UNMARKED CAR SPEEDING PROCEDURE

paul_geo

Does anybody know what the procedure is for an unmarked car catching somebody speeding? I've had cars overtake me on two occassions, doing well over the speedlimit, only to see a car two spaces ahead turn on the blue lights. While I initially laughed at the thought of the poor timing - call it Karma, coincidence or just deserts, In neither instance did the garda car pull them in. Can the unmarked cars catch people for speeding and post out the points or do they have to pull them in?

L-M

I'm fairly sure they have to pull you in. But i don't think they can do you for speeding since they haven't got any proof. They can on the other hand do you for dangerous driving, driving without due care etc. etc.

Did you get caught? Lol

Seth Brundle

Some garda cars (marked and unmarked AFAIK) have Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR), cameras and other technologies meaning that they don't have to pull you over!

afatbollix

how do they prove whos driving so?

yes they have to pull you over...

L1011

anto-t wrote: »

how do they prove whos driving so?

yes they have to pull you over...

How does a rear-facing GATSO prove whos driving?

By sending an order for the registered keeper to identify who it was, thats how. That this is possibly being made incriminate yourself and hence possibly illegal is a matter for someone with a good lawyer and lots of money...

Stephen

They don't have to prove who's driving. When you get the fine in the post you can declare who was driving. If they won't admit it, the registered owner of the car will get done. That's how it works with gatsos.

edit: snap!

Holsten

They probably have more important matters at hand than some clown speeding.

robbie99

Perhaps the reason the Guards didn't pull in the speeding car was because there was an acknowledging quick flash of blue lights from the speeding car.

paul_geo

I know with the static cameras, you can declare who is driving after you get the letter in the post, so it's not really an issue. I think the issue is whether the new mondeos have the capabilities to identify your speed and register your numberplate and more importantly store it as proof?

tommmy1979

kbannon wrote: »

Some garda cars (marked and unmarked AFAIK) have Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR), cameras and other technologies meaning that they don't have to pull you over!

I didn't think ANPR was here yet...

L-M

tommmy1979 wrote: »

I didn't think ANPR was here yet...

It is, but it's not ANPR the same as England as far as i know. Very few cars have it atm though.

kraggy

kbannon wrote: »

Some garda cars (marked and unmarked AFAIK) have Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR), cameras and other technologies meaning that they don't have to pull you over!

Are you sure K? Do you mean the handheld cameras that the gardai hold and point out the window of their unmarked cars?

Also, what's the penalty for speeding? And how much faster than the speed limit would you need to be doing to end up in court?

stealthyspeeder

paul_geo wrote: »

Does anybody know what the procedure is for an unmarked car catching somebody speeding? I've had cars overtake me on two occassions, doing well over the speedlimit, only to see a car two spaces ahead turn on the blue lights. While I initially laughed at the thought of the poor timing - call it Karma, coincidence or just deserts, In neither instance did the garda car pull them in. Can the unmarked cars catch people for speeding and post out the points or do they have to pull them in?

Like a marked car, they have to pull you over, the ANPR will identify a car and if it stores a photo, that can at most prove you were in the vicinity of the police car at the time of the speeding allegation. However, to give you points, the unmaked Guardai cars and marked, need your license details.

Also on another note, if you are pulled over, the guard will often use an assumptive and authoritive tone in order to get you to acknowledge that you have been going above the speed limit. (If you have not been speeding) never ever admit to the guard at the roadside that there is even the slightest possibility that you were travelling above the limit, do not surrender you license in acknowledgement that points will be put on it. If you deny the offence, the burden of proof is on the guard to prosecute in court. If they have no evidence, other than a guards visual estimation, very small chance of it going to court and even smaller chance of it winning.

I was pulled over in November by a guard who insisted that I was going over the speed limit, I told him I wasnt and asked him to proove to me that I was speeding, he then proceeded to call me a liar and tell me how he had to go at 25 mph above the speed limit to catch up with me, I simply told him that he must have been a good bit behind me when he started!:D (he's now "keeping his eyes peeled for me"! after he let me away)

NBar

ANPR aslo has a video recording feature on it and alot of Traffic cars both marked and unmarked have it fitted now

stealthyspeeder

NBar wrote: »

ANPR aslo has a video recording feature on it and alot of Traffic cars both marked and unmarked have it fitted now

This is true, but unless the ANPR is calibrated to a callibrated speedometor car and a radar speed detection is also thrown in to the mix to prove the distance between the Guards car and speeders car is constant, I dont see how it could prove a speeding offence?

daRobot

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

This is true, but unless the ANPR is calibrated to a callibrated speedometor car and a radar speed detection is also thrown in to the mix to prove the distance between the Guards car and speeders car is constant, I dont see how it could prove a speeding offence?

In Australia about 5 years ago, I was driving in Queensland on a remote enough road, completely deserted in the afternoon.

