Premiership Draft - Knockout Stage Round 1 Discussion Thread

LuckyLloyd

Ok, lets begin with the draw:

Frisbee vs Necronomicon
RasTa vs Iago
whatawaster vs gonzovision
Mitch Connor vs janets on clubs
Bubs101 vs Melion
NekkidBibleMan vs ditpoker
Mr. Nice Guy vs Xavi6
shoutman vs Wreck

1st round byes:

Trippie
eagle eye
wardie
titan18
Eirebear
LuckyLloyd (I know, I know - rigged!)
bohsman
mayordenis

Process:

- I am going to create an individual thread for each matchup and link it in posts below;
- In each thread I will copy and paste the full write up by the team owner if available - or just their bare formation if it is all I can find;
- The thread will contain a public poll;
- Only votes from the owners and Eirebhoy will count towards the final result of each matchup;
- An owner is allowed one post in their own matchup thread in which they can discuss specific adjustments they could make to deal with their opposition / argue for why they think they match up well;

Voting criteria

- We are not simply judging as to which team would win a once off cup match played today;
- You should vote for the team that you believe would perform better over the course of an entire league season;
- Through basing player assessments on how much of an impact they had on the premiership as a whole - not necessarily on their peak abilities on their best days;
- As such, you should pay attention to the debate and clarification over the various criteria such as injuries, sample size, consistency, etc, etc;

Appreciated contributions:

- It would be nice if people could post here explaining why they voted in a certain way, discuss how both teams match up etc, etc;

Housekeeping

- In order to avoid clogging up the forum, I will put up four matchup threads + polls at a time, and wait until they have dropped from the front page of the forum before putting up more;
- Please do not post comments on the game in those threads - keep all discussion here unless you are an owner making their one adjustment post, thank you;


Oh and, don't forget to vote for yourselves!! I'll stick up the first four matchups in the next few minutes...


Matchups:

Frisbee vs Necronomicon

RasTa vs Iago

whatawaster vs gonzovision

Mitch Connor vs janets on clubs

Bubs101 vs Melion

NekkidBibleMan vs ditpoker

Mr. Nice Guy vs Xavi6

shoutman vs Wreck

Necronomicon

Good stuff LuckyLloyd. Mr Nice Guy vs Xavi is going to be a very close one, defintely two of the strongest teams.

Oh and a bye for yourself? I trust this has been recorded on a web cam? :pac:

Mitch Connor

coted for Necronomicon in the first game. just felt that overall his team was stronger and i don't think the formation Frisbee has picked with 3 at the back - having Niel as the central guy and two fullbacks as opposed to a player like Berg, or Brown, or Lescott who can play CB as well as FB (which i would say is important in a 3 man backline) is too weak for a seasons campaign. I think Frisbees formation allows too much space down the flanks without the strong central defence to deal with it.

Going forward I do think they have a slight edge on Necronomicon's side, but the defensive solidity of Necronomicon's side over Frisbees swings it for me.

Ste05

Can anyone vote on these, or just the participants??

Mitch Connor

Voted for RasTa in the second game. Didn't really want to cause Iago had put the effort into the right up, but i just can't look past the fact that i feel RasTa's side is considerable stronger in almost all areas, along with a better formation (3 at the back again....though it got better protection in this game)

Mitch Connor

Ste05 wrote: »

Can anyone vote on these, or just the participants??

just the participants, plus one other, can't remember who that is.

LuckyLloyd

Frisbee vs Necronomicon

RasTa vs Iago

whatawaster vs gonzovision

Mitch Connor vs janets on clubs

- Polls will close after 4 days;
- Results will remain hidden until they close to prevent bandwagon jumping;
- I would therefore encourage people to maybe wait a day or so before voting so that people can get an adjustment writeup in;


Anyone can vote if they like, but only owner voters and Eirebhoys votes will count towards final result...

Mr.Nice Guy

I would have liked an easier opener really. Xavi has a fine team.

