Private Sector staff yet to get a pay cut(will it be easier to implement now?)

Agent J

Thats also like me comparing the same thing that happened in ESB with the pay rises to the entire public sector.

How dare the public sector give themsevles 3.5% pay raise(!).....*









* before anyone reacts im not serious. I know the ESB isnt the whole of the public sector and only a small part so i would never over generalise like that.

ParkRunner

Agent J wrote: »

And the banking sector is of course the entire private sector right?

And you completely ignore my point about the massive layoffs in other areas of the private sector.

Correct, the banking sector is not the entire private sector and it shows that parts of the private sector are not taking the pain, whereas the entire public sector is

joolsveer

I had a quick look at the ESB web site and it doesn't say anything about the ESB being part of the public sector.

ixoy

EF wrote: »

Correct, the banking sector is not the entire private sector and it shows that parts of the private sector are not taking the pain, whereas the entire public sector is

True, but by that token: Should those areas of the private sector that have taken cuts also be subject to additional levies or taxes? Should they be forced to essentially take two cuts but the public sector only one?

ParkRunner

ixoy wrote: »

True, but by that token: Should those areas of the private sector that have taken cuts also be subject to additional levies or taxes? Should they be forced to essentially take two cuts but the public sector only one?

No they shouldn't, that's why in my opinion a rise in income tax or a restructuring of it would have been fairer in my opinion, or a combination of a lower pension levy on the public sector and a small rise in income tax. A rise in income tax will probably happen in the next budget anyway so the public sector will be paying this too, with a pause in pay, on top of the income levy and pension levy. A quadruple whammy.

Agent J

EF wrote: »

Correct, the banking sector is not the entire private sector and it shows that parts of the private sector are not taking the pain, whereas the entire public sector is

Uh huh. And if they decided to cut a couple of thosand jobs in the public sector then it would only be part of the public sector taking the pain.

Thats the choice the government have. Either spread the pain out the whole public sector or cut jobs in the public sector.

Which do you want?

I'm private sector and if i was told to take a 10% pay cut or risk losing my job i know which one i would take.

joolsveer wrote:

I had a quick look at the ESB web site and it doesn't say anything about the ESB being part of the public sector.

Thats nice.

Who owns the ESB?

Dr Galen

yet another politics thread turns into a public Vs private sector bashfest. Lads get a grip, we're all going to get screwed this year and more than likely next year too. Suck it up short term but when the local elections come round it'll be time to stand up and make the votes count. If FF get any sort of a decent polling result from that, then the country deserves what it gets.

As for the OP, i know several companies using the "recession" as a stick. Cutting back spending, no pay rises etc, but then maybe its a prudent thing in the present climate, stick a bit in the back pocket ready for a rainy (rainier) day.

nesf

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

As for the OP, i know several companies using the "recession" as a stick. Cutting back spending, no pay rises etc, but then maybe its a prudent thing in the present climate, stick a bit in the back pocket ready for a rainy (rainier) day.

Well for a lot of companies who aren't very profitable the sensible thing to do is to not aware pay rises and hold tough for the moment and see how this pans out. Not awarding a pay rise now might mean fewer lay offs needed a year down the road, also it's much harder to cut pay after giving people a raise to not give them the raise in the first place, as the Government is finding out first hand at the moment. With the plummet in inflation the justification for cost of living increases has disappeared anyway.

PYRO#1

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

yet another politics thread turns into a public Vs private sector bashfest. Lads get a grip, we're all going to get screwed this year and more than likely next year too. Suck it up short term

I couldnt agree more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QUIT TURNING THIS INTO PUBLIC V PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Im paying my taxes and therefore paying public sector wages. I work for Dell and my girlfriend is a nurse in the public sector.
In july im losing my job so the public sector can give me some cash until i can find work and pay my taxes again!:D
We need to pull together and look after each other! Everyone is feeling the pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cop on and stand together for once!:mad:

Agent J

Oh i hate this public sector vs private sector squabbling but i cannot stand a public sector mentality that they are being picked on and are the only ones suffering through out this.

