million not 100thousand. these people will be paying back their loans in full or they will be going bankrupt like anyone else. they did nothing illegal so they can be expected to do no more in fact id argue demanding the money back immedietely would result in more likely chance of forfeiture

You're wrong. Anybody who provided false information (ie. signing a directors statement) in published accounts is in breach of company law.

silverharp

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont have to admit anything im not being accused of anything. i meant exactly what i said we would not be in anywere near as bad shape as we are without the sub prime issue.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Subprime was the first part of the financial system to break because it was the weakest , but the way you have stated your point you seem to be saying that asset prices and leverage was ok in Ireland but maybe due a little pull back that the banks could handle. I'd say no way, Irish property/land is in excess of 50% over vauled, the banks would have been brought down anyway.

Just to add this was a global credit bubble so Subprime was just one symptom of this

Fol20

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think its prevelent amongst certain younger people who genuinely dont seem to know that people join the worse paying private sector to be 'recession proof'.

I do not know one person over the age of 30 who begrudges the public sector their stabilty.

I do,my dad who used to be a teacher thinks this way as do i.

Pal

dresden8 wrote: »

What's this "We" sh1t paleface.

A lot of us saw which way things were going and didn't get ourselves up to our t1ts in debt. We still have to pay when the final bill comes.

its an attempt at sympathy with the borrowing classes.
I saw it coming too up to a point.
So much so that I took the profits on most of my investments during 2007.

The cynical me says those in the hole today are all mugs. Those who go round feeling sorry for themselves will dump on you quick as a flash if you mention their woe.

"Its the Bankers ! " they scream." they got us into this mess !"

my ass.

Its your own fault.

Actually I'm with you friend.
The 'WE' that apparently bothers you is simply a symbolic word for Irish society.
So know you know.

Unshelved

The cynical me says those in the hole today are all mugs.

While I do have some agreement with this, I think that a lot of people were led astray by property hype. Some people swallowed the "get on the property ladder quick"-type supplements in the papers week after week, panicked that they'd never be able to buy a house at the rate the prices were rising, and then leapt at a 100% mortgage for an apartment in Balbriggan or Aughrim or Navan. Who cares if it's miles away from where you want to live? Prices were only going to go up and then you could sell your house at a profit and move back to the city. You were on the ladder - hurray!The banks and the whole property industry (builders, estate agents and even property journalists) have to share some of the blame for this hysteria.

When we took out our mortgage about eight years ago we were repeatedly asked "is that all you want?". The inference being that they'd lend us more if we wanted them to, whereas we insisted on sticking to our budget.

I think that many of the people who will feel the worst of the backlash are those in their late 20's and early 30's who haven't lived through a recession and thought that the good times were going to go on forever. Many of us who endured the dark eighties and early nineties were a LOT more cautious and realised that everything is cyclical.

Maybe that's why there's such a backlash against the Public Service. A lot of us who went for it are of that generation - and took the "safe" option instead. I'm seeing a huge "What the f***!" reaction from younger workers who went for the high-earning Private Sector jobs and now can't believe that the economy can fall so far so fast with such disastrous consequences.

Is this the reason for this level of aggression from the Private Sector? That people swallowed the hype from all the vested interests and have now been left high and dry?

jaqian

steof1984 wrote: »

just a side note. Phase 2 of the Benchmarking report which only awarded increases to Po's , Sec Generals and politicians is to be paid so there all getting a 1.1% pay increase now while monetary its not much its the double standards that really bugs me

Just got an email from the CPSU (Civil & Public Service Union) stating that top civil servants (including TD's) are getting a pay increase, which will work out higher thsn the cut we were taking!!!

Email...
An indication of their unwillingness to take a fair and balanced approach was their proposal on Monday night to give a pay increase to Civil Service Principal Officers on €100,000 p.a. This scale automatically applies to TD’s.

This increase would have been greater than the pay cut a Clerical Officer on starting pay rates is being asked to pay.

I've no problem taking a cut if it helps the country get back on its feet but EVERYONE has to do their part and by that I mean the government. The Japanese could teach us a thing or two... everyone from their government down took a cut, here out arrogant govt don't think they should.

SkepticOne

Unshelved wrote: »

Is this the reason for this level of aggression from the Private Sector? That people swallowed the hype from all the vested interests and have now been left high and dry?

I don't think it is the reason, tbh. I think it is the attitude from some workers to the effect that they are owed a living regardless of whether the money is there. I think there's going to have to be some mass redundancies in the public sector before this attitude changes, unfortunately.

Boggle

Is this the reason for this level of aggression from the Private Sector? That people swallowed the hype from all the vested interests and have now been left high and dry?