Was doing about 30 mph over the speed limit, when a cop flew past me in the opposite direction (It was a one lane road). Thought nothing of it, until I see him 20 seconds later in my rear view with the blues flashing.

He came up to the car with some speed gun of some sort, that showed my speed. Couldn't believe it, he had the gun attached to the outside of the drivers window, and it could get the speed of cars in the opposite direction while he was driving.

This was 5 years ago, so the technology must be here now.

stealthyspeeder

The radar must have been calibrated to the car, which itself must have a claibbrated speedometer, the radar gun has to be outside the car (if it was inside the car, the glass would interfere with the reading) and correct me if im wrong on this but I think weather conditions have to be right to use radar on a mobile vehicle (i.e. no rain as this would also interfere with reading) which is grand for Austrailia, not so practical in Ireland. I also havent seen any radar guns protruding from any guardai cars (other than the handheld staionary ones!)

jedijonvtec

it states in our law that the speed gun doesnt need to be proven to work or proven to be calibrated correctly when challenged in court,

no syncing or devices is required. also anpr is only used in a few vehicles in dublin and its the same technology as england. same company supplies both devices.

cops here have had vascar in some cars for almost 10 years now and this can tell your speed when you are driving in front of or behind cops.

also when pulled by lone cop or cop without proof of speed. you still can be done, unless you have passengers in the car, where it'd be 2 on 1 in court. still he could be a prik and do ya.

speed cameras , guns , gatso's etc . none of these devices have to b proven to work for case to hold up. even if you were caught at 200mph

jedijonvtec

weather also doesnt affect the guns. its a laser. picks up cars through dense fog and any other weather associated conditions.

its only the fact that the cops are irish and have better things to be doing than getting wet trying to catch one person out every hour than the fact that they dont work in rain.

maddogcollins

ANPR in at least one unmarked car in ennis/shannon

kraggy

I'm confused.

What exactly is ANPR? I know it recognises plates but can a hand held gun have ANPR?

Last night I was driving along and was over the speed limit on Quencentenial bridge in Galway (big road, 2 lanes either side).

Got to the bottom and saw a squad car parked on a traffic island of the roundabout so broke hard. As far as I know, they use a handheld speed gun and point it out the window. When I got to the roundabout, the lights were red and so I had to stop right beside the traffic island on which the Garda unmarked car was parked. I had a look and noticed that the Garda was looking at me.

But they didn't stop me. Could the speed gun have a camera attached? Could I get points and a fine?

stealthyspeeder

jedijonvtec wrote: »

it states in our law that the speed gun doesnt need to be proven to work or proven to be calibrated correctly when challenged in court,

no syncing or devices is required. also anpr is only used in a few vehicles in dublin and its the same technology as england. same company supplies both devices.

cops here have had vascar in some cars for almost 10 years now and this can tell your speed when you are driving in front of or behind cops.

Im not saying its incorrect, but it sounds illogical, where in the law does it say that speed gun doesnt need to be proven to work or proven to be calibrated correctly?

The Radar would need to know what speed the moving guardai car was travelllling at in order to ascertain what speed the suspected speeders car is travelling at. The guardai car would need to be calibrated accurately and in working order (which would need proven by the checks the guards reularly perform) in order to provide this information accurately.

In order to perform the correct mathematical calculation (given the speed of the guards car and the time taken for the 120mph wave to reflect of the speeders car) without human error (which would be needed to stand up in court) the devices would need to be synced.

Vascar works but has to be over a set distance for a set time, which unless you are a careless driver who doesnt check his mirrors or the road in front, will never catch you.

jedijonvtec wrote: »

weather also doesnt affect the guns. its a laser. picks up cars through dense fog and any other weather associated conditions.

.

This is incorrect.

Its not Lasar when the car is moving. It can only be Radar as laser needs a stationary point from which the beam is projected.

Laser speed detection is significantly affected by adverse weather contions such as fog
http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/further.htm

jedijonvtec

well i was caught with a speed gun at 11 one night doin 85 in dense fog on motorway. thats how i know they still work in bad weather. got fcn off cop and went to try challenge decision.

i was in contact with my solicitor and he told me that the speed gun is presumed correct at all times , unless i can prove otherwise... the guards do not need to produce any evidence that the gun works, that it is calibrated or whether or not it displays in km or miles.

he said in his words that i had a better chance of winning lotto

jedijonvtec

I'm confused.

What exactly is ANPR? I know it recognises plates but can a hand held gun have ANPR?

not at the moment . anpr uses databases from cops , dmv and other sources in england to determine the status of every car that passes.

its more of a sleeper system that allows them to park up with a vehicle monitoring the road , and linking to another car or by using anpr vehicle.
it scans reg and checks against database . wont be used for speeding at the mo.

the cop was prob just gawking at your car out of nosyness

kraggy

So there's no camera attached to those speed guns and there's no camera situated in the car at all? If they didn't stop me I should be ok?

stealthyspeeder

kraggy wrote: »

So there's no camera attached to those speed guns and there's no camera situated in the car at all? If they didn't stop me I should be ok?