The Raven.

Agent J wrote: »

Who owns the ESB?

It's a semi-state company. Here is some information. I don't know how up to date it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Supply_Board

Agent J

The Raven. wrote: »

It's a semi-state company. Here is some information. I don't know how up to date it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_Supply_Board

Yes. The Government owns the ESB. They have overall control over it.
SO one group of government workers have taken the pay increase and the rest havent.

My point was calling that the whole private sector is guilty because BOI pays the same agreement that ESB(A state company) has paid own is a little rich.
Its like making the same generaliastion and accusation of the public sector because of the ESBs actions.

Dr Galen

nesf wrote: »

Well for a lot of companies who aren't very profitable the sensible thing to do is to not aware pay rises and hold tough for the moment and see how this pans out. Not awarding a pay rise now might mean fewer lay offs needed a year down the road, also it's much harder to cut pay after giving people a raise to not give them the raise in the first place, as the Government is finding out first hand at the moment. With the plummet in inflation the justification for cost of living increases has disappeared anyway.

i'd pretty much agree with you on this. The drop in inflation should certainly amount to a "pay rise" for most people, though I've yet to see real price deflation as such in most day to day prices. Oil price drops have added more to the drop in inflation than I think is being factored in

Ardent

LookingFor wrote: »

The government doesn't employ people in the private sector. It's not up to them to decide on private sector pay cuts. Companies will make their own individual decisions depending on their own needs - and they are, clearly, every day doing so now.

If you're employed by the government, your renumeration is subject to the health of the government's finances, just as a private sector employes renumeration AND job security are linked to their company's financial health.

Public sector employees baying for private sector blood are barking up the wrong tree, boxing with shadows. It's like Erricsson employees today, for example, wondering why Motorola employees don't get laid off or have pay cuts, and claiming how it's not fair that they aren't. It's really childish. The private sector is not their enemy.

Good post. Perfectly answers the OP.

ixoy

EF wrote: »

No they shouldn't, that's why in my opinion a rise in income tax or a restructuring of it would have been fairer in my opinion, or a combination of a lower pension levy on the public sector and a small rise in income tax.

Okay then another question:

A company, let's say the ESB for hypothesis, is losing money. Everyone in Ireland is its customer. It has two choices: A) reduce its worker pay (yes, ironic in this example - bear with me) or raise its prices. As a worker, you'd rather option B but most other companies are choosing option A. Would you not see why private sector workers are irritated that when the government then choose option A but all the workers demand option B (price increases through greater taxes)? Option A only affects a small set of people, but option B is demanding everyone takes the pain just because their own employers screwed up.

Hillel

kippy wrote: »

This thread really does begger belief and highlights the lack of understanding of the whole situation by what I have to say, a large amount of public sector workers.

A high proportion of Public Servants went into the public service straight from school and simply don't understand the many differences between the public and private sectors. Their union representatives are not doing them any favours either, with selective and misleading comparisons with the Terms and Conditions of the private sector. Normally, this is a standard negotiating tactic. However, in the current crisis, we could reasonably expect better leadership from people in positions of influence. The public sector negotiators know the real situation very well. They would be doing their membership, and the country, a great service if they took a more balanced position. Instead, their approach is fermenting totally unnecessary discontent in their membership - I truly believe that this is self-serving and unpatriotic.

I recognise, and appreciate, the dedicated and valuable work that a high proportion of public servants carry out. I worked in the public service myself and do not want boards, or indeed the country, locked in a public sector vs private sector standoff. That benefits no one, and can be ill-afforded given the mess that the country is now in.

However, it is essential that "established" public sector staff realise that the game has well and truly moved on for their non-permanent colleagues - and for the majority of employees in the private sector. Many have lost their jobs, others are at daily risk of losing them. Most of the remainder have seen their Pension Funds savaged, with falls of 50%+ over the past couple of years. Most of these would gladly pay the Pension Levy, if they could be guaranteed a reasonable pension on retirement.

