M73/72 Kerry Motorway

Stupido

What do people think about this proposal?

A motorway branching off the M8 at Mitchelstown, going along the N73 to Mallow (intersecting with the M20), then the N72 to Killarney

Geographically this would connect Kerry & North cork to the motorway network.

It would be shorter than upgrading the N21


Thoughts? (no economists please!!)

Stupido

Here is a map


The route is in purple

SeanW

Perhaps when the country is not broke ...

Chris_533976

When the N21 and N22 are (eventually) dualled almost fully, this will be totally unnecessary.

Stupido

You won't need to dual the N21 or N22 if you build the M73/72

It would be half the length, and take most of the N21 traffic & a good chunk of the N22 as well.

it would also link in with the N24 (which is to be upgraded to motorway/Dual Carraigeway) giving a lateral route across counties Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Waterford, Kilkenny and Wexford to rosslare

corktina

ok, first prob I see is that it is Tralee that needs the road improvements, not Killarney which will be connected to the M8 at Cork, most of this road is already done and the remainder planned.

Tralee is more orientated towards Limerick than anywhere else and thus needs a good road in that direction.

The first section to Mallow seems a good idea though (from my point of view in Kanturk) as that road is probably the countries most dangerous at the moment.

BluntGuy

Not in favour of this idea tbh...

The N73 and N72 are both awful roads, but replacing them with M? No... traffic must be around 5000 or 6000 in most parts. It's not really worthwhile.

I think the N73 between Mallow and Mitchelstown ultimately needs improvements though, it's a very dangerous stretch.

Pisser Dignam

An M72 wouldn't do much for Tralee, and its the largest town in Kerry. Besides, parts of the N21 and N22 are getting DC treatment, or badly need it, and when that's done there'll be even less point in considering an M72. Current policy seems fine.

Cian R

This wouldnt actually help Kerry that much as it wouldnt really connect Killarney with Cork and it wouldnt connect Tralee with Limerick. This would really only help Dublin-Kerry traffic

mysterious

Plus the population is very sparse on the M72 section. As compared to the N21 corridor.
The N21 needs to be upgraded to dual carriegway anyway. It's the Main road from Limerick as Well as Dublin the kingdom. Since it's already connected to the M7 and some of the N21 is already Improved. I think it's ludricous and downright absurd to abandon this and upgrade a ballymcjoe valley region between Killarney and Mallow ffs. That region is also very vertical if you ask me. The N21 is the most direct route to Dublin for the majority of Kerry. It's far straighter and the land is more easier to build over. The N69 is now a very dangerous route. Much of the traffic now uses the N21 as a safer alternative.

The N21 needs to be 2+2 to NCW. Been really optimistic I would prefer the whole way.

This is a crazy idea.

mysterious

Stupido wrote: »

You won't need to dual the N21 or N22 if you build the M73/72

It would be half the length, and take most of the N21 traffic & a good chunk of the N22 as well.

it would also link in with the N24 (which is to be upgraded to motorway/Dual Carraigeway) giving a lateral route across counties Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Kilkenny, Waterford, Kilkenny and Wexford to rosslare

Yes your talking a motorway been built in a undulating vertical terrain, that is one of the most sparsly populated regions in Munster. Then to connect the M72 with the M8 your talking alot of money. The M8 is shielded by the mountains to the west. The M72 would have to carve through this. For what to benifet the people in mid Cork and south west Kerry.

Your motorway idea is laughable. Upgraded N72 is ok, but not a motorway ffs.

If we were to go with your plan, what about Tralee Limerick traffic, what about the Shannon region access to Kerry, Galway, North of Ireland and so on? Will they still have to use a ****e N21? The N21 is far more direct and feeds more traffic than a M72 would.

Tech3

There is no doubt the N21 is the most direct route to kerry. When you mention a motorway and kerry in the same sentence you got to laugh.