I voted Necronomicon and Iago so far. I just feel Necro's team has a stronger foundation whilst I felt Iago merited a place in the next round due to his write-up.

whatawaster

Game 1 - voted for Necronomicon. Again i feel Frisbee's back three is very frail, there's no commanding presence there, and Berbatov, Ravenelli, Wiltord and Giggs have too much for them imo. I think Frisbee's team will score goals against most teams, but not enough.

Game 2 - voted for Iago. It was very close, but what swung it for me was the relative inexperience of Rastas side - Adebayor, Sagna, Walcott, Ballack and the injury proneness of Owen.

Bubs101

Although i like alot of his team Frisbee's defence is just too weak and Necromicon has alot of goals coming from his midfield.

Mitch Connor

went for whatawaster over gonzo's, strong team imo, plus the write up swings it for me. Not sure that I really rate gonzo's side and the lack of a write up to justify the side, selections and formation mean I couldn't raise a compelling argument for his side.

Bubs101

Think Mitch's team would take this. It's well balanced and I think Nelsen is a weak link for JAnets on Clubs

Mitch Connor

went for myself over Janets On Clubs. Obvious enough choice, obviously.

Though, I do think I have a better side, in all honestly. Janets' side is good, no doubt, but I think my side just edges it.

Necronomicon

I went for Mitch Connor, whatawaster (another two of the stronger teams in the draft I think) and I actually haven't voted yet on RasTa vs Iago - it's very close imo. I think I'll wait and see if RasTa does a write-up later.

eirebhoy

Mitch Connor wrote: »

just the participants, plus one other, can't remember who that is.

Me. The neutral with the deciding vote.

Easy one to start off.

Mitch Connor

eirebhoy wrote: »

Me. The neutral with the deciding vote.

Easy one to start off.

and a better poster to cast a deciding vote we could not have wished for. A poster of intelligence and charisma by the bucket-load.

eirebhoy

Bubs101 wrote: »

Think Mitch's team would take this. It's well balanced and I think Nelsen is a weak link for JAnets on Clubs

Wouldn't say it's well balanced. They'd wanna hope they keep the ball because I wouldn't fancy that midfield to defend well. Play for player his team wins it but I still think they need some sort of ball winner in midfield. Arteta, Lampard and Alonso all need that type of player in their team.

eirebhoy

- Please do not post comments on the game in those threads - keep all discussion here unless you are an owner making their one adjustment post, thank you;

Oops. will remember that from now on.

eirebhoy

I've already voted Mitch sorry.:o

Ah I think your team will sail through this round.

Iago

Mitch Connor wrote:

Voted for RasTa in the second game. Didn't really want to cause Iago had put the effort into the right up, but i just can't look past the fact that i feel RasTa's side is considerable stronger in almost all areas, along with a better formation (3 at the back again....though it got better protection in this game)

I disagree

You should also consider that even though it's down as 3 at the back in the write up thread Boateng successfully played at centre-half for a couple of years and can easily drop in to form a 4-4-2.

I also think the team is capable of playing a 5-3-2 with Beckham/Leonhardson and Malbranque as attacking full-backs, but I'd question the real defensive effiency there as well as the impact on both players as attacking threats.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Voting criteria

- We are not simply judging as to which team would win a once off cup match played today;
- You should vote for the team that you believe would perform better over the course of an entire league season;
- Through basing player assessments on how much of an impact they had on the premiership as a whole - not necessarily on their peak abilities on their best days;
- As such, you should pay attention to the debate and clarification over the various criteria such as injuries, sample size, consistency, etc, etc;

If we take the above into consideration, and specifically the piece I've bolded I think my team is significantly stronger than Rastas;


Reina v Kirkland ; While I like Kirkland as a keeper I really don't think he's anywhere near the same class as Reina

Watson v Sagna ; As mentioned in my write up, Sagna hasn't had anywhere near enough game time to argue that he has had a significant impact on the premiership. Has he the potential? Certainly, but this wasn't about potential.

