Round 1: RasTa vs Iago

LuckyLloyd

1. Chris Kirkland
2. Bacary Sagna
3. Matthew Upson
4. Patrice Evra
5. Jonathan Woodgate
6. Michael Ballack
7. Theo Walcott
8. Michael Essien
9. Micheal Owen
10. Emmanuel Adebayor
11. Marc Overmars

vs

Iago wrote: »

Right, seen as my impromptu ban is up what better way to return than by completing my write-up for the draft. Apologies to all for the delay, but I was on holiday and then only back a couple of days before I was banned.

The Bottlers

Without further ado, let's get into it. I'll start by saying that my team was picked with the objectives of the draft in mind that is to say “impact on the premiership” so I had discounted the likes of Torres, Young, Sagna etc before I even started to think about who would be in my team, simply because while they are undoubtably talented their impact has been minimal by virtue of the limited time they have spent to date actually playing in the premiership.

My first pick was David Beckham, while he doesn't really need justification the fact is he is the best supplier of a ball of his generation. That he has now played for United, Madrid and AC Milan as well as 107 appearances (to date) for his country and captaining them for 58 of those games over 6 years speaks volumes about his ability and influence within a club. He was instrumental in lifting United out of the dark years and has the ability to land a ball within a 2 yard area from 60 yards away, his delivery and set plays will be invaluable in games and with 265 appearances, 152 assists & 62 goals in the premier league is right up there with the best players to ever compete.

My second pick was Andy Cole a phoneonomal goalscorer who scored for fun everywhere he went. Started his premier league career at Newcastle where he smashed in an incredible 55 goals in 70 games. This prompted a big money move to Manchester United where he became an integral part of a side that won a double and then followed that up with a treble a couple of years later. Along the way he scored 93 goals in 195 appearances before being transferred to Blackburn Rovers he also had brief spells with Fulham & Manchester City before moving out of the premier league altogether. The second highest goalscorer in premier league history with 414 appearances, 189 goals & 135 assists any team with him is going to be a significant attacking threat.

Having picked two of the best attacking players to grace the premiership, defence was very much next on the agenda. I was delighted to get Jamie Carragher who is one of the most consistent, tough tackling, organising centre backs to have played in the premier league. Alongside Gerrard he has been an almost ever present for Liverpool over the last 10+ years and is key to any success they have had in that period. He has made 382 appearances to date in the premier league and holds their record for European appearances as well as being in their top 10 appearance list of all time. He's still only 30 and is only now approaching his peak years as a footballer, a thorough professional through and through.

After watching a run on keepers, and obviously missing out on the best keeper in the pick I went for Jose Reina as my next pick. Another stand out performer in the premier league and one of the best keepers to play there. He holds a whole stack of goalkeeping records for Liverpool and has won the golden gloves trophy for clean sheets 3 years in a row. While I agree with those who say that it's not simply an award for a goalkeeper, the fact that I have Carragher in front of him can only help the cause.

Having sorted out the backbone of my defence I needed to look at my attacking options again, and when you have someone as quick and lethal as Andy Cole up front you need to find a partner that can build on his strengths and help to overcome his weaknesses. With that in mind Emile Heskey became my next pick, a big bustling striker who can hold the ball up and lay it off behind to Cole.he also gives me a big physical presence for set piece situations which are a vital part of any game. Heskey has made 424 appearances to date, chipping in with 102 goals as well as 92 assists. Another player who provides an attacking threat that defences will struggle to deal with. Plus his middle name is Ivanhoe and that's far too cool not to be included in my team

So defensive backbone...check.
Attacking threats....check.

What next, well a lot of games are won and lost in the centre of the park, I needed someone with a bit of steel who could go in there and break up play allowing my more creative players to punish mistakes from there. With that in mind I chose Nicky Butt another player that never really stood out to the media but who Alex Ferguson saw as a vital part of his team. Broke into the United team at just 18 and made the centre midfield spot his own over the next 6 years before Paul Scholes stepped to the fore. Steeped in premier league experience with 10 trophies to his name as well as 397 appearances, 29 goals and 50 assists shows he can produce on an attacking as well as defending front.

