36,000 Jobs lost yet mass imigration contines

paulg1770

i dont blame the immigrants they are just doing what any of us would do and go where the easy money is, its the do gooders and the PC crowd bending over backwards to help them thats the prob, our government hasn't got the balls to to stop them.
We should be like Australia, you get a one year visa with no help from the state and after that unless your skill is in demand your gone they dont want you and even when your skills are in demand its still a nightmare to get in.
Another thing I think is our government copies the english system which also dont have the balls to sort out their issues.

joenailface

I thought i was banned from this forum, apearntly not, time to get to work on that. You are all arguing about absolutly nothing.

1. Anyone who said 'immigration should be halted' pause for a moment, and consider how retarded you actually are.

2. I know irish people who are immigrating this month, guess where to, another country with a ****ed econemy

3. Anyone who said 'they come over here, live off our dole' may i please direct you to www.citizensinformation.ie please feel free to read up on how you will manage to live off other peoples hard earned money for the rest of your lives due to being retarded. pause and think about how retarded you are, if you paused already tonight go kill yourself.

and finally, our econemy is failing because it is a completely flawed system that is designed to fail, no amount of immigration or poor choices on a personal or governmental level will be able to change the fact that over time the monetary system is designed to fail. if you are currently thinking 'that's completely bull****' then you should have already killed yourself, but if you're still around may i direct you to wikipedia's page on national debt to start you on your journey.

unfortunatly i know this forum all too well so i shall expect a dick joke, a 'yore maw', someone (previous on your school debate team) who will have arranged a big long arguement with me citing points from the mayan drawings and oprahs autobiography and someone who will try to scrap together insults from what i said.

to all of you who agree or disagree, whether strongly or not, with what has been said in this post and to the OP that bans me, go **** yourself.

OPENROAD

joenailface wrote: »

2. I know irish people who are immigrating this month, guess where to, another country with a ****ed econemy

For some reason people seem to be missing this point or just ignoring it.

blackgold>>

mike65 wrote: »

Sure where did the Irish go in the 80s? Britain was in recession and had 3 miilion unemployed in the mid 80s.

yes and they treated them like ****ing dogs.

javaboy

joenailface banned.

deadhead13

blackgold>> wrote: »

yes and they treated them like ****ing dogs.

I want to london in the early 90's and in 10 years I didn't get one bad reaction or was I treated differently than anyone else.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bah. Why do people mention Irish going abroad when we complain about too much immigration here. It's not like the ones complaining ever emigrated to boston.

blackgold>>

deadhead13 wrote: »

I want to london in the early 90's and in 10 years I didn't get one bad reaction or was I treated differently than anyone else.

I guess you were the .5% bud.

book smarts

How many billions have been sent out of Ireland by foreign workers during the boom? Billions fueled by debt, that was all based on our future earnings, which have now evaporated.

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/06/18/look-what-we-have-done-for-ordinary-europeans

Let’s do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let’s say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let’s say €25,000. That’s a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year.

As we are now going into our fifth year of open borders, it is likely that Ireland has put back more cash in the pockets of poor European immigrants in five years that the EU has given us in 35 years.

javaboy

book smarts wrote: »

Let’s do a little calculation. We have close to 300,000 immigrants working from the new accession states here. Let’s say they are on a wage between the minimum wage of €17,000 and the average wage of close to €35,000 a year. So let’s say €25,000. That’s a total wage bill of €7.5bn per year.

As we are now going into our fifth year of open borders, it is likely that Ireland has put back more cash in the pockets of poor European immigrants in five years that the EU has given us in 35 years.

That's an extremely simplistic and imo flawed way of calculating things. The total wage bill of 7.5bn wasn't all paid by our government. Much of it would have been paid by private sector companies. Those workers would also have paid tax on their wages and VAT on their living expenses while they were here. There's also the fact that if some company was willing to pay them 25,000 a year, they must have been generating a reasonable amount of profit for the company. If they weren't net contributors, they wouldn't be getting those wages in the first place.

You make it sound like the government just gave 7.5bn from the tax take directly to a bunch of immigrants for no return.

tallaght01

blackgold>> wrote: »

I guess you were the .5% bud.