Unsworth v Evra ; Evra is a much better player than Unsworth, no complaints here.

Woodgate v Carragher ; Again while there's a lot to like about Woodgate I think Carragher is miles ahead of him from a talent point of view even ignoring Woodgates injury problems.

Upson v Boateng ; I actually think this is pretty close. Upson is a rock at centre half and would cause any forward problems. Boateng is relentless and consistent, has great positional sense (which Upson sometimes lacks) and has more than proven himself in the premiership.

Overmars v Beckham ; Overmars was a great player, but he's nowhere near the class of Becks.

Ballack v Leonardson ; Although I don't think Ballack is reproducing the form he has shown he's capable of, he is a better player than Leonardson and would cause significant problems.

Butt v Essien ; At his peak I believe Butt was a better player than Essien, but what Essien gives you is options. I'm unsure as to who comes out on top here to be honest.

Walcott v Malbranque ; Again ignoring Walcotts injury problems, he simply hasn't had enough game time to have a significant impact on the premier league. Malbranque is a seasoned professional and offers a defensive role which Walcott lacks as well as a real threat going forward. Again potenially Walcott could far outstrip him, but that's in the future.

Cole v Owen ; Two incredible goal scorers, both would make most teams on their day. Owens impact at Liverpool was huge and to be fair his injuries have prevented him having the same impact at Newcastle.

Heskey v Adebayor ; Personally I really don't rate Adebayor, so any comments I make would be biased. Again if you look at consistency and presence, and take into account the very specific role I want Heskey to play I think I come out on top.

Now given that we are looking at a season rather than a once off game I won't compare my centre-halves with Rastas forward line but I'm confident that my attacking options would break down a defence quicker than his. I think his main weakness is that he's picked two very attacking full-backs who haven't got the best positional sense in the world, and he hasn't covered that with Walcott & Overmars. As a result I think he's going to concede a lot of goals from counter attacks when players are out of position.

I'd also be concerned with the sheer volume of injury prone players in the team, even though it's not a main consideration you would have to be worried with Kirkland, Woodgate, Walcott & Owen all in the same eleven.

Bounty Hunter

Pity my votes wont be counted in this, having only just missed out on this ive followed it the whole way and now forgetting only Eirebhoy was inc have voted as follows despite liking some players/managers from the opposition:

Necronomicon
RasTa
whatawaster
Mitch Connor

would love to see these games for real

ctrl-alt-delete

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

would love to see these games for real

Might be possible to do so with Championship and Football manager games

would have been a good idea

wardie

This reminds me I forgot to do a write up for my team. Will do it tomorrow.

RasTa

No internet so can't do my writeup. I
n work atm. I thought this was about players at their peak and injuries don't come into it?

Frisbee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- Only votes from the owners and Eirebhoy will count towards the final result of each matchup;

Can you see who voted for who?

Because 24 of us +1 for Eirebhoy

Yet two of the threads already have 31 and 26 votes...

shoutman

I would of preferred you to play 4-1-3-1 looking to hit opponents on the counter. But as that is not the case I think Necronomicon has this one.

shoutman

Made my vote in the first match.

Maybe it would be an idea to let the contestents talk about strategy for the given match before people cast their votes. I would think that my team layout might change depending on the opponents, so it would be a bit of a bummer if half the draft had voted before I gave my thoughts on the opposition and vice versa, obviously too late to do it for round one, but maybe for future rounds or people could just wait till contestents post in the match threads?

Mitch Connor

shoutman wrote: »

Made my vote in the first match.

Maybe it would be an idea to let the contestents talk about strategy for the given match before people cast their votes. I would think that my team layout might change depending on the opponents, so it would be a bit of a bummer if half the draft had voted before I gave my thoughts on the opposition and vice versa, obviously too late to do it for round one, but maybe for future rounds or people could just wait till contestents post in the match threads?

the votes are to be based on a league campaign, not a one off game.