My next pick is the very definition of rock and has had a huge impact whereever he has played. With the formation I intend playing it was vital that I got a really strong DM to anchor my midfield, with George Boateng I believe I found that player. Hugely effective at breaking down attacks and blocking the attacking midfielders we'll be up against he's one of the best at what he does. With 348 appearances and even a few goals and assists (16 & 27 respectively) thrown in I'm confident that he will provide a good shield for my back line and help Butt control the centre of the park.

My next pick was defensive minded, and I was looking for someone who had proven premier league pedigree as well as an ability to withstand pressure. With that in mind I was delighted to get David Unsworth another player with a huge amount of premier league experience having played for 4 teams in the premier league and been a regular with all four. Although a defender he has scored a fair share of goals including a penalty that kept Wigan Athletic in the premier league. Known as Rhino to his fans he 's strong in the tackle and in the air but is a lot quicker than his size would have you believe. In total he made 364 appearances with 38 goals and 35 assists throughout his career.

The left hand side of midfield is a really difficult position to fill. There have only been 2-3 truly world class players in that position in the premier league. With Steed Malbranque I have one of the next tier of players down from those. Consistent if flamboyant and with a pretty decent work-rate and ethos, he will provide a real threat down the left hand side of my midfield. He offers me a different type of attacking option than Beckham on the right and will deliver a good return on goals and assists during this competion. With 262 premier league appearances to date, including 39 goals and 76 assists he is a real and credible threat on the left hand flank.

To complete my defence I chose Steve Watson, professionalism personified I was shocked that he was still available at the late stage that I picked him but absolutely delighted he was. Watson played 351 times in the premier league and is another defender who knows how to find the oppositions net with 26 goals and 32 assists in that time. He's currently playing with Sheff Wed, when he joined them they had lost their previous 5 games in a row. In their next 11 games they lost 1, won 6 and drew 4 showing his immediate influence on the team and shoring up their back line.

To complete my team I decided to go for someone who can contribute in both an attacking and defending capacity and offer me a little creativity through the middle. An understated component of Wimbledon and Liverpool sides in the late 90's-early 00's Oyvind Leonhardsen played 86 times for Norway scoring 19 goals. In the premier league he made 186 appearances, scoring 30 goals and being credited with 34 assists.

I'm going to set up a 3-1-4-2 Formation to start with but I could very easily turn that into a 5-3-2 or 4-4-2 formation if and when required. The players I've picked have offered me versatility as well as experience and allow for a lot of changing to suit the game in question.

I'm also spoiled for choice in terms of Captains with no less than 5 players who were captain of their respective teams at various stages. I'm going to go with Carragher though as I like my captain to play at centre back where possible and I'll be relying on him to organise my defence in any case.

Needless to say Beckham & Malbranque will split the free kicks and corners between them with Beckham having first shout.


......................Reina.............................

.....Watson.......Carragher.........Unsworth

........................Boateng.........................

....Beckham.......Leonhardsen........Butt.......Malbranque

...............Cole........Heskey


Team Awards (cumulative):
Premier League titles 17
FA Cups 12
Champions League 4
UEFA Cup 2
League Cup 9

Individual Awards) :
PFA Young Player of the Year 2
World Cup Team of the Tournament 1
UEFA Club Player of the Year 1
World Player of the Year Runner Up 1
PFA Team of the Year 1
Premier League Golden Gloves 3

Premier League Only (cumulative):
Appearances 3540
Assists 657
Goals 534
Clean Sheets (Gk only) 69 in 128 appearances

Premier League Only (average)
Appearances 322
Assists 60
Goals 48

RasTa pm'd and invited to do a write up which can be edited in later...