No, but seriously the current N21 is a decent national primary route in Ireland apart from 1km stretches outside the towns of adare, castleisland and newcastlewest. When all four towns will be bypassed it will be a very good quality route. Traffic levels can be high going to NCW from limerick and it would be a good idea to add 2+1 when construction begins on the adare and NCW bypass scheme which also includes some dc at adare. Whenever that will happen

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

There is no doubt the N21 is the most direct route to kerry. When you mention a motorway and kerry in the same sentence you got to laugh.

No, but seriously the current N21 is a decent national primary route in Ireland apart from 1km stretches outside the towns of adare, castleisland and newcastlewest. When all four towns will be bypassed it will be a very good quality route. Traffic levels can be high going to NCW from limerick and it would be a good idea to add 2+1 when construction begins on the adare and NCW bypass scheme which also includes some dc at adare. Whenever that will happen

It should be High quality Dual carriegway from M20 to the east of NCW. Adare bypass could be motorway if the N21 merges directly onto a motorway. As motorway traffic is only allowed to enter and leave motorway. So it has to be built a motorway.

The remander of the route should be 2+2. I think it's possible it will be. Since 2+1 is scrapped. The N5 is getting this treatment for much of its length and it has half the traffic the N21 handles.

corktina

i dont agree with some of you that the idea is laughable.

The terrain on that route actually is not too bad, a bit boggy here and there but not at all mountainous...its the Blackwater valley as far as Rathmore...it cant be too bad, gradient wise as it follows the railway line.

yours truly

BallyMc Joe:(

Zoney

mysterious:

Castleisland-Abbeyfeale is certainly upgradable to 2+2 - there is enough width on the mainline for it, and space in places for the laybys in place of hard shoulder (as is planned for 2+2 - i.e. standard dual carriageway without hard shoulder as found in Northern Ireland and Great Britain).

Tralee-Castleisland is a similar profile of road.

I wouldn't bet on Castleisland bypass being anything other than S2 with hard shoulder, but again, this should be upgradable to 2+2 in the future.

Adare bypass will be dual carriageway of some sort due to current traffic volumes nevermind future ones - although maybe just 2+2 (the original plan was 2+1).

So just with those route sections, it is likely N21 will be 2+2 for the most part in the future - so why would you need this M72/73?

It is too early to know what's going to be built for Abbeyfeale-Adare, but it could well be 2+2.

Stupido

Just because there are existing routes does not mean that they are necessarily the best option for access to the area.

The new N6 travels much more north than the old N6. Why not substitute the upgrading of the N21 & N22 and build a new road that would do for both?

Also the road would open up much more areas (such as Mallow & Kanturk) and allow a better (and shorter) network.

If the government want their spacial strategy to work, then they need to lok at general access into geographical areas, rather than just using existing routes which developed in years past when enginering and other factors were much different.

Other areas where a similar approach could be taken are Donegal, and Mayo.

Zoney

Stupido:

Our primary routes are not at all badly distributed, and indeed they represent a reordering of the previous trunk routes, which were the really old historic routes. The N6 deviation is just a small blip - it seems that Loughrea had some representation that Athenry didn't. Now with the M6 things are simply being restored to the original more sensible route.

As regards the N21/N22, you forget that North Kerry is quite linked to the Midwest and Limerick, and needs good transport links there (and there is prioritisation - the N21 for example rather than N69). South Kerry meanwhile needs good links to Cork more than it needs them to Dublin. The current solution means South Kerry can also get access to the Midwest and Dublin via N22,N23,N21. Also the main centres in Kerry of Killarney and Tralee are linked up.

All in all, the logical and best solution for Kerry is to have the two routes of N21 and N22 - the former also serving West Limerick.

Pretty much all the concepts of rationalising our roads for upgrading and building less motorways (in the case of e.g. M8/M9) are nothing more than idle crayon-drawing on a map that give nice theoretical shorter distances but take no consideration of facts on the ground or the need for the primary routes in such a small country as Ireland to serve some towns that though small in a European context, are important in a regional and national context here in Ireland.

