Premiership Draft - Knockout Stage Round 1 Discussion Thread

eagle eye

Iago wrote: »

Well there're two questions here...

1) If we go by the spirit of the draft "who has had the greatest impact on the premiership"?

2) How much of a regular was he at United?

I don't think anyone can disagree that Butt has had a greater impact than Essien in the history of the premiership.

And as to the second question, I've posted in the discussion thread that Butt played an average of 29 league games a year helping united to 5 premier league titles, 4 FA cups and a European Cup which in my opinion is hardly the statistics of a bit part player. Butt like Irwin is one of the most under-rated members of the United squad that dominated the 90's in England.

Well I'm not surprised he averaged 29 league games per season, but I'd be surprised if the minutes played added up to anymore than 14 games as he was regularly used as a 70+ minute substitute.
The trophies won are irrelevant, that just means he was part of a squad that won them.
I'd actually say Phil Neville had a bigger impact than Nicky Butt at United. And again I'd have Essien ahead of him.

eirebhoy

I can only find start stats from his last 5 seasons at Man Utd but anyway;

99/00 - 21 premiership starts
00/01 - 24 premiership starts
01/02 - 20 premiership starts
02/03 - 14 premiership starts
03/04 - 12 premiership starts

John O'Shea has started a good few more games than that in the last 5 years;

03/04 - 32
04/05 - 16
05/06 - 34
06/07 - 16
07/08 - 10

Now I know they're different periods and O'Shea is the ultimate utility player but I don't rate O'Shea highly at all and he's also won a few trophies.

Butt has a played a load more premiership games than Essien but I think Essien has been a lot more infuential on a per game basis. I think Essien has played enough premiership games now to be compared on that basis compared to someone who might have been a one season wonder.

eagle eye

Your wording is what I'm very interested in here. When you say starts, does that mean he was actually selected to start the game or that he played at some stage during the game, because I'd find it hard to believe that Nicky Butt actually started on the pitch in that many games for United.

Iago

eirebhoy wrote: »

I can only find start stats from his last 5 seasons at Man Utd but anyway;

99/00 - 21 premiership starts
00/01 - 24 premiership starts
01/02 - 20 premiership starts
02/03 - 14 premiership starts
03/04 - 12 premiership starts

John O'Shea has started a good few more games than that in the last 5 years;

03/04 - 32
04/05 - 16
05/06 - 34
06/07 - 16
07/08 - 10

Now I know they're different periods and O'Shea is the ultimate utility player but I don't rate O'Shea highly at all and he's also won a few trophies.

Butt has a played a load more premiership games than Essien but I think Essien has been a lot more infuential on a per game basis. I think Essien has played enough premiership games now to be compared on that basis compared to someone who might have been a one season wonder.

First off I'd like to say I'm pretty impressed that I was able to make a coherent argument after coming home from a night on the tear

To get to the subject of Butts appearances, he had 7 seasons where he was first choice in in midfield...
Season League Apps
94/95

---

22
95/96

---

32
96/97

---

26
97/98

---

33
98/99

---

31
99/00

---

32
00/01

---

28

During that time they won 5 premier league titles (96,97,99,00,01) 2 FA Cups (96,99) 1 European Cup (99) If we extend it to 2004 he played 21 games at the end of his United career and added another FA cup medal to his haul.

In my opinion Butt was a key member of that team, as evidenced by the games above, and as such has to be rated as one of the best midfielders in terms of impact on the premiership. Especially when you consider that he was up against Keane & Scholes for a start during those years, although Scholes was a forward for some of them.

Iago

eagle eye wrote: »

Your wording is what I'm very interested in here. When you say starts, does that mean he was actually selected to start the game or that he played at some stage during the game, because I'd find it hard to believe that Nicky Butt actually started on the pitch in that many games for United.

During the 7 seasons I mentioned above he averaged 24 league starts a season. That's no mean feat in a United team that was sweeping all before them.