Iago

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Voting criteria

- We are not simply judging as to which team would win a once off cup match played today;
- You should vote for the team that you believe would perform better over the course of an entire league season;
- Through basing player assessments on how much of an impact they had on the premiership as a whole - not necessarily on their peak abilities on their best days;
- As such, you should pay attention to the debate and clarification over the various criteria such as injuries, sample size, consistency, etc, etc;

If we take the above into consideration, and specifically the piece I've bolded I think my team is significantly stronger than Rastas;


Reina v Kirkland ; While I like Kirkland as a keeper I really don't think he's anywhere near the same class as Reina

Watson v Sagna ; As mentioned in my write up, Sagna hasn't had anywhere near enough game time to argue that he has had a significant impact on the premiership. Has he the potential? Certainly, but this wasn't about potential.

Unsworth v Evra ; Evra is a much better player than Unsworth, no complaints here.

Woodgate v Carragher ; Again while there's a lot to like about Woodgate I think Carragher is miles ahead of him from a talent point of view even ignoring Woodgates injury problems.

Upson v Boateng ; I actually think this is pretty close. Upson is a rock at centre half and would cause any forward problems. Boateng is relentless and consistent, has great positional sense (which Upson sometimes lacks) and has more than proven himself in the premiership.

Overmars v Beckham ; Overmars was a great player, but he's nowhere near the class of Becks.

Ballack v Leonardson ; Although I don't think Ballack is reproducing the form he has shown he's capable of, he is a better player than Leonardson and would cause significant problems.

Butt v Essien ; At his peak I believe Butt was a better player than Essien, but what Essien gives you is options. I'm unsure as to who comes out on top here to be honest.

Walcott v Malbranque ; Again ignoring Walcotts injury problems, he simply hasn't had enough game time to have a significant impact on the premier league. Malbranque is a seasoned professional and offers a defensive role which Walcott lacks as well as a real threat going forward. Again potenially Walcott could far outstrip him, but that's in the future.

Cole v Owen ; Two incredible goal scorers, both would make most teams on their day. Owens impact at Liverpool was huge and to be fair his injuries have prevented him having the same impact at Newcastle.

Heskey v Adebayor ; Personally I really don't rate Adebayor, so any comments I make would be biased. Again if you look at consistency and presence, and take into account the very specific role I want Heskey to play I think I come out on top.

Now given that we are looking at a season rather than a once off game I won't compare my centre-halves with Rastas forward line but I'm confident that my attacking options would break down a defence quicker than his. I think his main weakness is that he's picked two very attacking full-backs who haven't got the best positional sense in the world, and he hasn't covered that with Walcott & Overmars. As a result I think he's going to concede a lot of goals from counter attacks when players are out of position.

I'd also be concerned with the sheer volume of injury prone players in the team, even though it's not a main consideration you would have to be worried with Kirkland, Woodgate, Walcott & Owen all in the same eleven.

Iago

suspect result to say the least (although I would think that)

As I feared a competition that started as the team that has had the most impact on the premiership has descended into the team that has the most recent players that people remember

should be interesting to see who finishes out front, good luck for the rest Rasta

Pepe LeFrits

Iago

... yeah, I'm sure it's nothing to do with things like rating Butt higher than Essien!

Iago

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

... yeah, I'm sure it's nothing to do with things like rating Butt higher than Essien!

you see this is the problem.

Is Essien a better player than Butt today...yes

Is Essien a better player than Butt in his prime...possibly, but personally I think Butt is grossly under rated and was a brilliant player at his peak.

Has Essien the potential to have a more significant impact on the premiership than Butt...yes

Has Essien had a bigger impact on the premiership than Butt to date...not even close

The draft was started with the clear imperative that we judge overall impact on the premier league, by that measure Butt is a better pick than Essien.

If the draft was on the best centre midfielders to ever play in the premiership then Butt would be ranked lower than Essien.