Voting criteria

- We are not simply judging as to which team would win a once off cup match played today;
- You should vote for the team that you believe would perform better over the course of an entire league season;

shoutman

But during a league campaign you would change strategy given your opponent no?

Mitch Connor

shoutman wrote: »

I was waiting for you to post before deciding frisbee. I was hoping you'd say that Dublin would play cb from the off. I just don't think three at the back with a dmc will work against the firepower which necronomicon has. Giggs, Willtord, Ravenelli and Berbatov are capable of causing some real problems. Yes, you have two of the best full backs in the league, but carsley can not drop back as a DC when he has Poyet to worry about.

I would of preferred you to play 4-1-3-1 looking to hit necronomicon on the counter. But as that is not the case I think Necronomicon has this one.

Also I think maybe in future people shouldn't vote until the contestents get to lay out their game plan for the given match?

not supposed to be commenting in these threads. however:

Voting criteria

- We are not simply judging as to which team would win a once off cup match played today;
- You should vote for the team that you believe would perform better over the course of an entire league season;

it is NOT a one off match between the two you are supposed to base your vote on so adaptation to the specific opponent doesn't make sense.

eirebhoy

Iago wrote: »

Butt v Essien ; At his peak I believe Butt was a better player than Essien

Definitely wouldn't agree with that tbh. imo when fit Essien is up there with the most influential midfielders in the world. I certainly never rated Butt at that level.

Mitch Connor

shoutman wrote: »

But during a league campaign you would change strategy given your opponent no?

but you are not going to play that one opponent in every game. the vote is to be based on which team would preform the best over an entire season.

If people want their formation variations to be taken into account, they should have included these in the write ups. If the people didn't do a write up, unlucky.

Quint

I've no idea what the hell this thread is, but I think I just read the most ridiculous statement on the soccer board:

Butt v Essien ; At his peak I believe Butt was a better player than Essien, but what Essien gives you is options. I'm unsure as to who comes out on top here to be honest.

Essien is 100000000000000000000 times better than Butt! I hope that was a joke!

shoutman

That's fair enough mitch, i've edited my post, it would not of changed my mind about that match anyway I suppose.

Bubs101

eirebhoy wrote: »

Definitely wouldn't agree with that tbh. imo when fit Essien is up there with the most influential midfielders in the world. I certainly never rated Butt at that level.

Not to mention that Butt can't only be judged at his peak (especially since it came at international level)

Just on Frisbee's post justifying his defence. His keeper is the best without a doubt but his defence would be butchered in the air and his claims that Dixon is the best right back ever, Winterburn's a top 3 left back and Lucas Neil's a top 10 centre back at the moment are a little outragous

Frisbee

Bubs101 wrote: »

his claims that Dixon is the best right back ever, Winterburn's a top 3 left back and Lucas Neil's a top 10 centre back at the moment are a little outragous

For me Dixon is the best RB to play in the Premiership.
For me Winterburn is top 3.
For me Neil is one of the currently playing top 10.

I'm not gonna call your opinions ridiculous.

Bubs101

Frisbee wrote: »

For me Dixon is the best RB to play in the Premiership.
For me Winterburn is top 3.
For me Neil is one of the currently playing top 10.

I'm not gonna call your opinions ridiculous.

I wasn't trying to be offensive it's just that he only ever got 22 caps for England facing competition from other Premiership players, Winterburn only has 2 caps once again only facing Premiership based competition and I don't think Neill deserves a place among the likes of Carvalho, Vidic, Laursen et all but that's just personal opinion. The Caps however were the opinion of a few different English managers

Mitch Connor

Frisbee wrote: »

For me Dixon is the best RB to play in the Premiership.
For me Winterburn is top 3.
For me Neil is one of the currently playing top 10.

I'm not gonna call your opinions ridiculous.

with a 3 man backline i really do think your two full backs need to be capable of playing centre back themselves, or there will be too much space. Neither of your fullbacks can do that.

