Private Sector staff yet to get a pay cut(will it be easier to implement now?)

jmayo

The more I see some of the posts on here about why should public sector take cuts or how come private sector are not taking cuts like us sh***, the more I think our education system is a pile of sh***.

Some people have a problem with basic arithmetic.
Money coming into state coffers < Money going out of state coffers.

I have asked numerous times of the ardent public sector supporters
"Where will the money come from to pay them and their pensions ? "
As of yet only a few have come back with anything constructive, most pro public sector posters ignore this little issue. :rolleyes:

Private sector takes care of itself, usually aloong the lines of :
no sales = no jobs.
lower sales = lower wages and some job losses.

Public sector workers appear to want ....
lower revenue income = no job losses, no lowering wages, even increases in wages because we agreed it back in good times.

See anything wrong with these ?

ParkRunner

Daroxtar wrote: »

10% of the population is now unemployed so unless you belong to a fairly elite and sheltered sector then someone you know is suffering.
If you dont know anybody who is getting sacked or laid off then here's a big HELLO from me. I had to change jobs last easter because the company was going bust. in 2007 i made 50k. last year i made 40k. I got let go at christmas from the new job because of lack of business.
just in case you cant do the math, that a 20% wage cut followed by a 100% wage cut. And you're looking for further cuts?????
Why not swap jobs with me?

Maybe the 50k and the 40k pay packet (above the civil service average) is why the pay cut is now 100%, simply too expensive! In addition, there are profit making public service organisations, which employ hard-working dedicated staff and these have been hit by the levy also. A post earlier saying to hit a similar private sector organisation would destroy morale or words to those effect so you can see why a portion of civil servants wish to question the levy with their local TD's on a Saturday.

Pension levy = less money for civil servants to spend = less money being spent on goods and services in the private sector = more job losses = more money taken off civil servants to pay for social welfare payments = a vicious circle in my opinion

jimmmy

murphaph wrote: »

Yet the public sector unions want to strike. I'll go in and boo and jeer any public servants who have the nerve to strike or protest I swear I will.

So will I. No if's, no buts.

ixoy

EF wrote: »

A post earlier saying to hit a similar private sector organisation would destroy morale or words to those effect so you can see why a portion of civil servants wish to question the levy with their local TD's on a Saturday.

Yes it does damage morale - I can attest to that. So can many private sector workers. The difference is the private sector would start fearing that the next cut would be 100% whereas the public sector (those not contracted, which is many) don't have that worry. I'd still rather receive a small cut than a full cut.

Pension levy = less money for civil servants to spend = less money being spent on goods and services in the private sector = more job losses = more money taken off civil servants to pay for social welfare payments = a vicious circle in my opinion

Agreed, it's a balancing act. At the same time, you could then use warped logic and turn us all into employees of the state so that we all have money to spend...

nesf

ixoy wrote: »

Agreed, it's a balancing act. At the same time, you could then use warped logic and turn us all into employees of the state so that we all have money to spend...

FF tried that in the 80s.

ParkRunner

ixoy wrote: »

Yes it does damage morale - I can attest to that. So can many private sector workers. The difference is the private sector would start fearing that the next cut would be 100% whereas the public sector (those not contracted, which is many) don't have that worry. I'd still rather receive a small cut than a full cut.


Agreed, it's a balancing act. At the same time, you could then use warped logic and turn us all into employees of the state so that we all have money to spend...

And yet the public service is being bashed again for wanting to let their feelings be known to their local TD's on a Saturday? A nation of civil servants is obviously impossible and the money now taken away as a pension levy will need to be very carefully spent! If it used to recapitalise the banks the money might as well be spent on overseas aid in my opinion. For everyones sake I hope it is invested in infrastructure projects

nesf

EF wrote: »

And yet the public service is being bashed again for wanting to let their feelings be known to their local TD's on a Saturday? A nation of civil servants is obviously impossible and the money now taken away as a pension levy will need to be very carefully spent! If it used to recapitalise the banks the money might as well be spent on overseas aid in my opinion. For everyones sake I hope it is invested in infrastructure projects

I'd agree completely with you if we had a balanced budget at the moment, but we don't. Government needs to raise revenues and/or cut expenditure. It's going to be impossible for them to balance the budget without either reducing the demand (by either cutting Public Servant salaries or taxing everyone's) or reducing supply by cutting services. It's a vicious circle but there's no way out of it.