I was living in england in the 90s too. I really miss it, they were great times. Great people.

book smarts

javaboy wrote: »

That's an extremely simplistic and imo flawed way of calculating things. The total wage bill of 7.5bn wasn't all paid by our government. Much of it would have been paid by private sector companies. Those workers would also have paid tax on their wages and VAT on their living expenses while they were here. There's also the fact that if some company was willing to pay them 25,000 a year, they must have been generating a reasonable amount of profit for the company. If they weren't net contributors, they wouldn't be getting those wages in the first place.

You make it sound like the government just gave 7.5bn from the tax take directly to a bunch of immigrants for no return.

How much money have they sent out of the country? Considering a lot of them were working in construction, is that still a "net contribution"? Bad bank debts have paid for their wages, indirectly.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

trailerparkboy wrote: »

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Topics/PPSN/Pages/ppsn_all_month09.aspx

8,261 Immigrants applied for pps numbers in January the same month where 36,000 people lost there jobs, utter madness which is in no way sustainable.

My girlfriend got a PPSN number last november, she's Belgian... something wrong with that? Funny thing is, it only took her 10 days to get a job.

A lot of people seem to have double standards, it's ok for us to seek employment in other countries, but when people seek employment here we have a huge problem with it.

jimmycrackcorm

Martin Clever Tonic wrote: »

My girlfriend got a PPSN number last november, she's Belgian... something wrong with that?

A lot has happened since last November. Also I don't think anyone has a real problem with immigration, it's having to pay welfare tourism that people object to.

green123

Stekelly wrote: »

I know (personnally) of plenty of "asylum seekers" (inverted commas are because they arent asylum seekers at all and regularly go home for holidays)

this is the part i cannot understand
and i know it is true because i work some nigerians
how can they go home on holidays if they are aslylum seekers ?

kraggy

KerranJast wrote: »

There are jobs. Irish people are just too stuck up to take menial work. They'd rather sponge off the Dole and watch Ricki Lake than clean toliets.

Dole Ricki! Dole Ricki!

Highsider

KerranJast wrote: »

There are jobs. Irish people are just too stuck up to take menial work. They'd rather sponge off the Dole and watch Ricki Lake than clean toliets.

What a silly arguement. I think anyone would rather clean a toilet than watch Ricky Lake

Caoimhín

Fecking snowing again..

Damn snow, its racialist, always white.

BattyInNZ

I live in New Zealand. I've also lived in London and The Hague. I was in London when the last recession hit and lots of Irish people were out of jobs and getting the dole! Stop panicking - this too will pass - it's s h i t but so long as you keep your heads down and your bums up you'll get through it. Biggins - I wish I knew how to do the 'thank you' bit - someone tell me You've got to be balanced about this - immigration was a feckin' fantastic thing to happen to Ireland and no matter how much some would like it to rewind it's never going to happen. I loved knowing so many different people - I was the office manager for a well known chain of tourist shops in Dublin and it was just brilliant getting to know all of these wonderfully different people. But then, I hadn't always lived in Ireland and it was no big deal to me.

It's true that the EU system is a fair bit flawed - nobody should be allowed to immigrate to another country without proof that they can support themselves for at least six months - any of us who come to NZ or Oz (US?) know this - you can't get in unless you've got the Visa or if you come on a six month holiday visa you either have to have an onward ticket or proof of income. That's just sensible. I'm forever quoting this but I'm going to do it again anyway - Queen Beatrice of The Netherlands said "too much tolerance breeds intolerance" and that's true of any extreme. Too much PCness, too much right wingedness and all you do is lose your audience.

There's almost been a generation of people who don't know what it's like to have hard times - well now's your time to grow a backbone and stop bloody whingeing - you're not English - whingeing is not our national pastime. Australia is suffering too and if there's a job going and and you and an Ozzie are up for it you've got two shows :rolleyes:

asdasd

Australia is suffering too and if there's a job going and and you and an Ozzie are up for it you've got two shows

Since Australia controls it's immigration system completely it can turn off the tap in a recession, and employers favour Australians. Of course an immigration policy like that, one where we choose the numbers in a given year, and turn off the tap when we want to would make sense.