Eirebear

ooooooooohhhh...i completely forgot about this...team write up coming soon! sorry!

eagle eye

When did Lucas Neill become a CB Frisbee?

Nalz

eagle eye wrote: »

When did Lucas Neill become a CB Frisbee?

Lucas Edward Neill (born 9 March 1978 in Sydney) is an Australian football (soccer) player who is the captain of West Ham United, and most often plays at right back or centre-back. He is a regular member of the Australian national team and was a member of the Australian squad which competed in the 2006 FIFA World Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Neill

eagle eye

Trilla wrote: »

Lucas Edward Neill (born 9 March 1978 in Sydney) is an Australian football (soccer) player who is the captain of West Ham United, He is a regular member of the Australian national team and was a member of the Australian squad which competed in the 2006 FIFA World Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Neill

Well done googler:rolleyes:

That wiki entry need to be corrected to the following

'and most often plays at right back and occasionally at centre-back'.

Lucas has covered there on the odd occasion in the past but his primary position is at right back.

Nalz

eagle eye wrote: »

Well done googler:rolleyes:

Why do you think I looked it up? Cas i knew you were incorrect. Its only the past 3 seasons if even that he's been more regulary at FB. He's played his fair share in both positions.

googler my ass.

eagle eye

Trilla wrote: »

Why do you think I looked it up? Cas i knew you were incorrect. Its only the past 3 seasons if even that he's been more regulary at FB. He's played his fair share in both positions.

googler my ass.

Are you joking, he played full back at Rovers for most of his time there, only occasionally playing in the centre when we had injuries.

He played in a back three for Australia alright but thats just a couple of games and he played on right of the back three.

Nalz

eagle eye wrote: »

Are you joking, he played full back at Rovers for most of his time there, only occasionally playing in the centre when we had injuries.

He played in a back three for Australia alright but thats just a couple of games and he played on right of the back three.

Blackburn Rovers
Neill played his first game for Blackburn in September 2001 against Sunderland A.F.C. and scored his first Blackburn goal later that month against Bolton Wanderers F.C.. Neill is a combative, versatile player. He has played in all defensive positions during his professional career....Neill was an integral member of the Australian squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, wearing the 2 jersey. He started all four games in the position of centre-back.

http://www.gfdb.com/Player.3829.Lucas-Neill.aspx


think they played 4 at the back too to be honest


according to this site hes just a CB, which is wrong. Dunno about the site tho

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/spieler/3826/lucas-neill/profil.html

and here

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/transfertalk,,blackburn-want-lucas-neill-back,67145

He played at FB more often but he's often played at CB.

Now you can call me a googler

Its not like a Gary Neville or Corluka situation where he filled in the odd time, he played plenty of games there
Right - end of all that, FB alright but you cant say he's not a CB either...

eagle eye

Trilla wrote: »

Blackburn Rovers
Neill played his first game for Blackburn in September 2001 against Sunderland A.F.C. and scored his first Blackburn goal later that month against Bolton Wanderers F.C.. Neill is a combative, versatile player. He has played in all defensive positions during his professional career....Neill was an integral member of the Australian squad for the 2006 FIFA World Cup, wearing the 2 jersey. He started all four games in the position of centre-back.

http://www.gfdb.com/Player.3829.Lucas-Neill.aspx


think they played 4 at the back too to be honest


according to this site hes just a CB, which is wrong. Dunno about the site tho

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/spieler/3826/lucas-neill/profil.html

and here

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/transfertalk,,blackburn-want-lucas-neill-back,67145

He played at FB more often but he's often played at CB.

Now you can call me a googler

Well I'm a Blackburn for a long time and I remember Lucas Neill playing for us, and he played as right back and was superb tbf in that role. We had John Curtis there who was very solid but he got injured and Lucas replaced him and spent his whole time in that position with us. As I said he did played the odd time at centre when we had a lot of injuries.
Now he was with us for six or seven years I think, and I don't think he has played at CB too ofen for West Ham.
So thats a long time and a lot of games at full back. Most of his career in fact, so basically the information you are getting there is rubbish.