No. This country has lost the plot in terms of cost of living and the biggest contributor to that cost is perceived to be the excessive cost of running the country and the corresponding generous payrises the govt gave themselves and the ps.

The result of this is that we can no longer compete internationally and so we are haemmoraging jobs left right and centre - hence over 320k on the dole and a potential (at an additional 10k per month) 430k on the dole come Christmas.

If i am right that means that there will be circa 1mil private sector employees left, who now have to carry almost one million people (between 380k ps and 430k+dole) on their backs through taxation. Then allow for the fact that of those left, approx 40% will be at minimum or near minimum wage and that leaves alot of pain for all.(top of my head figures so happy to be corrected)

So we need to act now to restore our competitiveness, no matter what it takes, or we may not have a country tomorrow.

Unshelved

If i am right that means that there will be circa 1mil private sector employees left, who now have to carry almost one million people (between 380k ps and 430k+dole) on their backs through taxation. Then allow for the fact that of those left, approx 40% will be at minimum or near minimum wage and that leaves alot of pain for all.(top of my head figures so happy to be corrected)

Public sector workers pay taxes too don't forget.

Plus benchmarking wasn't evenly spread across the board. Some sectors - university lecturers come to mind - received only 4% spread over eight years. That didn't even keep pace with inflation.

Times will be hard for everyone - especially for those who lost their jobs. It's really not the time for one sector to be having digs at another. Just as the Public Sector is shelling out this week, the Private Sector's turn will come soon.

When it'll be the turn of senior bankers, senior civil servants and government ministers God only knows.

irish_bob

SkepticOne wrote: »

I don't think it is the reason, tbh. I think it is the attitude from some workers to the effect that they are owed a living regardless of whether the money is there. I think there's going to have to be some mass redundancies in the public sector before this attitude changes, unfortunately.

the public sector are a lot like a spoilt child , they are so used to being spoilt , they whinge and moan and threaten to throw thier toys ( strike ) out of the pram if they dont continue to recieve special priveledge

Unshelved

the public sector are a lot like a spoilt child , they are so used to being spoilt , they whinge and moan and threaten to throw thier toys ( strike ) out of the pram if they dont continue to recieve special priveledge

Way to generalise! What's next? All single mothers are welfare spongers? All guards are on the fiddle? People on the dole don't really want to work?

If you want your anti-public sector arguments to have a bit more credibility then you'll have to rely a bit more on hard facts and a bit less on your own prejudices.

future_plans

Unshelved wrote: »

Times will be hard for everyone - especially for those who lost their jobs. It's really not the time for one sector to be having digs at another. Just as the Public Sector is shelling out this week, the Private Sector's turn will come soon.

Don't know what planet you've been on for the last year. The private sector is taking heavy hits on a daily basis....

Times will be hard for everyone? Time's will be a lot harder if the unions decide to strike. At the end of the day, that levy is still going into your huge pensions. Most Private Sector workers cannot afford such pensions.

Unshelved

And I thought that there were enough threads on this page with both sectors slagging each other off. Obviously not enough for some people.

future_plans

Unshelved wrote: »

And I thought that there were enough threads on this page with both sectors slagging each other off. Obviously not enough for some people.

Not slagging you off. A lot of my family and friends are in the pubic sector.

Unfortunately, I also know many people who have either lost their jobs in the last few months or have been told that they should expect the worst.

Just making a few points on your post.

AlanG

Please remember:
- in the private sector an incremental increase is considered a pay rise – the public sector don’t consider this a pay rise. Incrementals will still be paid over the next year.

- The people in the public sector who we paid to regulate the banking sector are just as much to blame for the recession as the bankers. Private listed companies are legally obliged to maximise share holder return – Public sector regulators are legally obliged to regulate the industry for the long term good of the economy. If the public servants did their job we wouldn’t be in this mess so don’t say “we didn’t cause the problem.”

- Unions should look after the weak in society but the PS unions are looking after the elite – high paid guaranteed jobs, great pensions and massive entry barriers to private sector workers with experience. They should be ashamed to call themselves socialists.

dresden8

AlanG wrote: »

- Unions should look after the weak in society but the PS unions are looking after the elite – high paid guaranteed jobs, great pensions and massive entry barriers to private sector workers with experience. They should be ashamed to call themselves socialists.

Imagine, me, an elite.

My ma will be so proud when I show her this.

djpbarry

Unshelved wrote: »

Don't forget who got us into this mess when the elections come around.

Indeed; let's absolve the electorate of all responsibility (again). It’s all the government’s fault (for whom the electorate voted).