Iago

RasTa wrote: »

I wouldn't hold butt as having a high contribution factor to our success in the 90's

Honestly, and competition aside, I've no idea how you can hold that position.

I've posted the stats for the games he played, which was 75%+ in the time he was there.

I've posted the number of starts he had during that time which is 60%+.

So given that we won so much, and he played a part in the vast majority of games, how can you say he didn't have a high contribution factor?

eagle eye wrote:

Well I'm not surprised he averaged 29 league games per season, but I'd be surprised if the minutes played added up to anymore than 14 games as he was regularly used as a 70+ minute substitute.

I've shown that's not the case.

eagle eye

Iago wrote: »

During the 7 seasons I mentioned above he averaged 24 league starts a season. That's no mean feat in a United team that was sweeping all before them.

Thats not answering my question.

By starts do you mean he was selected to start the game?

Iago

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats not answering my question.

By starts do you mean he was selected to start the game?

I'm not sure how else to answer your question??

He was in the first 11 on average 24 times a season in the league, the rest of his appearances were as a substitute.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Frisbee vs Necronomicon

RasTa vs Iago

whatawaster vs gonzovision

Mitch Connor vs janets on clubs

- Polls will close after 4 days;
- Results will remain hidden until they close to prevent bandwagon jumping;
- I would therefore encourage people to maybe wait a day or so before voting so that people can get an adjustment writeup in;


Anyone can vote if they like, but only owner voters and Eirebhoys votes will count towards final result...

I have merged all of the discussion that was put in the matchup threads to here (the discussion thread! ). Really don't want this thing to clog up the forum.

Frisbee wrote: »

Can you see who voted for who?

Because 24 of us +1 for Eirebhoy

Yet two of the threads already have 31 and 26 votes...

The poll has been set to public, so yes.



Another four matchups will be put up this afternoon.

eagle eye

Iago wrote: »

I'm not sure how else to answer your question??

He was in the first 11 on average 24 times a season in the league, the rest of his appearances were as a substitute.

Well I find it very interesting that he made 210 league starts over his 12 seasons there and you have him down for 204 of them in seven years.

Iago

eagle eye wrote: »

Well I find it very interesting that he made 210 league starts over his 12 seasons there and you have him down for 204 of them in seven years.

For clarity Butts appearance record is

Season Team League Apps League Starts
92/93----MU

---

1

---

0
93/94----MU

---

1

---

0
94/95----MU

---

22

---

11
95/96----MU

---

32

---

31
96/97----MU

---

26

---

24
97/98----MU

---

33

---

31
98/99----MU

---

31

---

22
99/00----MU

---

32

---

21
00/01----MU

---

28

---

24
01/02----MU

---

25

---

20
02/03----MU

---

18

---

14
03/04----MU

---

21

---

12

04/05---NU

---

18

---

16
05/06---BIR

---

24

---

22
06/07---NU

---

31

---

27
07/08---NU

---

35

---

35
08/09---NU

---

20

---

20

I make that 398 appearances with 330 starts.

Now in fairness if you have a source that disputes that throw it up here, at the moment I seem to be providing all the backing for my argument and my dissenters only response has been "no he wasn't" without any backup or reasoning.

edit: edited to add that I have him down for 164 starts in 7 years not 204.

whatawaster

Iago wrote: »

Now in fairness if you have a source that disputes that throw it up here, at the moment I seem to be providing all the backing for my argument and my dissenters only response has been "no he wasn't" without any backup or reasoning.

edit: edited to add that I have him down for 164 starts in 7 years not 204.

that's because no facts in the world can prove Butt was anything much above average to good. Essien, despite far fewer appearances has had a huge impact on the premier league.
All of Butt's appearances above must have been when either Keane or Scholes were injured/suspended or rested, because he gets nowhere near their best starting 11 during that era.

I voted for your team, i think its better overall, but i think you're wrong in this regard.

Nalz

eagle eye wrote: »

Thats not answering my question.

By starts do you mean he was selected to start the game?