The original EU worked because Western Europeans dont emigrate. The difference income between Spain and Germany caused little immigration, the cultures are so different ( which tells us something about the European project anyway). Eastern Europeans immigrate en masse but nobody anticipated it - when the accession States were allowed into Europe it was racist to say mass immigration would follow - when mass immigration followed it was racist to oppose it, when immigrants were clearly doing jobs Irish people used it was racist to point it out and anyway jobs were growing, and now with a real net decline in jobs and continuing immigration - obviously a decline in jobs for Irish people - we still cant say the unsayable.

dey are turking our jobs.

Mark200

I didn't read through the 9 pages so sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been said....

But first of all saying 8000 immigrants applied for a PPS number doesn't take into account how many have gone home.

Second of all, I have a good Polish friend, and a good Slovakian friend. They've both been in this country for about 2 - 3 years, and I'm confident both would be able to spell immigration (not imigration) and continues (not contines). So maybe you should leave the country, and they should stay.

thelordofcheese

Mark200 wrote: »

I didn't read through the 9 pages so sorry if I'm repeating something that has already been said....

But first of all saying 8000 immigrants applied for a PPS number doesn't take into account how many have gone home.

Second of all, I have a good Polish friend, and a good Slovakian friend. They've both been in this country for about 2 - 3 years, and I'm confident both would be able to spell immigration (not imigration) and continues (not contines). So maybe you should leave the country, and they should stay.

Are they hot? cos if they're hot they can stay.

Mark200

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Are they hot? cos if they're hot they can stay.

They actually are, yeah

asdasd

They've both been in this country for about 2 - 3 years, and I'm confident both would be able to spell immigration (not imigration) and continues (not contines). So maybe you should leave the country, and they should stay.

Brilliant argument. Let's not stop the thread. The OP had a few typos/spelling errors.

End the thread now. there is no comeback.

Morlar

Whoever mentioned the TD's in the Dail being afraid of the PC crowd hit the nail on the head. Also I thought it was 360,000 unemployed not 36,000. Thats forecasted to be 500k by the end of the year which is not a great ratio of tax paying workers to unemployed.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

Whoever mentioned the TD's in the Dail being afraid of the PC crowd hit the nail on the head. Also I thought it was 360,000 unemployed not 36,000. Thats forecasted to be 500k by the end of the year which is not a great ratio of tax paying workers to unemployed.

36,000 in January I think.

Pub07

CiaranC wrote: »

For the bazzilionth time, you need two years PRSI contributions before you can sign on the dole. But dont let that get in the way of your xenophobic nonsense.

Is that for foreign workers or what? Because you need zero PRSI contributions to get Jobseekers allowance which is €200 a week.

K-9

Pub07 wrote: »

Is that for foreign workers or what? Because you need zero PRSI contributions to get Jobseekers allowance which is €200 a week.

You could check http://www.welfare.ie and see do they qualify?

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

36,000 in January I think.

We must be going for the record. In any event it is not sustainable. The pc parrot crowd need to take stock at some point and have a re-think on how sustainable that situation is. I really think that some of them never will. Its much easier to ask for cso studies to back this or that up or to say 'dey durk our jerbs' or something equally clever and funny.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

We must be going for the record. In any event it is not sustainable. The pc parrot crowd need to take stock at some point and have a re-think on how sustainable that situation is. I really think that some of them never will. Its much easier to ask for cso studies to back this or that up or to say 'dey durk our jerbs' or something equally clever and funny.

A lot of immigrants are leaving. I seen a link that showed immigrants were also losing their jobs at a higher proportion than the Irish but also had a lower proportion claiming welfare. That would back that up.

Having said that, if they have paid their tax and PRSI, why shouldn't they claim SW?

AnonoBoy

Can we make trailerparkboy a Mod for the politics forum? His grasp of economics and immigration is simply outstanding.

