Private Sector staff yet to get a pay cut(will it be easier to implement now?)

gazzer

Now that the pension levy has been announced and with the amount of people in the private sector taking pay cuts do you reckon we are now going to see pay cuts been implented in areas of the private sector where it hasnt yet happened and my not warrant a pay cut(i.e businesses not in trouble)?

What I am getting at is that none of my family or friends in the private sector have taken a pay cut or lost a job. They all seem to be pretty confidant that things are good and going to stay that way. However do you think that employers will now turn around and try to impose pay cuts (using the fact that other people are now taking pay cuts and paying a pension levy).

seamus

No, I don't think so. It doesn't make sense for an employer to cut pay unless they're actually in trouble. Your employees know if you're in trouble, so if you try to say, "Well, I know that you've been run off your feet with work, but would you mind taking a 10% drop?", you're just going to turn a good quality productive wokrforce into a resentful one and you're going to lose most of your best people.

I also find it hard to understand people who are now calling on the government to "force" a 10% drop in pay in the private sector. If private sector pay drops, then so does PAYE revenue, as well as PRSI, VAT, and so forth. It works in the public sector because the wages come from the taxpayer, so there's still a net gain (the wages reclaimed are > than the PAYE lost). If a business needs to cut its wage bill, then it will. It doesn't need the government to help it.

EL_Loco

people are being let go, never mind being offered a pay cut. Some people have taken a pay cut, some have taken a P45.

probably easier for a company to sack somone and not have to pay insurance and pension rather than keeping everyone on board and continuing with those contribuations.

It's not like the private sector is being shy in letting people go. look at the unemployment statistics.

Edit: you may see some employers taking the chance to cut wages with a "it has to be done" approach, time will tell i suppose.

oh and your title should be "private sector people I know....." just a lucky/in the minority group of people you happen to know.

NewDubliner

EL_Loco wrote: »

people are being let go, never mind being offered a pay cut. Some people have taken a pay cut, some have taken a P45.

A friend of mine works in one of the CS IT departments. They got clearance to hire people recruited some months ago and sent out offers quite recently.

Of the successful candidates, 60% turned down the job offers.

nesf

Not really, the justification for pay cuts in the private sector comes from the economic downturn and that reality is there regardless of what happens with the public service. The converse is also true, during a downturn a company that can avoid cutting pay is a company with very loyal and hard working employees which is worth quite a bit in many industries.

Scofflaw

seamus wrote: »

No, I don't think so. It doesn't make sense for an employer to cut pay unless they're actually in trouble. Your employees know if you're in trouble, so if you try to say, "Well, I know that you've been run off your feet with work, but would you mind taking a 10% drop?", you're just going to turn a good quality productive wokrforce into a resentful one and you're going to lose most of your best people.

I also find it hard to understand people who are now calling on the government to "force" a 10% drop in pay in the private sector. If private sector pay drops, then so does PAYE revenue, as well as PRSI, VAT, and so forth. It works in the public sector because the wages come from the taxpayer, so there's still a net gain (the wages reclaimed are > than the PAYE lost). If a business needs to cut its wage bill, then it will. It doesn't need the government to help it.

I'm not sure the government even has the ability to do it. The government doesn't set private sector wages - are people perhaps unaware of this?

cordially,
Scofflaw

SkepticOne

NewDubliner wrote: »

A friend of mine works in one of the CS IT departments. They got clearance to hire people recruited some months ago and sent out offers quite recently.

Of the successful candidates, 60% turned down the job offers.

I would imagine, even in the current downturn, that if you want to recruit IT staff you need to do so shortly after selecting them, not months later, otherwise they will have moved on to other jobs. This may change as the situation deteriorates.

DublinWriter

A lot of self-employed in the private sector (myself included) have taken pay cuts of between 5% and 10% on client work this year.

I don't know if you've noticed, but 1000's of people are losing their jobs here on a weekly basis in the private sector.

BroomBurner

SkepticOne wrote: »

I would imagine, even in the current downturn, that if you want to recruit IT staff you need to do so shortly after selecting them, not months later, otherwise they will have moved on to other jobs. This may change as the situation deteriorates.

That's a moot point, tbh. If the workers were worried in the here and now about job security, etc., they would not be turning down the CS position.

murphaph

When you take the private sector as a whole it has taken a massive pay cut....hence tax revenues are down so dramatically. A lost job is the same as a 100% pay cut.

I believe Ericsson's announcement today is a 'let's take advantage of this recession' one though and many more will follow.

Yet the public sector unions want to strike. I'll go in and boo and jeer any public servants who have the nerve to strike or protest I swear I will.

BroomBurner

murphaph wrote: »

Yet the public sector unions want to strike. I'll go in and boo and jeer any public servants who have the nerve to strike or protest I swear I will.

Yeah, sure you will. See ya on the news on Valentine's Day then, shall we?

irish_bob

murphaph wrote: »

When you take the private sector as a whole it has taken a massive pay cut....hence tax revenues are down so dramatically. A lost job is the same as a 100% pay cut.