I'm not tryna pick a fight or start petty arguments, But Butt for a while was first choice. Keane was out for a whole season in 1998, Scholes didnt come into the team as quick as Butt did, and at the beginning of his career he played up front (in the hole whatever its called). It was from that season onwards (1998) that Scholesy became a creative attacking MF and when Keane returned Butt had a lesser role, yet still managed to tott up alot of games.

Like your a Blackburn fan, I was and still am to a degree a big Manchester United fan. I can understand how people would find it surprising but tis the fahhhctsss

Re Lucas Neill, I still think you can call him a CB but he's natural position and more frequent position is CB. Im not denying that, but the guy can play there alot more comfortably then other so called "emergency" fill in CBs.

Mitch Connor

Trilla wrote: »

Re Lucas Neill, I still think you can call him a CB but he's natural position and more frequent position is CB. Im not denying that, but the guy can play there alot more comfortably then other so called "emergency" fill in CBs.

Wouldn't have him as the bedrock of the defence though.

whatawaster

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Wouldn't have him as the bedrock of the defence though.

+1.

good back three's tend to have three centre backs. I may be wrong, but did Italy not play that system in recent years, possibly with Nesta, Cannevaro and Maldini? Even if they didn't they are the kind of players that would work in that system. Dixon and Winterburn were good full backs but nothing they have done in their premiership careers suggest to me they could handle the role they'd be asked to play in that team.

Iago

whatawaster wrote: »

that's because no facts in the world can prove Butt was anything much above average to good. Essien, despite far fewer appearances has had a huge impact on the premier league.
All of Butt's appearances above must have been when either Keane or Scholes were injured/suspended or rested, because he gets nowhere near their best starting 11 during that era.

I voted for your team, i think its better overall, but i think you're wrong in this regard.

appreciate the vote

This is my final word on this debate because it's clear that people are entrenched in their opinions and aren't for the swaying on either side. I don't dispute that in the latter years of his United career Butt was marginalised by the emergence of Scholes as an incredible midfielder alongside Keane.

However Scholes wasn't playing that position from when he broke into the team, and Butt was first choice in midfield alongside Keane at that time

Season--- Butt League Starts --- Keane League Starts ---Scholes League Starts
95/96

---

31

---

29

---

16
96/97

---

24

---

21

---

16
97/98

---

31

---

9

---

28 (keane out injured)
98/99

---

22

---

33

---

24
99/00

---

21

---

29

---

27
00/01

---

24

---

28

---

28

so with the exception of 95/96 which was Scholes first season in the first team and 97/98 when Keane was injured for most of the season all 3 played in the same first 11 the vast majority of games in the premier league.

It was only after that point that Scholes reverted permenantly back to centre midfield and Butt was relegated to a bit part. It's important to remember that Butt wasn't competing with Scholes for a midfield spot, he was competing with Keane, I'm not sure anyone in the league at the time would have got more game time under those circumstances.

Nalz

Iago wrote: »

appreciate the vote

This is my final word on this debate because it's clear that people are entrenched in their opinions and aren't for the swaying on either side. I don't dispute that in the latter years of his United career Butt was marginalised by the emergence of Scholes as an incredible midfielder alongside Keane.

However Scholes wasn't playing that position from when he broke into the team, and Butt was first choice in midfield alongside Keane at that time

Season--- Butt League Starts --- Keane League Starts ---Scholes League Starts
95/96

---

31

---

29

---

16
96/97

---

24

---

21

---

16
97/98

---

31

---

9

---

28 (keane out injured)
98/99

---

22

---

33

---

24
99/00

---

21

---

29

---

27
00/01

---

24

---

28

---

28

so with the exception of 95/96 which was Scholes first season in the first team and 97/98 when Keane was injured for most of the season all 3 played in the same first 11 the vast majority of games in the premier league.

It was only after that point that Scholes reverted permenantly back to centre midfield and Butt was relegated to a bit part. It's important to remember that Butt wasn't competing with Scholes for a midfield spot, he was competing with Keane, I'm not sure anyone in the league at the time would have got more game time under those circumstances.