I for one think it will be a sad, sad day for this country when he leaves to go to Australia. We will lose one of the finest political minds of our generation - he who has such an appreciation of the finer things in life - fruit-flavoured cider, the Satanic Sluts and online poker - as well as a leaning so far to the right that he's practically horizontal.

trailerparkboy I salute you!

valdigre

Maybe 8k new PPS requests but no one said how many immigrants left this country and belive me, much more than actually came....
Huge amount of people left in December and many will leave this year, you can be sure about that.

I am a foreigner myself, work here as IT specialist, live my life here, pay taxes for benefits of those, who taking them, both Irish and others (not taking any benefits myself), I know your language, so... All immigrants are that bad?

Morlar

valdigre wrote: »

Maybe 8k new PPS requests but no one said how many immigrants left this country and belive me, much more than actually came....

I am one of "immigrants", work here, live my life here, pay taxes for benefits of those, who are not working (not taking any benefits myself), I know your language, so... All immigrants are that bad?

Did anyone say all immigrants are bad ? Get over yourself.

What is being talked about is continued high levels of immigration at a time when the numbers of our unemployed are skyrocketing and we do not have NEARLY enough jobs for Irish born people nevermind those from other parts of the eu/world. Re the earlier point I would agree that many immigrants are leaving, in my view the ones leaving would tend to be the more aspirational ones, the more skilled ones who are the ones we would have wanted to keep. There are plenty more who will stay on as our benefits/welfare system is far more generous than their own.

thebman

valdigre wrote: »

Maybe 8k new PPS requests but no one said how many immigrants left this country and belive me, much more than actually came....
Huge amount of people left in December and many will leave this year, you can be sure about that.

I am a foreigner myself, work here as IT specialist, live my life here, pay taxes for benefits of those, who taking them, both Irish and others (not taking any benefits myself), I know your language, so... All immigrants are that bad?

Yeah that's my job, your one of them! :P

Anyway thats fine as most people in Ireland can't work in IT since they don't know how to turn it off and on again without supervision

Boskowski

paulg1770 wrote: »

i dont blame the immigrants they are just doing what any of us would do and go where the easy money is, its the do gooders and the PC crowd bending over backwards to help them thats the prob, our government hasn't got the balls to to stop them.
We should be like Australia, you get a one year visa with no help from the state and after that unless your skill is in demand your gone they dont want you and even when your skills are in demand its still a nightmare to get in.
Another thing I think is our government copies the english system which also dont have the balls to sort out their issues.

So what you're saying is we should get out of the EU?
Or else we should should form some sort of alternate EU where every member-state simply applies not all the rules all the time but just the ones that seem beneficial to the group of people who seem to get their political education from 'The Sun'?

JP Liz

They need to put a quota or limit on the amount of foreigners into Ireland

Boskowski

asdasd wrote: »

The original EU worked because Western Europeans dont emigrate. The difference income between Spain and Germany caused little immigration, the cultures are so different ( which tells us something about the European project anyway). Eastern Europeans immigrate en masse but nobody anticipated it - when the accession States were allowed into Europe it was racist to say mass immigration would follow - when mass immigration followed it was racist to oppose it, when immigrants were clearly doing jobs Irish people used it was racist to point it out and anyway jobs were growing, and now with a real net decline in jobs and continuing immigration - obviously a decline in jobs for Irish people - we still cant say the unsayable.

dey are turking our jobs.

That's why the old EU members were allowed 'grace periods' with regards to immigration from the new EU members. These grace periods were optional though and our government chose not to take advantage of that because at the time they thought we needed these people to plaster our new houses and to serve our evening meals. Tough titty, can't have it both ways.

This discussion is a bit of a disgrace but it sure was going to happen the moment things weren't so rosy anymore...

Guy:Incognito

OPENROAD wrote: »

For some reason people seem to be missing this point or just ignoring it.

And you seem to be missing the point that they are not emigrating for the dole. Theres no issue with people movign around for work.

The issue is that the only reason Ireland is an attractice proposition to people at the min is because you can claim €204 a week in dole.

paulg1770

realcam wrote: »

So what you're saying is we should get out of the EU?
Or else we should should form some sort of alternate EU where every member-state simply applies not all the rules all the time but just the ones that seem beneficial to the group of people who seem to get their political education from 'The Sun'?

can you not read that's not what I said. Unless you can contribute to our country with a skill that will gain you employment you shouldn't be allowed in, same should go for Irish wanting to go to other countries.
Too many leeches and political correctness.