The new motorways already take about as much liberty as possible with deviations such as the M7/M8 (bypassing Abbeyleix by a substantial distance) the aforementioned M6 switch from Loughrea to Athenry, the M7 Limerick-Nenagh pretty much going direct quite a distance east from the existing road (albeit with a link road to Birdhill, plus the current N7 to be R445 has been extensively relaid), the M9 is not merely serving Waterford, but is realigned from the existing N9 to better serve Kilkenny (shorter N10).

The national road network is reasonably well laid out, and alternative routes provided (e.g. M8 or N25,M9 or N25, N30, N11) are a huge asset, not a burden. The only missing links are the substandard secondary route quality (with R road upgrades over the past decade, many are now better than secondary roads), and some "missing" secondary links between Limerick and Kilkenny, Carlow and Wicklow, and the arc between the M50 and the N52/N80 (although that "arc" is planned to be filled by the "Dublin outer orbital"). The N7 carries traffic for a vast swathe of the country, and though traffic volumes are relatively manageable (three lane motorway is only *now* needed from the end of the upgraded Naas Rd, to the M9 junction) it might be beneficial in the longer term to upgrade the N81 substantially out of Dublin, and link it to the start of the M9. The current M7 shows the weakness in fact of the model of minimising motorways and having some few trunk routes - any problems on the M7 affect a huge area of the country.

Irish and Proud

Stupido wrote: »

What do people think about this proposal?

A motorway branching off the M8 at Mitchelstown, going along the N73 to Mallow (intersecting with the M20), then the N72 to Killarney

Geographically this would connect Kerry & North cork to the motorway network.

It would be shorter than upgrading the N21


Thoughts? (no economists please!!)

Your plan follows a least cost to builder model (was used initially in France), which in theory sounds good, but your idea seems entirely focussed on linking up Killarney and Tralee (via N22). In that context, the N21, N22 and N72/73 would be all killed with the one stone, but IMO this is not a good plan - you need to consider Foynes, Aughinish Island, as well as the more densely populated West Limerick as opposed to the area surrounding the N72. Also, the Shannon ferry could become a more viable option for people moving between Kerry and Clare etc if the N21 was upgraded. Finally, Macroom on the N22 is crying out for a Bypass - apparently, congestion is chronic there, especially in the Summer Season.

Regards!

mysterious

Zoney wrote: »

mysterious:

Castleisland-Abbeyfeale is certainly upgradable to 2+2 - there is enough width on the mainline for it, and space in places for the laybys in place of hard shoulder (as is planned for 2+2 - i.e. standard dual carriageway without hard shoulder as found in Northern Ireland and Great Britain).

Tralee-Castleisland is a similar profile of road.

I wouldn't bet on Castleisland bypass being anything other than S2 with hard shoulder, but again, this should be upgradable to 2+2 in the future.

Adare bypass will be dual carriageway of some sort due to current traffic volumes nevermind future ones - although maybe just 2+2 (the original plan was 2+1).

So just with those route sections, it is likely N21 will be 2+2 for the most part in the future - so why would you need this M72/73?

It is too early to know what's going to be built for Abbeyfeale-Adare, but it could well be 2+2.

I imagine the Adare bypass would have to be HQDC since the traffic number are too great to allow any at grade junction's for traffic movement's there. On the Nra site it says dual carriegway for the Adare scheme and not 2+2. So I suspect it to be at least of simalar standard to the Ennis bypass or greater.

The whole route should be 2+2. It's one the busiest national primary routes in the country. If they have scapped the 2+1 I dont see why its cost saving and economical to build it 2+2.


The M72 is farce. The population there is vastly rural. I dont see the logic in routing a motorway towards a secondary road further away from the main popultion centres thus over neglecting a more direct Dublin kerry route N21.

If you look at the map, all of mid to north kerry including west Limerick would have to still use a neglected N21. N21 is also a shorter route. Whats the logic in the M72 other than the locals would have more acess too the m8

mysterious

Irish and Proud wrote: »

you need to consider Foynes, Aughinish Island, as well as the more densely populated West Limerick as opposed to the area surrounding the N72. Also, the Shannon ferry could become a more viable option for people moving between Kerry and Clare etc if the N21 was upgraded.