+1

100% agree

redzerdrog

rasta has a pretty good team if he was only bothered to do a write up he would be well up there.

Bubs101

whatawaster wrote: »

+1.

good back three's tend to have three centre backs. I may be wrong, but did Italy not play that system in recent years, possibly with Nesta, Cannevaro and Maldini? Even if they didn't they are the kind of players that would work in that system. Dixon and Winterburn were good full backs but nothing they have done in their premiership careers suggest to me they could handle the role they'd be asked to play in that team.

Italy definitely didn't do it because it would leave out Zambrotta but Milan did it for a long time I'm sure. Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta and in fairness to Frisbee, Costacurta and Maldini you could argue are full backs. However, they did have experience in that system which is something that neither of Frisbee's back 4 have so I'm not sure why he picked such a hollow back line

Melion

I was a bit worried when i seen i was against Bubs. After looking at his 11 my lads would have nothing to worry about. What a battle that midfield would be in a real match though Lee and Tugay vs Davids and Wise, it would be immense

LuckyLloyd

Bubs101 vs Melion

NekkidBibleMan vs ditpoker

Mr. Nice Guy vs Xavi6

shoutman vs Wreck

Lets keep all discussion in here, aside from if an owner wished to make an extra post in their matchup thread...

Trippie

Can't believe I actually voted for jeff's team.

I'll do a write up for mine soon enough

Frisbee

NekkidBibleMan
Bubs101
shoutman
Xavi6 (the two best teams in the draft imo, shame they get drawn against each other so early. It felt so wrong voting against Bergkamp...)

Kinda32

Iago wrote: »

appreciate the vote

This is my final word on this debate because it's clear that people are entrenched in their opinions and aren't for the swaying on either side. I don't dispute that in the latter years of his United career Butt was marginalised by the emergence of Scholes as an incredible midfielder alongside Keane.

However Scholes wasn't playing that position from when he broke into the team, and Butt was first choice in midfield alongside Keane at that time

Season--- Butt League Starts --- Keane League Starts ---Scholes League Starts
95/96

---

31

---

29

---

16
96/97

---

24

---

21

---

16
97/98

---

31

---

9

---

28 (keane out injured)
98/99

---

22

---

33

---

24
99/00

---

21

---

29

---

27
00/01

---

24

---

28

---

28

so with the exception of 95/96 which was Scholes first season in the first team and 97/98 when Keane was injured for most of the season all 3 played in the same first 11 the vast majority of games in the premier league.

It was only after that point that Scholes reverted permenantly back to centre midfield and Butt was relegated to a bit part. It's important to remember that Butt wasn't competing with Scholes for a midfield spot, he was competing with Keane, I'm not sure anyone in the league at the time would have got more game time under those circumstances.

As a Man Utd fan i totally appreciated what Butt did for the club. He was a super servant to the team and was probably more appreciated by United fans than other teams fans cause we saw that he always gave everything to the club. However it is surely a bit of a stretch to say that he is better or had more impact than Essien!! Essien is surely in every current debate that takes place about the best midfielder in the world (i seriously doubt Butt ever was, and don't give me the Pele thing, his coaching credentials are hardly earth-shattering!!).

As for the comment re all 3 players (Keane, Scholes and Butt) playing together all the time, i checked 3 seasons (98/99, 99/00, 00/01) and they started together an average of 7 times!!! ( link here http://www.stretfordend.co.uk/seasons/season2001.html )

Now again i'm not knocking Butt, he served us really well but you cant argue his impact against Essien.. Fergie's first choice central pairing when available would always be Scholes and Keane, i doubt if/when Essien is fit that he is anything else other than first in the Chelsea midfield teamsheet..

DmanDmythDledge

I don't think there's much contest with this one. Mr. Nice Guy's team would hammer Xavi's.:)

ditpoker

The way my opposition is lined up I think my solid back 4 (3 of man utd's first dominant defence in the prem + ashley cole) would be too strong for a one man attack Jimmy floyd H. who's goalscoring record at chelsea is just equal to that of darren bent, who has never played at a club as strong as chelsea, and I have cottee along side him.