ParkRunner

ixoy wrote: »

Okay then another question:

A company, let's say the ESB for hypothesis, is losing money. Everyone in Ireland is its customer. It has two choices: A) reduce its worker pay (yes, ironic in this example - bear with me) or raise its prices. As a worker, you'd rather option B but most other companies are choosing option A. Would you not see why private sector workers are irritated that when the government then choose option A but all the workers demand option B (price increases through greater taxes)? Option A only affects a small set of people, but option B is demanding everyone takes the pain just because their own employers screwed up.

Could they not be innovative and come up with new ways of generating cash and work as a third option? Just as an example off the top of my head look what itunes has done for Apple. I don't wish it upon anyone to lose their jobs, I'm just a bit shocked at the level of sustained public sector bashing.

Hillel

EF wrote: »

I don't wish it upon anyone to lose their jobs, I'm just a bit shocked at the level of sustained public sector bashing.

An open debate about the private vs the public sector is urgently needed and is NOT "public sector bashing".

ParkRunner

Hillel wrote: »

An open debate about the private vs the public sector is urgently needed and is NOT "public sector bashing".

That wasn't directed at you personally. A 5 minute look around boards even will show what I mean.

ParkRunner

Agent J wrote: »

Uh huh. And if they decided to cut a couple of thosand jobs in the public sector then it would only be part of the public sector taking the pain.

Thats the choice the government have. Either spread the pain out the whole public sector or cut jobs in the public sector.

Which do you want?

I'm private sector and if i was told to take a 10% pay cut or risk losing my job i know which one i would take.
QUOTE]

Just out of interest, have you taken a pay cut yourself?

Hillel

EF wrote: »

That wasn't directed at you personally. A 5 minute look around boards even will show what I mean.

Fair comment, and I agree with you.

ixoy

EF wrote: »

Could they not be innovative and come up with new ways of generating cash and work as a third option? Just as an example off the top of my head look what itunes has done for Apple. I don't wish it upon anyone to lose their jobs, I'm just a bit shocked at the level of sustained public sector bashing.

Suggest away, by all means. I don't think we can do something like iTunes though. The problem is that many in the CS/PS want a solution that shares the pain, but were the private sector to do something similar (raise prices instead of cutting wages/jobs), they'd be up in arms, especially if that company was in a virtual monopoly and they had no option to go anywhere else.

Cicero

From listening to RTE 1 radio at lunchtime today, the key gripe that seemed to come out was 'fairness' i.e if public sector is taxed on pensions, why not everyone else. ...!!!

It would appear that a 'tally' is being kept in some people's minds, on how bad the economy is affecting 'Public' Vs 'Private' sector workers. ..I think in February 2009, Job seecurity and future employability are the only issues that should concentrate the minds of INDIVIDUALS- Public or Private.

There are qualified Nurses, Teachers etc who cannot get employment- likewise, in the public sector, carpenters, Architects, and others are equally at sea with employment prospects..

There just doesn't seem any sense talking about public vs private here...

Hillel

Cicero wrote: »

From listening to RTE 1 radio at lunchtime today, the key gripe that seemed to come out was 'fairness' i.e if public sector is taxed on pensions, why not everyone else. ...!!!

It would appear that a 'tally' is being kept in some people's minds, on how bad the economy is affecting 'Public' Vs 'Private' sector workers. ..I think in February 2009, Job seecurity and future employability are the only issues that should concentrate the minds of INDIVIDUALS- Public or Private.

There are qualified Nurses, Teachers etc who cannot get employment- likewise, in the public sector, carpenters, Architects, and others are equally at sea with employment prospects..

There just doesn't seem any sense talking about public vs private here...

I too heard that program - that was why I wrote my earlier post.
As far as I am concerned, some of those participating had no ones interest, other than their own, at heart. The debate was entirely spurious and unhelpful. The country is crying out for some real credible leadership at every level. The real issue is not public vs private it is how can we spread the load around as fairly as possible and begin what could be a long painful journey towards recovery.