Mena

pipsqueak wrote: »

And shure why wouldnt they?


Get your pps number and go on the dole!!! 200 euro dole, rent allowance, childcare, med card. Do a few nixers and and bobs your uncle... You name they get it!! Great country ireland

Stekelly wrote: »

And you seem to be missing the point that they are not emigrating for the dole. Theres no issue with people movign around for work.

The issue is that the only reason Ireland is an attractice proposition to people at the min is because you can claim €204 a week in dole.

You need to be working for 2 years before you can claim the dole (Jobseekers benefit), so this is pretty much inaccurate. Those claiming JB/Dole are entitled to it due to paying their PRSI.

That being said, I don't dispute the fact that there is fraud in the system, from both locals and foreigners.

valdigre

Morlar wrote: »

Did anyone say all immigrants are bad ? Get over yourself.

What is being talked about is continued high levels of immigration at a time when the numbers of our unemployed are skyrocketing and we do not have NEARLY enough jobs for Irish born people nevermind those from other parts of the eu/world. Re the earlier point I would agree that many immigrants are leaving, in my view the ones leaving would tend to be the more aspirational ones, the more skilled ones who are the ones we would have wanted to keep. There are plenty more who will stay on as our benefits/welfare system is far more generous than their own.

The main point of the starter thread was there is many immigrants coming but at the end, there is more leaving than coming.

As for your point with the skilled ones leaving and those parricides staying, I wouldn't say so. Skilled one will always find a job here and those, that are not skilled either stay and take benefits or leave elsewhere for work.

Guy:Incognito

Mena wrote: »

You need to be working for 2 years before you can claim the dole (Jobseekers benefit), so this is pretty much inaccurate. Those claiming JB/Dole are entitled to it due to paying their PRSI.
.

I know perople who celebrated turning 18 because they could go start claiming money. They never worked (officially) a day in their lives.


There are plenty of long term unemployed who have never worked.

Morlar

valdigre wrote: »

As for your point with the skilled ones leaving and those parricides staying, I wouldn't say so. Skilled one will always find a job here and those, that are not skilled either stay and take benefits or leave elsewhere for work.

Skilled immigrants who want to work to build better lives will compose the bulk of the people leaving. They will go where the jobs and prosperity is. They were the ones who helped build our economy (large numbers of Poles etc) and were always admired for their work ethic.

Those who had no interest in working to begin with or were in lower paid jobs and now out or work are far more likely to stay and be on benefits here rather than in their home country as our benefits system is more generous than their own.

The option here isnt 'leave the EU' or 'continue the current unsustainable situation'. There are more subtleties to that - there is no rule which says the rules can not change. One quick way to cut this down would be to pay eu workers the same level of benefits in whichever eu country they go to as is paid in their home country.

There are other more creative ways of approaching this than to say 'what you mean leave the eu?' in a disingenous tone.

Boskowski

paulg1770 wrote: »

can you not read that's not what I said. Unless you can contribute to our country with a skill that will gain you employment you shouldn't be allowed in, same should go for Irish wanting to go to other countries.
Too many leeches and political correctness.

Where I was going with my reply was that in the EU everyone is allowed to move everywhere within the EU and seek a job there without restrictions (more or less anyway). That's why we don't call EU citizen immigrants to begin with.
We can't just restrict this all of a sudden to people whose skills suit us. Is like saying to someone from Galway that he can't move to Dublin 'cos he's an electrician and we already have enough of them in Dublin. Under EU law I have exactly the same employment rights in Ireland that you have (assuming you're Irish) and vice versa if you were coming to my country. We can only restrict immigration for people coming here from countries outside the EU.

Mena

Stekelly wrote: »

I know perople who celebrated turning 18 because they could go start claiming money. They never worked (officially) a day in their lives.


There are plenty of long term unemployed who have never worked.

That may be so, but these people you know are Irish. People like me, who are non-EU Foreign (legal) Economic Migrants cannot simply do this, we'd be laughed out the door all the way to the airport.