I think my defense is stronger. I think my attack is stronger. In terms of midfield I agree my opponent has alot of flair etc.

I would suggest in a big game once off cup game that flair and creativity could be the undoing of my team in this instance, but over a league season my team would finish several places ahead.

For instance, his first pick Matt Le Tiss, AMAZING player on his day, unfortunately his day was fairly rare. When we look back at his career now we see his goals against blackburn and newcastle and various moments of genius, but over 10 seasons...??? Whereas my team, for instance my backline, parker bruce pallister cole are consistent performers, week in week out.

And my squad are all english!

My team would finish ahead of my opponents in a league season.

ditpoker

Trippie wrote: »

Can't believe I actually voted for jeff's team.

I'll do a write up for mine soon enough

over a league season english grit will win out of foreign flair, wavey gravey imports is all they are! bring back terry butcher!!!

can i call my team Terry Butcher XI?

eagle eye

Iago wrote: »

For clarity Butts appearance record is

Season Team League Apps League Starts
92/93----MU

---

1

---

0
93/94----MU

---

1

---

0
94/95----MU

---

22

---

11
95/96----MU

---

32

---

31
96/97----MU

---

26

---

24
97/98----MU

---

33

---

31
98/99----MU

---

31

---

22
99/00----MU

---

32

---

21
00/01----MU

---

28

---

24
01/02----MU

---

25

---

20
02/03----MU

---

18

---

14
03/04----MU

---

21

---

12


edit: edited to add that I have him down for 164 starts in 7 years not 204.

I said that he had 210 league starts as in was selected in the first team. If you add up the figures on the right above its 210.
As I said I remember him being first choice for one season which was 95/96 after Ince left, but then Ronny Johnsen came in and he was first choice with Keane. Johnsen suffered a lot form injury so I'm sure Butt got plenty of games in his absence, then Scholes started playing in midfield when Keane got injured, Johnsen then moved to the back when Pallister retired and the midfield was Keane and Scholes.
I'm not disputing that he played plenty of games but basically for most of his time there it was due to injury to others rather than as an automatic first team selection when United had everyone available in midfield.

Bounty Hunter

are the losers in this round going to be dropping into your own version of the Europa league (getting used to the term) and playing each other for a best loser prize ?

eagle eye

Trilla wrote: »

Re Lucas Neill, I still think you can call him a CB but he's natural position and more frequent position is RB. Im not denying that, but the guy can play there alot more comfortably then other so called "emergency" fill in CBs.

FYP there.

I never said he could not play at CB, but Frisbee has said that he rates him a top 10 CB in this draft and that simply is not true and you could not rate him as a CB with the few appearances he made in the position.
Also as said by somebody else playing two full backs in a back three is not normal, in fact I'd say its plain crazy, and Frisbee is playing three FBs at the back. Whether they can do a job a good enough job at CB is at least questionable, but to do a job at CB against a top lineup is too much to ask imo.

Sadly there are not many of those involved voicing their opinions here. I'd like to hear everyones views on these subjects.

Trippie

I think its nuts, there were pundits calling for Mialn to play with 3 at the back when they signed stam and even berlusconi came out and said that was a crazy idea. If Milan didnt do it with Nesta,Maldini and Stam in the team then what makes you think you can play like that frisbee. The wing backs natural tendancies to drift out wide will leave your huge space between him and the centre back making your defence give up a lot fo one on one chances to teams with pacy attackers

Necronomicon

Some close ties in this round, this is how I've gone for them:

Melion vs Bubs101: I've gone for Bubs in this one. The attacking trio of Ronaldo, Okocha and Cole is indeed pretty awesome. My only reservation is that you couldn't really rely on King for fitness over the course of a season. I also think there might have been one or two better options left than the Edgar Davids we saw in the Premiership. I like Melion's team, but Bubs just shades it for me.