Fine and Dandy!

jedijonvtec

no. you should hear nought from them.

the guns on display what speed you were doing and they would need to stop you and issue a fcn for it to count, unless it was camera on tripod, which i doubt

speed cameras catch ya and automatically applies points and fine to registered owner , unless ya can get someone to take fall.

i reckon he never even checked your speed

Whitewater-AGS

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Im not saying its incorrect, but it sounds illogical, where in the law does it say that speed gun doesnt need to be proven to work or proven to be calibrated correctly?

The Radar would need to know what speed the moving guardai car was travelllling at in order to ascertain what speed the suspected speeders car is travelling at. The guardai car would need to be calibrated accurately and in working order (which would need proven by the checks the guards reularly perform) in order to provide this information accurately.

In order to perform the correct mathematical calculation (given the speed of the guards car and the time taken for the 120mph wave to reflect of the speeders car) without human error (which would be needed to stand up in court) the devices would need to be synced.

Vascar works but has to be over a set distance for a set time, which unless you are a careless driver who doesnt check his mirrors or the road in front, will never catch you.


This is incorrect.

Its not Lasar when the car is moving. It can only be Radar as laser needs a stationary point from which the beam is projected.

Laser speed detection is significantly affected by adverse weather contions such as fog
http://www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/further.htm

Anpr works like this when the Garda car is following your car and your speeding the observer in the car presses a button when your car passes a fixed point point eg traffic lights, road sign, esb pole ect, they then press the button again when they pass the same fixed point thus calculating your speed. which will be shown to you on a handheld device once stopped.

Also as stated the gardai do not need to show a handheld laser gun is calibrated as this is always accepted to be the case by the courts, there is case law to support this but i've not got it to hand.

And finally the gardai dont need your licence details at the side of the road when stopped they will just demand your name and address and get you to produce your documents to a Garda station within ten days.

stealthyspeeder

jedijonvtec wrote: »

well i was caught with a speed gun at 11 one night doin 85 in dense fog on motorway. thats how i know they still work in bad weather. got fcn off cop and went to try challenge decision.

i was in contact with my solicitor and he told me that the speed gun is presumed correct at all times , unless i can prove otherwise... the guards do not need to produce any evidence that the gun works, that it is calibrated or whether or not it displays in km or miles.

he said in his words that i had a better chance of winning lotto

Sorry to hear that, you might have not been speeding! it would take a massive courtcase for the law to be changed but it can and prob one day will.

It does seem a bit unfair that if a display shows a number on a screen and you can be prosecuted according to wheter or not this number is higher than allowed, the mechanisms behind the generation of that number do not have to be shown to be correct!

I personally think the ANPR is a great thing as it will allow the guards to target cars involved in crime and cars with no NCT or insurance rather than wasting their time catching minor speeders while some buck drives past with no insurance!

stealthyspeeder

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Anpr works like this when the Garda car is following your car and your speeding the observer in the car presses a button when your car passes a fixed point point eg traffic lights, road sign, esb pole ect, they then press the button again when they pass the same fixed point thus calculating your speed. which will be shown to you on a handheld device once stopped.

Also as stated the gardai do not need to show a handheld laser gun is calibrated as this is always accepted to be the case by the courts, there is case law to support this but i've not got it to hand.

And finally the gardai dont need your licence details at the side of the road when stopped they will just demand your name and address and get you to produce your documents to a Garda station within ten days.

Firstly ANPR = Automatic NumberPlate Recognition
You are talking about the Vascar method which I refered to earlier in the post which you quoted.

In relation to the infalibility of laser guns, I dont think this will be the case indefinately, however it will take a major court case to get the law changed.

In relation to the guards issuing whats called a producer, this is true but if they take license details at the side of the road, the automatic process of assumed guilt by the driver in question has been started and is much more difficult to stop the prosecution process and issuing of penalty points than it is to make a formal written objection at the station when producing your license.

Whitewater-AGS

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Firstly ANPR = Automatic NumberPlate Recognition
You are talking about the Vascar method which I refered to earlier in the post which you quoted.

In relation to the infalibility of laser guns, I dont think this will be the case indefinately, however it will take a major court case to get the law changed.

In relation to the guards issuing whats called a producer, this is true but if they take license details at the side of the road, the automatic process of assumed guilt by the driver in question has been started and is much more difficult to stop the prosecution process and issuing of penalty points than it is to make a formal written objection at the station when producing your license.

The laser gun issue wont change any time soon as i stated already there is case law relating to this already and it wont be changed otherwise the garda would have to bring the speed gun to court everytime to show its working correctly and that would mean less equipment on the roads.

now when issueing a fcps giving the garda your licence details on the road side does not mean your assuming guilt, as i already stated all thats needed is your name and address to issue a ticket. You do not assume guilt until you pay the ticket!