Jazzy

Iago

essien is currently one of the best midfielders in europe
butt was the darren fletcher of his day

Pepe LeFrits

Iago

Jazzy wrote: »

essien is currently one of the best midfielders in europe
butt was the darren fletcher of his day

More or less.

Essien hasn't been around as long or won as much as Butt, but he's played a bigger role in his team's successes. Essien has played a key role in Chelsea's successes recently; Butt was always much more of a supporting act to the likes of Keane and co. Similarly stuff like Heskey (a 1:4.25 goals:game striker) over Adebayor (1:2.25) is a bit of a stretch.

One thing that strikes me is the enormous difference in pace of the two sides - one has the likes of Overmars, Owen, Adebayor, Walcott, Essien, Evra and Sagna, while the other has... er...

RasTa

Iago

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

More or less.

Essien hasn't been around as long or won as much as Butt, but he's played a bigger role in his team's successes. Essien has played a key role in Chelsea's successes recently; Butt was always much more of a supporting act to the likes of Keane and co. Similarly stuff like Heskey (a 1:4.25 goals:game striker) over Adebayor (1:2.25) is a bit of a stretch.

One thing that strikes me is the enormous difference in pace of the two sides - one has the likes of Overmars, Owen, Adebayor, Walcott, Essien, Evra and Sagna, while the other has... er...

Do my writeup there and i'll give ye a tenner :pac::pac:

Iago

Jazzy wrote: »

essien is currently one of the best midfielders in europe
butt was the darren fletcher of his day

How do you define "one of the best" top 5? Essien is nowhere near it, Top 10? no, he still doesn't make that list. Top 15 then? He might just about scrape into that list...might mind you.

IMHO the top 10 centre midfielders in Europe in terms of influence and ability are (in no particular order);

Xavi, Iniesta, Gerard, Fabergas, Kaka, Pirlo, Gattuso, Lampard, Makelele, Cambiasso

The second part of your quote is hyperbole and just shows how much selective recollection people use to suit their argument.

I'm still going around in circles here, but I know that I'm right and that's all that matters

Ultimately this was more than a debate about Butt v Essien, and I genuinely believe that over the course of a season my team would have better results than Rastas. Either way I was never going to win the competition but I do think that some of the voting results show that there is a clear bias towards the recent years despite the whole impact on premiership guideline.

Of course the counter argument is that the league is much tougher now and therefore you have to be a better and stronger player to flourish and play in the top teams. Like Darren Fletcher and JOS obviously

iregk

Iago

Iago, if you lost by a handfull of votes I could understand your annoyance. Thing is Rasta out did you 2-1. Now I have to say the pace of the two sides isn't even close. Personally Iago I think Rasta's team would have a better record over the course of the year but thats just me and by the looks of it most others.

If you lost there is no point crying about it and claiming that your correct and everyone else is wrong and doesn't know a thing. Accept it and move on.

On a side note. Butt over Essien. Is was at that point I lost all interest in your argument.

Iago

iregk wrote: »

Iago, if you lost by a handfull of votes I could understand your annoyance. Thing is Rasta out did you 2-1. Now I have to say the pace of the two sides isn't even close. Personally Iago I think Rasta's team would have a better record over the course of the year but thats just me and by the looks of it most others.

If you lost there is no point crying about it and claiming that your correct and everyone else is wrong and doesn't know a thing. Accept it and move on.

On a side note. Butt over Essien. Is was at that point I lost all interest in your argument.

I'm not crying over it, and I'm not overly bothered one way or the other. I had an opinion which differed from the majority that's not the first and won't be the last time that happens, but I am right

I don't subscribe to the Essien has had a bigger impact than Butt on the premiership and I don't get how anyone else does either. You're right though, in trying to make my point it does come across a bit whingy so I'll leave it there.

LuckyLloyd

Iago wrote: »

I'll leave it there.

Good idea.