I believe Ericsson's announcement today is a 'let's take advantage of this recession' one though and many more will follow.

Yet the public sector unions want to strike. I'll go in and boo and jeer any public servants who have the nerve to strike or protest I swear I will.

is that all , i intend bringing sack fulls of rancid tomatoes with me , theese people have no shame whatsoever

LookingFor

The government doesn't employ people in the private sector. It's not up to them to decide on private sector pay cuts. Companies will make their own individual decisions depending on their own needs - and they are, clearly, every day doing so now.

If you're employed by the government, your renumeration is subject to the health of the government's finances, just as a private sector employes renumeration AND job security are linked to their company's financial health.

Public sector employees baying for private sector blood are barking up the wrong tree, boxing with shadows. It's like Erricsson employees today, for example, wondering why Motorola employees don't get laid off or have pay cuts, and claiming how it's not fair that they aren't. It's really childish. The private sector is not their enemy.

murphaph

LookingFor wrote: »

The private sector is not their enemy.

Indeed. It's the private sector that pays their secure wages.

SkepticOne

I don't think a lot of them have fully realised this yet. A decimated private sector means no money for the public sector. The private sector needs to be stimuated not further burdened with higher taxes to pay for pensions and security that they themselves can only dream of.

LookingFor

It's poor dears like that lady interviewed on the Six One at the Impact meeting that get me annoyed about this. Asking what the private sector are going to do now..

I mean, she looked like a reasonably intelligent lady..not young and naive by any means. Yet she was trotting out these memes. I'm wondering who it is among them that's stirring that sentiment. The unions have a responsibility there, I think.

They're like kids who cry when their mommy takes a toy away and someone else's mommy doesn't. Except, really, the other mommies are! And in arguably a much more devestating way for those affected.

SkepticOne

I think also for many they will have been so long out of touch with the real world that they can't really get their head around the fact that money has to come from somewhere. It has to come from profits in the private sector which are then taxed. The fact that they are being asked to contribute a bit more towards their pension (though they still get far better than anyone else) is because the private sector has already taken a hit.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. It's the private sector that pays their secure wages.

Which they spend buying private-sector goods and services at inflated prices.

gnxx

Most private companies do a real strange thing called planning.

A number of private companies started pay freeze and cutback programmes in late 2007.

gurramok

Including mine. A few have been let go in company i work for, i was lucky to be refused redundancy else i be drawing the dole while looking for one of those scarce private sector jobs.
Wonder how many public sector depts have had redundancy programmes for full-time permo employees? (note: permo, not contract/temps etc)

murphaph

NewDubliner wrote: »

Which they spend buying private-sector goods and services at inflated prices.

Lol. You absolutely must be public sector to come out with that one. I work for a private sector retailer. I don't set the prices. I don't even get a discount from my own employer. Fair enough. I have to pay exactly the same as you if we both buy something from my employer. With me so far?

Now....I have no choice but to pay your wages but you do have a choice whether or not to buy from my employer. I have no choice but to use your dept. if I need to but you can shop somewhere else. See the difference there?

I'll sum up for you: In the private sector there is competition. You are free to shop around and if my employer doesn't offer you the best value, shop elsewhere and if enough people feel the same, we will go out of business and I will be on €210 a week but if your dept. doesn't provide value for money.....you keep your job anyway and the private sector employees and companies continue to pay your wages.

I shouldn't have to explain this stuff. This country, like any capitalist country, lives or dies by the private sector.

NewDubliner

murphaph wrote: »

I'll sum up for you: In the private sector there is competition..

There is the appearance of competition. There is an illusion of choice.

The public sector and the private sector are organs of the same economic body. If the private sector is the heart pumping money around, the public sector is the liver, providing vital services.

seamus

NewDubliner wrote: »

The public sector and the private sector are organs of the same economic body. If the private sector is the heart pumping money around, the public sector is the liver, providing vital services.

People can survive with only a portion of their liver intact.

I've never heard of anyone surviving on half a heart.

SkepticOne

NewDubliner wrote: »

The public sector and the private sector are organs of the same economic body. If the private sector is the heart pumping money around, the public sector is the liver, providing vital services.

To understand the relationship between the public service and the rest of society the clue is in the name: public service. They are there to serve wider society. Their position in society is one of subservience. Note that there is no disrespect involved in this. There is nothing wrong with being a servant. Problems occur, however, when the servant forgets his role and starts thinking he is the master. This is what has happend in recent years in Ireland and has brought us to the present crisis. The problem is due to lack of leadership from our politicians. The solution will be painful for all concerned.

irish_bob

SkepticOne wrote: »

To understand the relationship between the public service and the rest of society the clue is in the name: public service. They are there to serve wider society. Their position in society is one of subservience. Note that there is no disrespect involved in this. There is nothing wrong with being a servant. Problems occur, however, when the servant forgets his role and starts thinking he is the master. This is what has happend in recent years in Ireland and has brought us to the present crisis. The problem is due to lack of leadership from our politicians. The solution will be painful for all concerned.