ParkRunner

nesf wrote: »

I'd agree completely with you if we had a balanced budget at the moment, but we don't. Government needs to raise revenues and/or cut expenditure. It's going to be impossible for them to balance the budget without either reducing the demand (by either cutting Public Servant salaries or taxing everyone's) or reducing supply by cutting services. It's a vicious circle but there's no way out of it.

The fairest way therefore in my opinion would be a combination of a lower pension levy on the public service than has been proposed and a raise in taxes, in particular the higher rate. Those at the very bottom of the civil service payscale are being asked to pay a disproportionate amount, when the wealthy who can afford to make a contribution are not being asked for anything apart from the income levy which everyone pays.

dresden8

The government, IBEC and the indo have made great play over the last few months about how "WE" must share the pain.

The above parties have spent the last six months softening up the public sector for their "share of the pain".

It's landed.

Some of the Private Sector have been laid off. Some have had pay-cuts. No-one is disputing that.

Some however, are still receiving pay increases and bonuses.

Do you not think the above parties, having inflicted "shared pain" on one sector will not move on to "share the pain" with all sectors, particularly the private sector who are "lucky" enough to have held onto their jobs and pay, through the sound economic management of the country and the altruism of their employers?

If the private sector "fatcats" ("fatcats" has now come to mean low to middle paid workers by the way) think the government isn't coming for them shortly then you deserve another five years of Fianna Fail.

nesf

dresden8 wrote: »

Some however, are still receiving pay increases and bonuses.

Some semi-State workers are too though. Bless those ESB lads, working so hard to provide such cheap electricity...

I agree though, the pain will spread to the middle class private sector workers quite soon and the worse off after that. No way around it really, 20 billion is too big a gap to plug.

nesf

EF wrote: »

The fairest way therefore in my opinion would be a combination of a lower pension levy on the public service than has been proposed and a raise in taxes, in particular the higher rate. Those at the very bottom of the civil service payscale are being asked to pay a disproportionate amount, when the wealthy who can afford to make a contribution are not being asked for anything apart from the income levy which everyone pays.

Would you have a problem with the pension levy if everyone only got to claim 20% tax back off it?

ParkRunner

nesf wrote: »

Would you have a problem with the pension levy if everyone only got to claim 20% tax back off it?

Are you saying that everyone should only get 20% tax relief for the pension levy? Ill be paying the levy myself just to clarify that, my only big problem with it is that the public sector have been hit in its entirety and that the lower paid are making a disproportionate contribution. The entire private sector have not made a contribution but this could be done through income tax. That was my point.
If the wealthy civil servants were to only receive 20% tax relief that would be a bit fairer but they could still easily afford that, whereas a lower paid civil servant is taking a much more severe hit in terms of how much they can afford

NewDubliner

SkepticOne wrote: »

Defined benefit pensions in the private sector are extremely rare. .... What civil servants are being asked to contribute even with the levy is still only a fraction of what it really costs.

What about the Contributory Social Welfare pension? It's a defined benefit scheme and most private sector workers pay into it and beneifit from it. The money is paid from taxation, just like public service pensions and is not based on the amount of money paid in.

When private sector workers talk about pension plans they mean occupational pensions which are paid on top of the DSW pension. These reason these are collapsing is that they were based on investment in shares which profitted from property speculation and asset stripping of public companies. Everyone in the country was subsidising these plans through inflated prices used to drive profits back to the shareholders.

nesf

EF wrote: »

Are you saying that everyone should only get 20% tax relief for the pension levy? Ill be paying the levy myself just to clarify that, my only big problem with it is that the public sector have been hit in its entirety and that the lower paid are making a disproportionate contribution. The entire private sector have not made a contribution but this could be done through income tax. That was my point.

Ah, I thought you were complaining about how after you take in the disparity between those who can get 20% and those who can get 41% relief that some lower earners pay more it terms of tax home pay than those who earn a few thousand more than them. Which is fairly disproportionate.