You also forgot the Tourist industry, Places like Ballybunion, ballyheighe, Dingle, Shannon estuary, Listowel and so on. They would need consideration too?? In summer thousands of tourist use the N21 to get to these places. A M72 would be inadequate to faciliate this traffic also.

Stupido

Not so!

An M72 would allow people to get into the general area.

The idea is not about linking centres of population, but ease of access into a region, thus allowing the small towns to grow, and making it attractive for people to move away from the east coast.

Ireland ain't a big place!! It shouldn't take more than 2 hours to get from coast to coast.

Amtmann

The M72 is a ridiculous, parochial idea. Sorry.

Stupido

How is it parochial?

Amtmann

I'm sorry, but this motorway you're proposing is preposterous. What would the AADT be?

I would ask you, which should come first: the big centres of population, or the motorway? Conventional wisdom says "the big centres of population"; but you would invert that and put the cart light years before the horse by first building a motorway in order to "grow" small towns. This is extremely specious (I'm being polite here).

What makes you think an empty motorway in Kerry would cause people to "move away from the east"? Seriously, what?

What sane person is going to say, "now that there's a motorway in Kerry, let's move there and build a new life, for now Kerry is an attractive place to settle."

It's nonsense.

Many Irish/Kerry towns - and it pays me to say this - have no bright, expanded future. The "logic" of dispersed settlement and many small towns that must each be made to "grow" is bogus, parochial, and costly.

Lastly, RE tourists: tourists driving to Kerry like the fact that there are no motorways there. It's actually one of the things that make the place appealing.

Pisser Dignam

Stupido wrote: »

Not so!

An M72 would allow people to get into the general area.

The idea is not about linking centres of population, but ease of access into a region, thus allowing the small towns to grow, and making it attractive for people to move away from the east coast.

Ireland ain't a big place!! It shouldn't take more than 2 hours to get from coast to coast.

Stupido, you're not listening to the answers you've been given here, by people who know more than you.

Getting into the "general area" is too wishy-washy. We've already got the M7 as far as Limerick so an M21 would be shorter, cost less, AND serve Limerick. Whereas your M72 doesn't serve Limerick or Cork.

Back to the crayons.

Tech3

Zoney wrote: »

mysterious:
I wouldn't bet on Castleisland bypass being anything other than S2 with hard shoulder, but again, this should be upgradable to 2+2 in the future.

The Castleisland bypass is going to be constucted 2+2 along the N21 side of the bypass, the link to the N23 kilarney will be single carriageway. Does anyone know how the 2+2 is faring on the N4 regarding safety issues thus far?

Here is a link to the Castleisland bypass thread for anyone thats interested:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055481893

serfboard

Sorry OP, I have to agree with all the other posters here. Priority is on the N21 & N22 as it rightly should be. Also, remember the National Spatial Strategy? Gateways of Limerick and Cork linked to hubs of Killarney and Tralee, in an attempt to grow critical mass and boost regional development.

I've travelled on the N72 - it is a brutal road, and it needs to be improved. I'll agree with that.

But your idea should never happen and will never happen. While it may suit yourself and some others, the numbers simply don't support it.

corktina

so poor is the N72 that I will revert to going to Dublin via Limerick (from Kanturk) when the M7 roadworks are complete, 10 miles further but quicker due to the fact it takes 30 mins + to reach Mitchelstown out of a journey of only 2 1/2 hours overall to the Red Cow.

Svalbard

We don't need lots of motorways in this country. Fact.

corktina

now THATS the truth.....good quality dual carriageways would suffice if they were to prove cheaper...(but they are harder to toll I guess...;)

Stupido

Aint no difference in the cost of HCDC and motorways

They are built to the same standard, take the same width of land and have the same amount of tarmac

Only difference is the restrictions on access that a motorway designation gives the road.


Likewise 2+2's