+1 times a thousand

ive yet to meet a public sector workers who didnt have a superior attitude about them , to me the term public servant has become an oxy moron

ednwireland

gazzer wrote: »

Now that the pension levy has been announced and with the amount of people in the private sector taking pay cuts do you reckon we are now going to see pay cuts been implented in areas of the private sector where it hasnt yet happened and my not warrant a pay cut(i.e businesses not in trouble)?

What I am getting at is that none of my family or friends in the private sector have taken a pay cut or lost a job. They all seem to be pretty confidant that things are good and going to stay that way. However do you think that employers will now turn around and try to impose pay cuts (using the fact that other people are now taking pay cuts and paying a pension levy).

pardon - i dont have a pension (cant afford one) ran my oiwn company for several years as a sole trader my turnover dropped 50% in 2007. i was offered a full time position in april 08 i am now on a 3 day week which i beleive is a 2/5ths pay cut (i still have to cover work whilst i am off) i am trying to ensure that i can get the work done so my customers increase their licensing numbers so i can get back to a 5 day week. i dont see too many planning officers being laid off in councils. an architects i know has gone from 11 staff to 2 fulltime and 2 part time. how much of a pay cut is that.
just remeber ALL the public sector wages has to come form taxes levied on the private sector it doesnt come from anywhere else. the public sector tax take is just money being moved around, remember that.
i left home at 4:30 on monday morning and finished work at 2 the following morning, i was on site at 8 am the following morning left got on a flight home at 11 pm that night in work at 9am the following morning no overtime no extra pay no travelling time. but i may have secured a contract for the company worth it - yes

jimmmy

gazzer wrote: »

What I am getting at is that none of my family or friends in the private sector have taken a pay cut or lost a job. .

Wages / perks / pensions are generally not as high in the private sector as the public sector, across the 26 counties.
Most private sector peiople I know have suffered a drop a take home pay....those still in jobs that is. Some self employed people are making little or nothing + cannot go on the dole like an employed person can.

doncarlos

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think also for many they will have been so long out of touch with the real world that they can't really get their head around the fact that money has to come from somewhere. It has to come from profits in the private sector which are then taxed.

The fact that they are being asked to contribute a bit more towards their pension (though they still get far better than anyone else)

It is only a good pension if you remain in the private sector for the full or close to the 40years. A friend of mine in the banking sector gets 66% of his final wage rather than the 50% the civil service get for 40 years service (1/40th of 50% per year of service. I am paying the same amount per month as him. I also started a private pension too as the pension i would have gotten at retirement age was only €100 per week more than the state pension.

SkepticOne wrote: »

is because the private sector has already taken a hit.

SOME people in they private sector have taken a hit. Many have not. ALL members of private sector are getting this levy.

I'm not arguing that there was no need for a pay cut of some description but i think the structure of the levy is grossly unfair. I am earning under 28k a year and will be paying the same % as some people in the private sector who are on four times my wages when you factor in the tax.

SkepticOne

doncarlos wrote: »

It is only a good pension if you remain in the private sector for the full or close to the 40years. A friend of mine in the banking sector gets 66% of his final wage rather than the 50% the civil service get for 40 years service (1/40th of 50% per year of service. I am paying the same amount per month as him. I also started a private pension too as the pension i would have gotten at retirement age was only €100 per week more than the state pension.

Defined benefit pensions in the private sector are extremely rare. Defined contribution is the norm. You can't buy the sort of thing that the civil service get on the open market because if you could it would have to be ludicrously expensive to cover the risk. What civil servants are being asked to contribute even with the levy is still only a fraction of what it really costs.

holly1

It looks to me like its gotten to the stage where its Public V Private or Private V Public(which everway you like).At a time like this it should be all for one and one for all,after all we are all trying to protect our jobs and livelyhoods.Its a very difficult time for the Nation and we are all trying to survive.United we stand Divided we fall.

Daroxtar

gazzer wrote: »

Now that the pension levy has been announced and with the amount of people in the private sector taking pay cuts do you reckon we are now going to see pay cuts been implented in areas of the private sector where it hasnt yet happened and my not warrant a pay cut(i.e businesses not in trouble)?

What I am getting at is that none of my family or friends in the private sector have taken a pay cut or lost a job. They all seem to be pretty confidant that things are good and going to stay that way. However do you think that employers will now turn around and try to impose pay cuts (using the fact that other people are now taking pay cuts and paying a pension levy).

What kind of jobs are your family and friends in? They are utterly deluded if they think all their jobs are safe unless they are doctors or undertakers.
10% of the population is now unemployed so unless you belong to a fairly elite and sheltered sector then someone you know is suffering.
If you dont know anybody who is getting sacked or laid off then here's a big HELLO from me. I had to change jobs last easter because the company was going bust. in 2007 i made 50k. last year i made 40k. I got let go at christmas from the new job because of lack of business.
just in case you cant do the math, that a 20% wage cut followed by a 100% wage cut. And you're looking for further cuts?????
Why not swap jobs with me?