Iago

Quint wrote: »

I've no idea what the hell this thread is, but I think I just read the most ridiculous statement on the soccer board:


Essien is 100000000000000000000 times better than Butt! I hope that was a joke!

Excellent, so enlighten me on why you think that is the case?

Is it because he has won more premiership medals?
Is it because he had played more games?
Is it because he is a member of a team that has swept all before them?
It it because he has more international caps?
More international goals?
More premiership goals?

Remember we are talking about players in respect of their impact on the premiership, so how is Essien stronger than Butt in this regard?

eagle eye

Iago wrote: »

Excellent, so enlighten me on why you think that is the case?

Is it because he has won more premiership medals?
Is it because he had played more games?
Is it because he is a member of a team that has swept all before them?
It it because he has more international caps?
More international goals?
More premiership goals?

Remember we are talking about players in respect of their impact on the premiership, so how is Essien stronger than Butt in this regard?

Well I personally believe that Essien is world class, and Butt never reached that level.
While Butt had some good times at United, he was not a starter there. His time at Newcastle has not been exceptional by any means, if you remember he spent time on loan at Birmingham. He has put in some good shows for United while he was there and also at Newcastle but I have never rated him near the standard of player that Essien is now.

Iago

eirebhoy wrote: »

Definitely wouldn't agree with that tbh. imo when fit Essien is up there with the most influential midfielders in the world. I certainly never rated Butt at that level.

again as mentioned in the game thread I'm curious as to this standpoint.

Nicky Butt was a first choice center midfielder for a team that won 5 premier league titles, 4 FA cups and a European Cup, all while he played an average of 29 league games a season during those years. In addition he was named "best player of the World Cup 2002" by no less than Pele and picked up 39 international caps.

Ignoring international level he has played 398 premiership games, scoring 40 goals and contributing 50 assists. As opposed to Essien who has played 93 games with 10 goals and 12 assists.

In terms of impact on the premiership, and position in overall players rankings I think Butt is miles ahead of Essien.



edit: Edited to say that I personally don't believe it was a coincidence that it was 3 seasons before United won a trophy after Butt left in 2004 and wasn't adequately replaced in the centre of the park. Which isn't a million miles away from what's happening with Arsenal at the moment.

Iago

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I personally believe that Essien is world class, and Butt never reached that level.
While Butt had some good times at United, he was not a starter there. His time at Newcastle has not been exceptional by any means, if you remember he spent time on loan at Birmingham. He has put in some good shows for United while he was there and also at Newcastle but I have never rated him near the standard of player that Essien is now.

Well there're two questions here...

1) If we go by the spirit of the draft "who has had the greatest impact on the premiership"?

2) How much of a regular was he at United?

I don't think anyone can disagree that Butt has had a greater impact than Essien in the history of the premiership.

And as to the second question, I've posted in the discussion thread that Butt played an average of 29 league games a year helping united to 5 premier league titles, 4 FA cups and a European Cup which in my opinion is hardly the statistics of a bit part player. Butt like Irwin is one of the most under-rated members of the United squad that dominated the 90's in England.

RasTa

Iago wrote: »

Well there're two questions here...

1) If we go by the spirit of the draft "who has had the greatest impact on the premiership"?

2) How much of a regular was he at United?

I don't think anyone can disagree that Butt has had a greater impact than Essien in the history of the premiership.

And as to the second question, I've posted in the discussion thread that Butt played an average of 29 league games a year helping united to 5 premier league titles, 4 FA cups and a European Cup which in my opinion is hardly the statistics of a bit part player. Butt like Irwin is one of the most under-rated members of the United squad that dominated the 90's in England.

The greatest United midfield pairing was Keane and Scholes.... Essien is a better player then Butt. I wouldn't hold butt as having a high contribution factor to our success in the 90's