NekkidBibleMan vs ditpoker: Again definitely not a cut and dry decision, but I've gone for NBM. The drafting of Rosicky is undoubtedly a weakness, but overall I think there's a nice balance of flair and protection.

Mr. Nice Guy vs Xavi6: Tie of the round definitely. I think Xavi has a stronger defence (Southgate and Carvalho is possibly the most solid partnership in the game) but MNG shades it going forward (Bergkamp and Defoe would be a terrific partnership). Tough call - but over an entire season I'd just about give the nod to MNG.

shoutman vs Wreck: I've gone for Wreck in this tie. Good defense - you've got somewhat of an old-school CB pairing in Radebe and Hendry with two of today's best young full backs on either side, which just about shades shoutman's for me. I think central midfield is hard to call. You've each got a player who'd probably get into any other team (Keane, Gerrard) with a slightly more questionable partner (Barnes and Platt both probably played their best football outside of the Premiership). On the wings, I think Ljunberg and Barmby have had an overall bigger impact than Roy and Young. Up front, Drogba and Tevez are both awesome players but Drogba has produced his best form when playing alone. I think Wreck just shades it here too, with the intelligence of Kanu and the finishing ability of Solskjaer.

Bubs101

Necronomicon wrote: »

Melion vs Bubs101: I've gone for Bubs in this one. The attacking trio of Ronaldo, Okocha and Cole is indeed pretty awesome. My only reservation is that you couldn't really rely on King for fitness over the course of a season

Just on King's fitness, it's alot better than people give him credit for. He's only played 9 Premiership game since early 2007 but before then he had 201 in effectively 7 seasons (his first 2 official ones involved only a few cameo youth appearances. I'd definitely agree on Davids though, regret picking him

Xavi6

Just seeing this now as I only got home a few hours ago. Will go through it in the morning.

eagle eye

Just looking at the Mr Nice Guy vs Xavi game and I'm finding it very hard to come up with a winner.

I think I'd give Mr Nice Guy the advantage in midfield and attack as I don't rate Collymore or Gillespie as great players over their full careers in the Premier League, I don't think Berkovic was very consistent either, he had some splendid games but he could be muck as well. However Mr Nice Guy is very weak in defence imo with Wes Brown playing in the centre and really three of his back four have been injury prone during their time in the PL, and that changes everything as Xavi has a formidable back three which is well capable of keeping a clean sheet. Xavi's team is not the strongest for me, but the fact that he does not have a large number of injury prone players might sway it in his favour for me. Its really tight though imo, I am going to have to really study both line ups a bit more.

LuckyLloyd

To say that there is a tie of the round is a huge understatement!!

LuckyLloyd

Seaman, Carvalho and Southgate is such a sick, sick defensive anchor.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Seaman, Carvalho and Southgate is such a sick, sick defensive anchor.

But thats not the tie of the round, for me its the Shoutman vs Wreck one.

shoutman

What I'd do to see some of these line ups in a real match. T'would be emmense.

Iago

surprised by some of the first round results, seems myself and Llyod were consistent at picking the losing team. Not sure if that says something about us, or the rest of the forum

Trippie

I was 7 and 1 for picking the winning team, To be honest I was always going to favor a more recent team as my knowledge of early premiership is pretty poor

LuckyLloyd

Iago wrote: »

surprised by some of the first round results, seems myself and Llyod were consistent at picking the losing team. Not sure if that says something about us, or the rest of the forum

The latter, obv. :pac:

shoutman

Will someone post the results on here please?

titan18

So, what's happening with this?

whatawaster

When will the next round be starting? It's gone sleepy again.

LuckyLloyd

whatawaster wrote: »

When will the next round be starting? It's gone sleepy again.

Sorry, will get on it this evening...

shoutman

Any updates on this Lloyd?

If required, I have a bit of free time at the moment, don't mind taking over the running of this if it helps.

whatawaster

bump

shoutman

Come on Lloyd this is getting ridiculous. Tell me what needs to be done for the next round and i'll do it.