On your second point, the private sector aren't paid out of Government Expenditure so the reality is different in this situation. The money isn't there to pay the public service pay bill so it needs to be reduced either through job losses or pay cuts. Also, don't worry we'll be hit by taxes, reductions in reliefs and such soon enough, I think FF is choosing to fight one battle at a time but they're going to come to those of us in the private sector when looking for much of the rest of the deficit.

dresden8

nesf wrote: »

Also, don't worry we'll be hit by taxes, reductions in reliefs and such soon enough, I think FF is choosing to fight one battle at a time but they're going to come to those of us in the private sector when looking for much of the rest of the deficit.

Indeed. Many threads on this board and "another" contain much schadenfreude from the private sector about how the ps deserve to get screwed and how much they deserve it.

Well, when the government comes for the private sector I hope they don't expect too much sympathy from the public sector.

Well and truly divided and conquered.

Must be Ireland.

First item on the agenda, The split.

Daroxtar

EF wrote: »

Maybe the 50k and the 40k pay packet (above the civil service average) is why the pay cut is now 100%, simply too expensive!

considering i worked 7am to 6pm monday to friday and 8-5 on saturday and threw in a pile of sundays too i dont consider it too expensive at all. I call that breaking my bolox. what would a junior civil servant get for them hours? did i mention that i got no paid sick leave either?

Cicero

Think the title of this thread is very misguided- it sounds (even if that was not the intention) that the private sector have somehow 'got off' to date....Defined benefit pensions are relatively rare outside the public sector- retail bank staff used to have them but new bank staff only have defined contribution pensions..with many people moving to 3 days weeks in many industries coupled with a reduced pay packet, many more having to take a cut in pay, and others loosing their jobs, I think that the few people out there in the private sector who have defined benefit pensions are worried about a lot more than just a pension levey...in fact, if that was the worst thing to happen to them in the next 5 years, they would feel very pleased with themselves.

NewDubliner

seamus wrote: »

People can survive with only a portion of their liver intact. I've never heard of anyone surviving on half a heart.

The problem is one of cholesterol and obesity.

Our standard of living is unsustainable. We need to give up the big, expensive-to-heat houses in satellite towns, the long road-clogging commutes, the expensive holidays, the foreign designer goods and cars and move closer to concentrated areas of employment where services can be provided with much less transport cost and a pool of labour talent is readily available.

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

So will I. No if's, no buts.

i believe thier is a protest planned outside my local fianna fails td,s office on the 14th febuary , i will be there on the opposite of the street shouting

GO BACK TO WORK SACRED COWS , GO BACK TO WORK SACRED COWS

you have to have your own slogans to counter the public servant slogans

WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS , THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREAMED IT DURING THE BOOOM

kippy

I work in the public sector.

This has to be one of the DAFTEST posts in this forum...
For gods sake. Has the OP not seen the unemployment figures?

Thankfully the majority of my friends who work in the Private sector are still in jobs, have had salary increases and are getting bonus this year. I wouldnt wish anything else on them, their companies are doing well, at the moment anyway. Without them doing well the tax take would be lower.

I can take a hit for a very very good pension that they can only dream off.


This thread really does begger belief and highlights the lack of understanding of the whole situation by what I have to say, a large amount of public sector workers.

Agent J

We really have to stop this public sector vs private sector bickering.

The government is the enemy here.

However if you really need convincing that the public sector is getting its pay cut

Dell 1900 people
Waterford crystal 300+
Chartbusters, ZAvvi, Ericsson, Tara mines etc etc

Etc etc.

All of these and more got a 100% pay cut.

How many of the 33,000 people who signed on in december were public sector workers again?

Either public sector pay is cut or we have to start firing a lot of them.
Pick one. Either you all suffer some pain or a few of you suffer a lot of pain.

Private sector just gets a p45.

Oh one more thing.
Where the hell did the money from benchmarking come from? Trees?
We can no longer afford to fund it since our tax base has all but collasped.

Now are we done with the self indignant rant? Most people who have lost their jobs would trade their souls to have a public sector job.

Lets back to the task at hand. The government led people down this path. They should be 1st on the list to be sorted.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

We need to give up the big, expensive-to-heat houses in satellite towns, the long road-clogging commutes, the expensive holidays, the foreign designer goods and cars and move closer to concentrated areas of employment where services can be provided with much less transport cost and a pool of labour talent is readily available.