Both as an EU and Non-EU migrant you'd need the two years (remember, we're not talking about asylum seekers here) before being able to claim, at which point you've paid your PRSI and are entitled. The Non-EU migrants would generally be on a work permit and having lost there work, would, by and large, have to leave.

redarmyblues

say what you like about the irish working abroad. At least they never set off bombs in thier host country not not like the crowd coming here.

And all you pc guys should get a mac and get bigoted.

Mena

redarmyblues wrote: »

say what you like about the irish working abroad. At least they never set off bombs in thier host country not not like the crowd coming here.

And all you pc guys should get a mac and get bigoted.

Whao, stop the bus. What the hell are you talking about?

Boskowski

Morlar wrote: »

The option here isnt 'leave the EU' or 'continue the current unsustainable situation'. There are more subtleties to that - there is no rule which says the rules can not change. One quick way to cut this down would be to pay eu workers the same level of benefits in whichever eu country they go to as is paid in their home country.

There are other more creative ways of approaching this than to say 'what you mean leave the eu?' in a disingenous tone.

I doubt it very much that the current unsustainable situation was created by EU workers and immigrants and I also doubt it very much that the current situation could be rectified even if you could send them (including me) all home tomorrow.

I can't see benefits increasing to 200 Euro a week in say Bulgaria. But thats not because we're generous (well, we are, 200 is quite generous) it's because we're different from Bulgaria. I doubt it very much that a liter of milk costs 1.20 Euro and a wrapped sandwich 5 Euro in Bulgaria. A 200 Euro a week benefits regulation in Bulgaria would ruin the country in every way. We just happen to be at the high end of the cost-of-living scale up there with the Skandinavian countries and it's entirely our politicians fault that this happened. They let it happen together with profiteering and the never ending price hikes. So we get 200 a week and the Bulgarian guy gets - I don't know - 40 a week, but the idea is that this pays for more or less the same.

In our case it doesn't, it pays for more 'cos 200 is quite a lot I think.
There is people who are either unskilled or unwilling and for them the difference between the 200 a week and the money they'd get for doing a low skills job isn't incentive enough to actually do that job. So they arranged themselves with 200 Euro and the odd nixer and have found their ways to dodge all attempts by social welfare to bring them back to employment and live quite comfortably. And that's not going to get better if they reduce the minimum wage, only worse. In a way the dole is actually competing with low wage jobs.

But these people exist in every country and most of the time they are natives. Most of the time the people who are willing to leave their country for a better life are people that are willing to put in the hours for that better life. They go elsewhere to work hard. I'd say that covers about 90% of the EU workers. And I can't see all them mutating to unmotivated lazy dole spongers overnight now that the boom is over.

The only people that are really, really bad are people who come with the sole intention of working the system or just being a criminal. We'd get all great satisfaction out of it if we could get rid of them. But although their numbers is in the thousands I guess and they are a major nuisance and get therefore more publicity than they deserver in terms of what impact they have in state finances - they're not ruining the country either.

The country was ruined by fkn idiot politicians living the boom/rush and propagating same for everybody else and so we did. This country was in a frenzy for 10 years. We got rich and greedy and complacent and worst of all we thought this was somehow never going to end. Now the most ridiculous thing I keep hearing is government officials repeating themselves how revenue from stamp duty is down suchandsuch percent, and VAT from house sales is down suchandsuch and VAT & VRT is down suchandsuch when they try to explain how this all happened. It's so blatantly ridiculous that they all deserve to be publicly slapped for these statements. It's like a five year old wondering the day after christmas where todays presents are. I wouldn't get away with such thickness in my job.

That and the developers and the banks.

Now let's try not to become stupid racist bigots repeating rightwing nonsense on economy matters when cause and effect is so obvious and we're so guilty ourselves....

Sorry, got carried away and it turned into a bit of a rant I'm afraid...:D

Chucky the tree

I dont know why your worrying about all this trailerpark, with your new found gambling skills you should be minted.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055469396

IHATELIBERTAS

Mena wrote: »

Whao, stop the bus. What the hell are you talking about?

think he's being sarcastic