So then we need to build more houses to enable us to move closer to these places - uh oh here we go again

SkepticOne

NewDubliner wrote: »

When private sector workers talk about pension plans they mean occupational pensions which are paid on top of the DSW pension. These reason these are collapsing is that they were based on investment in shares which profitted from property speculation and asset stripping of public companies. Everyone in the country was subsidising these plans through inflated prices used to drive profits back to the shareholders.

Regardless of what you invest money in, you can't purchase a defined benefit scheme on the open market. You must take your chances.

ParkRunner

Agent J wrote: »

Either public sector pay is cut or we have to start firing a lot of them.
Pick one. Either you all suffer some pain or a few of you suffer a lot of pain.

Private sector just gets a p45.

.

The Irish Examiner has learned that in the first payments to Bank of Ireland workers since Finance Minister Brian Lenihan’s controversial multibillion euro December bailout, 6,000 branch workers received a 3.5% pay rise backdated to last November — meaning up to €10m more will be paid out to bank officials this year.

It has also emerged that BoI and Allied Irish Bank have paid out €500,000 each for corporate boxes at the new Lansdowne Road stadium.

As seen in the Banking & Insurance & Pensions forum thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055482311

ionix5891

DublinWriter wrote: »

A lot of self-employed in the private sector (myself included) have taken pay cuts of between 5% and 10% on client work this year.

I don't know if you've noticed, but 1000's of people are losing their jobs here on a weekly basis in the private sector.

As mentioned in another thread my company seen huge drop in earnings while costs are higher

Were not worried about a paycut here or even pension but how to stay afloat for few months and not go bankrupt

murphaph

EF wrote: »

The Irish Examiner has learned that in the first payments to Bank of Ireland workers since Finance Minister Brian Lenihan’s controversial multibillion euro December bailout, 6,000 branch workers received a 3.5% pay rise backdated to last November — meaning up to €10m more will be paid out to bank officials this year.

It has also emerged that BoI and Allied Irish Bank have paid out €500,000 each for corporate boxes at the new Lansdowne Road stadium.

As seen in the Banking & Insurance & Pensions forum thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055482311

Funny. You clearly see the banks as being private sector whereas I see them as public sector (underwritten by me, the private sector taxpayer, just like the public service). The banks are not the private sector in reality, nothing with a state guarantee can be considered truly private sector, can it? The private sector are sme's who get no bailouts, guarantees or breaks at all. If they fail, they fail.

ParkRunner

murphaph wrote: »

Funny. You clearly see the banks as being private sector whereas I see them as public sector (underwritten by me, the private sector taxpayer, just like the public service). The banks are not the private sector in reality, nothing with a state guarantee can be considered truly private sector, can it? The private sector are sme's who get no bailouts, guarantees or breaks at all. If they fail, they fail.

So should all their pay increases should be honoured under the Towards 2016 agreement?

ionix5891

murphaph wrote: »

Funny. You clearly see the banks as being private sector whereas I see them as public sector (underwritten by me, the private sector taxpayer, just like the public service). The banks are not the private sector in reality, nothing with a state guarantee can be considered truly private sector, can it? The private sector are sme's who get no bailouts, guarantees or breaks at all. If they fail, they fail.

whats the world coming too i have to agree with murphaph despite our past disagreements on other topics

anotherlostie

When the public servants have the sword of Damocles that is the possibility of redundancy hanging over them, I'll have some sympathy. My sister also works with a planning office. 2 years ago they were tripping over themselves with work. Now it comes in dribs and drabs. Yet there are more people working there than ever. How many fewer civil servants work in Revenue since we all started doing the work ourselves online?

I have a job today. On Monday I could be told I'm being made redundant. I would argue that that would be easier for a private sector employer to do than make people take a pay cut (just work the rest harder). Not the case when you have a 'job for life'.

Agent J

EF wrote: »

The Irish Examiner has learned that in the first payments to Bank of Ireland workers since Finance Minister Brian Lenihan’s controversial multibillion euro December bailout, 6,000 branch workers received a 3.5% pay rise backdated to last November — meaning up to €10m more will be paid out to bank officials this year.

It has also emerged that BoI and Allied Irish Bank have paid out €500,000 each for corporate boxes at the new Lansdowne Road stadium.

As seen in the Banking & Insurance & Pensions forum thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055482311

And the banking sector is of course the entire private sector right?

And you completely ignore my point about the massive layoffs in other areas of the private sector.